B&W Nautilus vs Sonus Faber Cremonas

G

greggp2

Senior Audioholic
Calling out Greg for a GTG:D OH Major, its time
Will give you a shout tomorrow Scott. Was out of the office all day today on appointments. Tomorrow and Friday are pretty nuts too, but I should be in until lunch time tomorrow...
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
I'm glad to hear that. We actually DID try doing this, and in this particular case, found it did more good than harm. Of course, I would always recommend starting out with the best loudspeaker you can rather than trying to fix a bad one with EQ.
Any speaker shall benefit from these two EQ shelving filters, since optimal BSC varies in every specific environment/scenario. Ideal tweeter balance appears to be listener preference independent by a small degree also, and even if it was not, the actual specific amount of treble downward slope response at the listener position depends on the room acoustics/environment, once again. So having this adjustment is ideal.

It would be nice to see multi-way passive speaker system with both of these things having variable control settings.

-Chris
 
tonmeister

tonmeister

Audioholic
You are under the impression, it seems, that I made some blanket claim that price is directly correlated with as a consistent rule, off axis response improvement,etc.. I never made any such statement, so I do not know why you made your above statement.
What I did say, is that a speaker with the combination of a very low resonance cabinet system, superb off axis response, etc.; is rare and expensive.
Sorry if I misread your meaning. We seem to agree more than I thought. We agree that good loudspeaker off-axis response has little correlation with speaker cost. We also agree that an acoustically inert loudspeaker cabinet will result in increased costs due to increased damping materials, weight, shipping costs, etc.,

Where we may disagree is how important this is to the sound quality of the loudspeaker. My question is, "How mechanically inert/damped does the speaker cabinet have to be before you've reached the point of diminishing returns where there are no audible improvements when listening to music/speech/film signals?"

Is this something you have formally tested?

Years ago, Stanley Lipshitz and John Vanderkooy at the University of Waterloo did some experiments where they built and tested a number of loudspeaker cabinets of the same dimensions and volume that varied from being completely inert to being very flimsy with almost no bracing and thin cabinet panels. They then measured the effect of the different cabinet constructions on the measured acoustical response of the loudspeaker noting the change in frequency, level and Q of the resulting resonances. They found that the audibility of these resonances were in most cases below the absolute detection threshold of audibility for music signals using the threshold data from the resonance detection study Floyd Toole and I conducted at the NRC.

Lipshitz and Vanderkooy concluded that you could get away with loudspeaker cabinets that were relatively light-weight and flimsy as long as you had adequate bracing judiciously placed etc to make the resonances fall below their detection threshold.

This suggests that building massive speaker cabinets like the type you are describing may be overkill in terms of the audible benefits. It would be interesting if you could validate whether or not this is the case. Maybe you already have?

That is not to say, high-end (i.e. expensive) audio equipment shouldn't be heavy since may people associate the weight of the amplifier or loudspeaker or cable with its quality and how it will sound: Hearing is Believing is Lifting :)


I hate to tell you, but this still appears to be common practice (killing as many early reflections as possible as standard recommendation) from some places; Ethan Winer for example regularly promotes this; he owns the popular treatment company RealTraps. I have tried to debate with him in the past, offering perceptual research/studies from articles by you, Toole and other credible researchers, but he and many others still dismiss it. :confused:
-Chris
Yes, I'm aware that the room treatment people don't like to hear that early reflections can perceptually do good things to the sound quality, or at least do little or no harm. Psychoacoustics is just not good for their business since treating the customer's walls with acoustical treatment is more profitable than selling them paint.
 
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Mika75

Mika75

Audioholic
The loudspeaker on the left in the graph costs $500 a pair -- 1/16th the price of the 802N -- and while not perfect, has a much better on-axis and off-axis response.
Care to name that mystery loudspeaker Sean... :rolleyes:
 
TjMV3

TjMV3

Full Audioholic
So this guy's argument for the B & W speakers went from " take my word for it, they're superior. The ultimate neutral speaker "......

To......" Hey, they're no worse than anyone else " ....., LOL!

Oh brother:rolleyes:
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
So this guy's argument for the B & W speakers went from " take my word for it, they're superior. The ultimate neutral speaker "......

To......" Hey, they're no worse than anyone else " ....., LOL!

Oh brother:rolleyes:
No, the last part only applies to the off axis response characteristic(s). A compromise on the off axis response of the degree here is far less offensive than the horrible resonant behavior of most speakers(most speakers don't even use sufficient acoustic damping material - and use cabinets with braces spaced very far apart(and some use no braces at all), and side reflection treatments can improve most of the problems due to the off axis response at the expense of some timbre resolution and spatial collapse. Ideally, the 802 (or any high grade speaker) should combine the tight resonance control design with flat off axis power response. But ideals rarely occur in the real world.

-Chris
 
ParadigmDawg

ParadigmDawg

Audioholic Overlord
I have never seen you this laid back when someone argues about speakers. You normally eviscerate them....:confused:
No, the last part only applies to the off axis response characteristic(s). A compromise on the off axis response of the degree here is far less offensive than the horrible resonant behavior of most speakers(most speakers don't even use sufficient acoustic damping material - and use cabinets with braces spaced very far apart(and some use no braces at all), and side reflection treatments can improve most of the problems due to the off axis response at the expense of some timbre resolution and spatial collapse. Ideally, the 802 (or any high grade speaker) should combine the tight resonance control design with flat off axis power response. But ideals rarely occur in the real world.

-Chris
 
TjMV3

TjMV3

Full Audioholic
I have never seen you this laid back when someone argues about speakers. You normally eviscerate them....:confused:
He's not going to eviscerate anyone. Even if he tried, he knows it would laughable. Read the whole thread. He knows he inserted foot in mouth, sliced up a whole lot of bolagna and flung it around, here.

Much of his proclamations and statements have been nothing short of comical.
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
He's not going to eviscerate anyone. Even if he tried, he knows it would laughable. Read the whole thread. He knows he inserted foot in mouth, sliced up a whole lot of bolagna and flung it around, here.

Much of his proclamations and statements have been nothing short of comical.
Really...

Most of the crap in this thread was the direct result of someone interpreting things I never said. The thread started out with OP complaining about annoying tonal balance. I replied by stating to apply two specific shelving filters via EQ to correct this, and possibly another 2 parmetric filters to correct a consistent set of anomolies that are present on and off axis (in a 60 degree window), and have nothing to do with any power response dip - then someone replies and somehow assumes I suggest correcting power response dip with EQ - which was never said or suggested by me - then Sean starts posting, assuming the same.

-Chris
 
TjMV3

TjMV3

Full Audioholic
Oh I know what you said and what you were doing. No misinterpretations.

All the scrambling in the world won't change that.
 
AJinFLA

AJinFLA

Banned
Most of the crap in this thread was the direct result of someone interpreting things I never said.
Chris, not sure who "someone" is, but my involvement arose only because you stated (I'll quote, so no "implied" or "interpreted")
The 802N is a far better speaker......It's designed as a neutral monitor, and is very popular in the world's best sound studios as a result. But you are lucky, in that the neutrality of this speaker means you can have it sound like just about anything you could want. Use a precision EQ system to adjust the sound to your preferences. It's that easy.
That is your opinion, belied by the facts. The 802D is anything but "neutral". It's audible/sound problems cannot be corrected by EQ, so it's not "easy". "Used in the worlds 'best' studios" is anecdote, at best.
There is not a shred of evidence to support your "resonance" free claims contributing to anything audible (if there is, present it). As someone with some technical knowledge about these issues, you are doing yourself - and worse - readers here who don't have the technical knowledge to understand, a disservice, by sticking to these claims.
The 802 may be many things, but a "neutral monitor" fixable with EQ, it is not.
Btw, having heard both them and several Sonus Fabers, I can certainly see why Greg prefers the Sonus. I would too, despite your (subjective???) claim that the "802N is a far better speaker".

cheers,

AJ
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
Chris, not sure who "someone" is, but my involvement arose only because you stated (I'll quote, so no "implied" or "interpreted")

That is your opinion, belied by the facts. The 802D is anything but "neutral". It's audible/sound problems cannot be corrected by EQ, so it's not "easy". "Used in the worlds 'best' studios" is anecdote, at best.
There is not a shred of evidence to support your "resonance" free claims contributing to anything audible (if there is, present it). As someone with some technical knowledge about these issues, you are doing yourself - and worse - readers here who don't have the technical knowledge to understand, a disservice, by sticking to these claims.
The 802 may be many things, but a "neutral monitor" fixable with EQ, it is not.
Btw, having heard both them and several Sonus Fabers, I can certainly see why Greg prefers the Sonus. I would too, despite your (subjective???) claim that the "802N is a far better speaker".

cheers,

AJ
Sonus Faber speakers usually have extremely resonant cabinet systems, like most speakers. And the power response of Sonus speakers can vary radically between models. Some models have power response only moderately better than the 802.

I have conducted blinded tests with various cabinets, in both real time and by recording each speaker in the same place with same material, then later time aligning the signals to compare in ABX software. In remote locations, I use a reference headphone free of resonances to compare with the same material to listen for the resonant signature of speakers.

I don't know exactly the threshold of how inert a speaker must be built to be free of audible resonances - but most speakers have an apparent resonant signature - and this can certainly not be EQed out and it can't be fixed by room treatments - though if you use a staggering amount of room treatments to remove alot of reverberation from a room - then resonance audibility is reduced.

The only significant 'sin' of the 802 is it's non optimal power response. A lot more factors come into play than just this.

I have listened to the 802N directly next to a speaker with significantly better power response (Soliqoy 6.5), and the SQ between the two was still extremely similar - an overall nuetral playback signature. The 802N still had seemingly greater clarity overall. This room did not have side reflection absorbers. The preference being slight, it could have been a biased preference.

My personal studio monitors have a +/- 0.6dB response to 16kHz and non resonant cabinet systems - as to be an ultra-linear monitor system for music editing. The power response is appreciably better than the 802 as well - though since I use them nearfield, and with significant acoustical treatments - this is not much of a factor in my use.

-Chris
 
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tonmeister

tonmeister

Audioholic
No, the last part only applies to the off axis response characteristic(s). A compromise on the off axis response of the degree here is far less offensive than the horrible resonant behavior of most speakers(most speakers don't even use sufficient acoustic damping material - and use cabinets with braces spaced very far apart(and some use no braces at all), and side reflection treatments can improve most of the problems due to the off axis response at the expense of some timbre resolution and spatial collapse. Ideally, the 802 (or any high grade speaker) should combine the tight resonance control design with flat off axis power response. But ideals rarely occur in the real world.

-Chris
In the end, it doesn't really matter whether the speaker cabinet is made out of 2 feet thick concrete, if the loudspeaker has transducers that have audible resonances in them, and produce a response that is not flat on-axis and smooth off-axis.

What ultimately matters is how good the loudspeaker sounds, and I am not convinced that the construction of the speaker cabinet plays as an important role in the perceived sound quality of the loudspeaker as you seem to suggest.

As long as the speaker enclosure is designed in way that its resonances are below the masked detection threshold (as Lipshitz and Vanderkooy found), you are throwing money at something that falls in the category of what Toole calls "audio jewelry." It may have no audible benefit, but being able to afford it, makes you feel good about yourself.
 
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tonmeister

tonmeister

Audioholic
Sonus Faber speakers usually have extremely resonant cabinet systems, like most speakers. And the power response of Sonus speakers can vary radically between models. Some models have power response only moderately better than the 802.

I have conducted blinded tests with various cabinets, in both real time and by recording each speaker in the same place with same material, then later time aligning the signals to compare in ABX software.
And what were the results? Did you publish them? I presume there were audible differences but was there a statistically significant preference for one cabinet over the other?
I don't know exactly the threshold of how inert a speaker must be built to be free of audible resonances - but most speakers have an apparent resonant signature - and this can certainly not be EQed out and it can't be fixed by room treatments - though if you use a staggering amount of room treatments to remove alot of reverberation from a room - then resonance audibility is reduced.
We did a pretty comprehensive study on the detection thresholds of resonances (and reflections) studying the effect of frequency, Q, time delay, level, program signal, and room reverberation on their audibility. Higher Q resonances are less audible than lower Q ones -- so dampening the cabinet resonances might actually make them more audible. Reducing the room reverberation, as you point out, can reduce the audibility of low Q resonances. Using Finite Element Analysis you can model and simulate the resonances of the cabinet and then use our resonance threshold data to determine whether the resonances are below the masked threshold of audibility. With auralization tools you can even listen to different simulated cabinets/enclosures over headphones. We have this capability at Harman using our own FEA modeling and simulation software tools.

The only significant 'sin' of the 802 is it's non optimal power response. A lot more factors come into play than just this.
I have listened to the 802N directly next to a speaker with significantly better power response (Soliqoy 6.5), and the SQ between the two was still extremely similar - an overall nuetral playback signature. The 802N still had seemingly greater clarity overall. This room did not have side reflection absorbers. The preference being slight, it could have been a biased preference.
I know the 802N pretty well, and have tested it against dozens of loudspeakers using over +300 listeners in controlled double-blind tests over the past 10 years. I have a large database of subjective ratings on its sound quality that can be largely explained by the comprehensive anechoic measurements I've attached above. The SP response is only one of its problems, albeit probably its most serious one. We've tested it against less expensive loudspeakers (e,g, the $500 loudspeaker shown above) that have less substantial built cabinets using non-matrix enclosures, yet listeners rate these less expensive loudspeaker much higher. Why? Because their anechoic measurements are much better. That leads me to the conclusion that a substantial cabinet doesn't really matter if the acoustical performance of the transducers/system design is not up to par.

I don't mean to belabor this any further or single out the 802N, since there are much worse speakers at higher prices. I just want to make the point that designing good sounding loudspeakers is not rocket science. If the loudspeaker measures well, then it will sound good. Let's not confuse that with what materials,enclosures, etc the speaker is made of.

My personal studio monitors have a +/- 0.6dB response to 16kHz and non resonant cabinet systems - as to be an ultra-linear monitor system for music editing. The power response is appreciably better than the 802 as well - though since I use them nearfield, and with significant acoustical treatments - this is not much of a factor in my use.
-Chris
Excellent. Then you, better than anyone else, should not be forgiving of mediocre sound, especially when you are paying a premium for it.
 
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WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
And what were the results? Did you publish them? I presume there were audible differences but was there a statistically significant preference for one cabinet over the other?
The results, when comparing a normal size 2 way with no bracing compared to the same driver array/crossover, in a vesrion of the cabinet with much lower amplitude response, was a detectable 'coloration' in the lower mid-range band. I can't give statistical 'preference' data, as it was ABX tests to detect only 'if' the difference was audible. It is entirely possible that simply adding 4 -5 simple cross braces into the 2 way cabinet could have reduced the cabinet audibility to zero - but I was only doing radical difference comparisons.

Another even more audible problem I have found is insufficient acoustical damping material used in speakers, especially lower priced ones. Simply installing a highly effective material in place of a poor one has made huge differences to mid-range definition/clarity.

I use a headphone with extreme low resonance behavior to compare for audible resonances in remote locations. I also have become extremely sensitive to resonances, far more than an untrained individual, due to my extensive auditory comparisons. So it's also possible that resonances that bother me, an average person may not notice unless they are trained to do so.

We did a pretty comprehensive study on the detection thresholds of resonances (and reflections) studying the effect of frequency, Q, time delay, level, program signal, and room reverberation on their audibility. Higher Q resonances are less audible than lower Q ones -- so dampening the cabinet resonances might actually make them more audible. Reducing the room reverberation, as you point out, can reduce the audibility of low Q resonances. U
I am quite familiar with that study and reference it often.

sing Finite Element Analysis you can model and simulate the resonances of the cabinet and then use our resonance threshold data to determine whether the resonances are below the masked threshold of audibility. With auralization tools you can even listen to different simulated cabinets/enclosures over headphones.
Unfortunately, I don't have access to this software, which I'm sure is not exactly cheap. I don't have a practical way to predict just 'how much' cabinet build is required to stay under the audible threshold, so I do build in a way to insure extreme low cabinet wall vibration amplitude.

I do have an idea/concept of how to actually acquire the raw cabinet amplitude response in a room vs. the driver response, then overlay them and refer to your resonance article to cross reference audibility. But I have not yet been able to get to this, as well as other important things I plan to do(I am going to build a large stereo automatic turntable setup for DBT of physical speakers behind acoustically transparent screens).

Harman certainly does not use 'lightly' built cabinets with any of their high quality lines, like the Infinity Prelude or Revel Studio, etc. Do they do this just for marketing?

I know the 802N pretty well, and have tested it against dozens of loudspeakers using over +300 listeners in controlled double-blind tests over the past 10 years. I have a large database of subjective ratings on its sound quality that can be largely explained by the comprehensive anechoic measurements I've attached above.
I submit that the EQ filters I specified earlier will correct it's SQ score by a substantial margin. The treble peaks will be very annoying, and I do not think it has sufficient baffle step correction for most placement situations that are far from a back wall. No matter how good a speaker, I believe it would sound 'annoying' with such a response. You should I.D. the $500 mystery speaker, though, as this may help a lot people.

The Behringer B2030P has power response that is superior to most speakers regardless of price. It's measurements are very impressive, overall. A $150/pair monitor speaker, 2 way. But it will never be a contender against the 802 in it's stock form. It has no bracing, and the internal acoustic absorption material is marginal.
Excellent. Then you, better than anyone else, should not be forgiving of mediocre sound, especially when you are paying a premium for it.
One must be practical. Most commercial speakers are sub-par and it's an entirely different thing to design/build my own speakers compared to recommending pre-made ones. I can easily (and do) ensure text book perfect off axis response, and that drivers have no break up modes anywhere near their passband with my own designs as well as other important factors and it only costs me materials.

Why do no relatively low cost speakers exist that anyone can afford, that meet all of the ideal characteristics for optimum stereo playback without any significant compromises? I think it could be done, but no one that I know of has made such a device. Take the Infinity Primus 360/362; it has superb off axis response through most of it's passband and uses excellent drivers that have break up modes far past their passbands and the drivers it uses have very substantial dynamic range capability. It has a good crossover design. But it has a huge bass peak, it has very poor internal acoustic absorption material and it has a very questionable cabinet. With what seems would not be much more of a manufacturing cost, it seems they could have made this into a world - class speaker in the average Joe's cost range. Is that not done because it would screw up some kind of market balance for performance? Afraid it would cut into the 'high end' Harman products offering?

-Chris
 
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G

greggp2

Senior Audioholic
I resemble my Avitar ... tell me! :D
Alex, you are such a trip. Glad to see someone tried to lighten up this thread! I didn't realize I'd start such a debate and I'm lost on half of it, but it's been educational.

I think I'm just going to pick up a pair of Sonus Faber Amati Homage speakers on the secondary market. They are supposed to be one of the best speakers ever made and if I don't like how they sound, I think I'll just get a new hobby... Or maybe just purchase really good headphones. :D
 

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