DO NOT BUY anything from AV123

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M

mhawker

Audioholic
If they go, so does the warranty.

Unless, of course whoever takes over (if anyone) assumes that responsibility.
 
C

Chu Gai

Audioholic Samurai
You might find the following two items

Corporate Bankruptcy

Bankruptcy FAQ

to provide some answers. One really can't tell if this TADQ is a stall tactic or an actual attempt to involve other parties (Arte Forma) to fund or assist in the development of products. My attempts, and those of some others I know, to contact Arte Forma, have been in vain. From all I can tell, Arte Forma is nothing more than a family business that imports both furniture (Windsor, GA) and some audio equipment from asian manufacturer, Hans Labs. The audio equipment that I've seen is mostly tube based and has been found for sale on Audiogon. Whether that was in order to get rid of demo equipment or simply to liquidate whatever stock they had because they're just not catching on, I don't know. To me anyways, the inability to establish either phone or email contact is not inspiring.

This is the way I see it because I'm not a glass half full or half empty type of guy - I just don't see that there's a glass to begin with. If the whole Arte Forma thing is legit, maybe it buys Longmont a little bit of time. If it's not legit, and by now everyone has got to know that Schifter was completely full of sh!t in all those internet and magazine interviews, then Longmont is looking to sell off as many assets as it can (mostly the ELT stuff that's been laying around forever) at the best possible price prior to shutting its doors.

The smartest thing you can do if you're owed something from them is to take a two-pronged approach. The first, if your debt warrants it, is to file a lawsuit - small claims if need be (go to the damned Colorado website and find out how to do it for god's sake already) - against the company. Have it served on Suzanne Johnson as she is a registered AV451 representative and officer and at least she hasn't been indicted. The second is to also go to the Colorado AG's website and look at the sections that deal with consumer protection and start making some phone calls to see what can be done.

As you're doing the above, do the smart thing and get yourself organized. Establish a written or typed timeline of what happened - a chain of events if you will. Print out all your email correspondence that substantiates this timeline and get it in order. Put it in a folder with sticky tabs for easy reference. It'll be useful for both approaches.

Now, there are some of you who are thinking to themselves, how can I file a small claims if I'm out of state? This can be done over the web and you'll see how to do it if you just put a little effort into it. There will be some who will say, but yeah, I can do that but it's going to take money and time for travel. Well, you're right it will and it just might be that if you're owed a few hundred, it's not going to make much financial sense. Some relief in that case may be able to be obtained when filing your taxes. For those who are owed a few thousand though (limits for small claims are up to $7,500), taking the lawsuit approach just might be a calculated gamble with a relatively small downside. You're going to get a court date after the papers are served and you'll be kept apprised if there are delays. Use Expedia and especially look into Southwest Air for flights on that date from wherever you live. In fact, do it now to get a handle on what the RT costs would be say 2 weeks or a month from now. Most of you have got vacation and sick time. So you'll burn a couple of days. Like you haven't ever called in sick when you're feeling fine? The Boulder area is a lovely part of the country which can provide some compensation. The thing here is folks, even if you don't collect right on the spot after you win, and win you will, your status then becomes one of a secured creditor. That means in a bankrupty proceeding, after the legal costs to do so are paid, during any liquidation you're at the front of the line for what's left.

Also, something else to keep in mind here. Since you've got all your records, virtually any lawyer in the phone book offers a free 30 minute or so consultation. Find one and see what they recommend. Time is of the essence here so find some time this weekend for heaven's sake and get yourself organized like I suggested above. You've been waiting for what? 6 months? 1 year? 2 years? 3 years? Each day you wait is one day closer to that time when it won't matter what you do. You want to worry about their family? Let someone else do it for you. This isn't personal. It's business.
 
wshuff

wshuff

Audioholic
I don't know if Chu Gai is a lawyer, or if he just stayed at a Holiday Inn Express, but I think what he recommends is spot on for those who are out money and still waiting on product. Sometimes it isn't kicking a man when he's down . . . sometimes it is returning a kick to the guy who kicked you. Start kicking.
 
C

Chu Gai

Audioholic Samurai
I'm not a lawyer. Folks have been given the run around by Suzy-Q and by her directives, whatever staff winds up being contacted there, parrots the line. Let's consider the following. Back when folks were buying products and found their payments going either to either MLS or through the Graham Company, which for all intents and purposes is MLS, they never once thought the product wasn't covered under warranty. So, when some had problems and they contacted AV451, they were told by General Suzy-Q "Sorry, that was sold through Mark. You'll have to contact him directly with the issue." Well that didn't go over too well on the forums and folks started *****ing there and elsewhere. Now that there was a public stink, the products suddenly became warranteed under AV451 and you could get replacements.

Folks, there's been precedents set as you can see. So when you hear good old Suzy playing the Pontious Pilate routine and washing her (AV451's) hands of the matter, think again. For the RSL-II folks and some of you others, initial parts may've been paid for by MLS but they were ordered by AV451. The products were promoted on AV451 using company resources to do so. There's been more than enough commingling of funds and smoke bombs being thrown around. So, by all means, try going after AV451 if you like. If you don't like it, go after MLS directly. Look, he's managed to pay about $4500 to put a temporary halt on the foreclosure of his house. He's still paying the bills like his first mortgage, utiliites, and food. He's got his house as an asset for now. If he winds up defaulting on his house, so what? The banks will have to sell it at auction. The first and second mortgage people will get their cuts and there'll be some money left over. When you win your lawsuti, and you will, you'll be a secured creditor and you'll be next in line to take your cut. Stop caring about what happens to him and his family. They didn't care about you when they porked you in the backdoor.
 
tesseract

tesseract

Audioholic
The LS-4 Product Information thread is now a sticky. This thread, started by TADG, is one that many recent bans took place in.
 
C

Chu Gai

Audioholic Samurai
Of course, even if you're owed something and use legal means to go after it,

you're probably a bad person. If you write about it on different forums, you're a bad person. Mark knows who you are and he knows what you're really trying to do. Why, just look how psychic he's been in the past.

In this thread, dated 11/27/09 MLS wrote the following,

There are people out there working very hard to hurt this company (and me personally)... I know EXACTLY who they are (even though they don't think so) and at the appropriate moment I'll surely have my say...
In this thread, dated 9/11/09 MLS wrote the following,

There is no need to hurt of harm... everyone here (me included) is doing what they can to deliver and be timely - there is a good deal of evidence about this...

There have been threads started by others (not you) that were attempts to hurt and harm... The Dr. Zolht thread was one of them - and others also... I'm too busy dealing with the business side of making sure our business is on solid footing everywhere to deal with some of this... I'm sorry - just no time... (I apologize to you and everyone for saying it the way I did)...
So, I'll understand if all this effort is too much for you. If you're internally torn by a sense of guilt for daring to contact Colorado consumer protection services to complain and seek assitance, maybe you shouldn't. Because YOU would be one of those looking to hurt Mark and his company. And how can you do that after having talked to him on the phone these many years? Is the measly $1,500 or $6,000 that you and scores of others are owed worth putting AV451 out of business? Why, look at all the trouble that has happened just because Pu stopped supplying AV451 over a measly $1 million dollars. Now folks can't get certain replacement drivers. And look at all this trouble that the legal system is causing for Mark over the few bucks that didn't go to the charities. Now he's got to divert resources that would've gone to moving forwards with great new products.

So, with it being Sunday, just stay unorganized. Don't bother going TO THIS LINK or calling them repeatedly. In fact, don't tell anyone either bcause you'll hurt Mark and the company. Don't go after Suzanne either. She's only the CFO (Chief Financial Officer. What could a person who knows about the financial doings of the company have anything to do with your situation?

You've been doing fine these past months or years without the money anyways. You're used to it. So, write Mark a nice email and tell him you care about him and the company. Just tell them to keep the money. Right now they need it more than you.
 
wshuff

wshuff

Audioholic
There are people out there working very hard to hurt this company (and me personally)... I know EXACTLY who they are (even though they don't think so) and at the appropriate moment I'll surely have my say...
I guess the people out to hurt him were the prosecutors. Wonder if that means he intends to take the stand.
 
MinusTheBear

MinusTheBear

Audioholic Ninja
The BBB is listening folks!

The Better Business Bureau has changed 123's rating from A+ to B+ based on a complaint that was issued. Listen to Chu's advice folks - it is sound. Take action by whatever means necessary in hopes of getting your issue(s) resolved. As consumers you have rights and protection, use them. The last supper is approaching and time is dwindling.

http://www.bbb.org/denver/business-reviews/home-theater/av123-in-longmont-co-90099820
 
C

Chu Gai

Audioholic Samurai
I guess the people out to hurt him were the prosecutors. Wonder if that means he intends to take the stand.
Well, he's surely have more to say at the arraignment a little later next month. He'll be able to say guilty or not guilty. Let's hope they don't plea bargain this thing down and let's also look forward with great anticipation to the small claims matter which will occur a little later in April.
 
Jed M

Jed M

Full Audioholic
Why is the BBB trying to harm Mark now???

I can't wait until Mark can reveal the truth of who is really behind the BBB. They think he doesn't know, but he does. All in good time my friends, all in good time.
 
Stereodude

Stereodude

Senior Audioholic
I'm here in tears over the thought that there are so many people out to get TADG. I just can't believe the maliciousness of some people. TADG is just trying to live beyond his means on the backs of other people and you guys want to stop him. It's UNBELIEVABLE!!!
 
MinusTheBear

MinusTheBear

Audioholic Ninja
It looks like the BBB got involved in an attempt to resolve the situation as well. However 123 is not a BBB accredited business so I wonder if that limits the BBB's response/actions in any way. Anyways here is the BBB report/complaint.

These complaints concerned :
1 regarding Refund or Exchange Issues
1 - Failure to honor refund, exchange or credit policies


These complaints were closed as:
1 Unresolved
1 - Company failed to resolve the complaint issues through BBB voluntary and self-regulatory process.

B+ is about 75%-79%, thats still too high.
 
C

cmryan821

Junior Audioholic
It looks like the BBB got involved in an attempt to resolve the situation as well. However 123 is not a BBB accredited business so I wonder if that limits the BBB's response/actions in any way. Anyways here is the BBB report/complaint.

These complaints concerned :
1 regarding Refund or Exchange Issues
1 - Failure to honor refund, exchange or credit policies


These complaints were closed as:
1 Unresolved
1 - Company failed to resolve the complaint issues through BBB voluntary and self-regulatory process.

B+ is about 75%-79%, thats still too high.
I think that was my complaint. I knew it wouldn't actually solve anything but I got a little annoyed when some of his fanboys on avs pointed out the BBB A+ rating. As many of us already knew the BBB doesn't do anything other than act as a mediator between the complainant and the company. If the company is unwilling(as is the case here) the BBB can't make them do anything.
 
Stereodude

Stereodude

Senior Audioholic
As I'm sure many of you are aware, the BBB is funded by the member companies, so they have a vested interest in find in the favor of the people paying them. Their idea of a resolution is basically a joke too. On top of that they're basically a toothless organization. Anyone who puts much weight in a BBB rating doesn't understand the organization.
 
C

Chu Gai

Audioholic Samurai
As I'm sure many of you are aware, the BBB is funded by the member companies, so they have a vested interest in find in the favor of the people paying them. Their idea of a resolution is basically a joke too. On top of that they're basically a toothless organization. Anyone who puts much weight in a BBB rating doesn't understand the organization.
I can understand your point, Stereodude, but consider the following from a publicity POV with respect to AV451. An A rating makes the company look good to the public while a much lower rating makes them look badly. Further, as Minus noted, only one person, and that may well be cmryan821, bothered to spend the time, and it's not a whole lot, to file a complaint. Now, yes, there was no resolution and that might be expected. But by the same token, I'm somewhat dismayed that more people didn't even try to take the BBB approach among the many others over the years.
 
washburn

washburn

Audioholic
This is sadly true in many regards; people whine, but don't take the 5 min. to complete and online form or to email about things that bother them :(
Reminds me of the BMW owners (on forums) who whine about their fuel pump failures, but NHTSA hasn't received enough complaints to warrant ordering BMW to treat this problem as a recall! Same with Samsung switching various inferior panels on some models, you find hundreds of people complaining on forums, but only 5% might be actually doing something "official" about it.
 
droht

droht

Full Audioholic
I can understand your point, Stereodude, but consider the following from a publicity POV with respect to AV451. An A rating makes the company look good to the public while a much lower rating makes them look badly. Further, as Minus noted, only one person, and that may well be cmryan821, bothered to spend the time, and it's not a whole lot, to file a complaint. Now, yes, there was no resolution and that might be expected. But by the same token, I'm somewhat dismayed that more people didn't even try to take the BBB approach among the many others over the years.
Your dismay is shared Chu, fwiw. Equally dismaying is how some folks, who surely know what the deal is, continue to post over at av123 like it is the good old days.
 
C

Chu Gai

Audioholic Samurai
Your dismay is shared Chu, fwiw. Equally dismaying is how some folks, who surely know what the deal is, continue to post over at av123 like it is the good old days.
Ain't that the truth. I can sort of see it if you've got an issue or a question about the product you own but to hang out there and shoot the sh!t about your bathroom project or look to commiserate, well how desperate can you be to talk to people? I'll bet you could do a fair job at drawing analogies to Stockholm Syndrome.
 
T

tonygeno

Junior Audioholic
Your dismay is shared Chu, fwiw. Equally dismaying is how some folks, who surely know what the deal is, continue to post over at av123 like it is the good old days.
Although, given the current posting rate, if we did a reverse count of posts, i.e. each new post takes one away from the total, how many millennia do you think it would take to get to zero?
 
MinusTheBear

MinusTheBear

Audioholic Ninja
Considering the people that are out considerable money like those with the RSL II and others that still have not recieved their refunds. The BBB rating useless or not it does stand for something IMO, a high rating from them is not one that is deserved. 1 unresolved complaint dropped them down a full grade. Based on the overwhelming complaints regarding delivery of product, refunds as well as the illegal activity of a for profit organization conducting charity raffles on their company forum (state of Colorado), this company should be represented with a F grade. I am sure the BBB would be interested in hearing about the raffles as well.
 
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