B&W Nautilus vs Sonus Faber Cremonas

AJinFLA

AJinFLA

Banned
How exactly will you do this? Do you come to someone's house with an EQ system and demo the difference?
Sure. Got a DCX and DEQ. Could even do it right from my laptop. I'll show you what EQ can do...and the limitations.
I'll also bring along a loudspeaker system unlike "most". So you can hear for yourself if uniform polar field, among other things, is audible.
If so, what does that cost to do?
Couple of beers?

cheers,

AJ
 
G

greggp2

Senior Audioholic
AJ,

I live in Weston, which is West Ft Lauderdale. You are in Tampa? Super nice offer, as I always stock beers in the fridge, but that's an awfully long trip for a fellow audioholic. Are you by these parts often?
 
G

greggp2

Senior Audioholic
I hope I don't offend any other B&W customers on this site, but I think I just figured out why B&W uses kevlar in their midrange drivers....


Because after listening to their speakers for 30 minutes at a decent volume level, it feels like someone shot you in the head!!!

Ok, sorry, couldn't resist...
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
So poor design/performance is ok....because "most" speakers do this?
Everything is relative. Compared to most other monopolar speakers, it is not doing anything horribly wrong.

So all the research of Toole at the NRC, Olive, Geddes, JBL, etc. stressing the audible importance of smooth off axis behavior is irrelevant, because "most" speakers exhibit no such response? A chaotic reverberant field is to be desired?
So how is the power flare at 5k to be resolved? Is it EQ, or the absorption band aid?
Absorption is the common correction used for most monopolar speakers at the 1st reflection points due to common poor off axis response.

Who said it was in that particular measurement?
You implied such with your posting of the two graphs in sequence and your statement.


Really? So the omni-direction radiation of the baffle less tweeter won't reflect/diffract off the mid sphere and cone? And this speaker has no resonances and good off axis? Ok, so how do you explain this?
A top mounted tweeter wth a small baffle profile, reduces diffraction effects in the main band.

The dips in response across the response appear to be standard purposeful response variation to induce a slight specific signature into the amplitude response. Ironically, the Matrix Series II from the 80's had a flatter on and off axis response.

So "not much worse than most" = "neutral"?
That is your evidence/data to support your claim of the 802 being "a neutral monitor"?

So because a speaker exhibits "like most" polar and power behavior, it's excused? And "neutral"?
It is nuetral in comparison to most speakers, primarily due to the lack of any coloration from the inert cabinet system and proper acoustical dampening in the closed chambers; two things that are frequently overlooked.
Btw, have you actually read Toole's book (or Geddes/Mouton, etc.) and what research has found about absorption and spaciousness/realism? Do you know what they recommend, regarding absorption, based on this research?
I am familar with most of the perceptual research; I have studied the JAES articles for a long time. You know good and well that no absorption is the ideal for the best perceived timbrel effects/perception and for spatial reasons, given a speaker with a near identical response far off axis as compared to on-axis, and given the proper range of incidental angle of reflection and distance in relation to speaker - wall - listener.

A retail speaker with that combination of low resonance and far off axis uniformity is very rare, and extremely expensive. GreggP, I believe, purchased his speakers for way below market value, if memory serves me correctly. A simple treatment of off axis response and proper EQ will allow just about any signature he wants, within the confines of the power response limits.

-Chris
 
Seth=L

Seth=L

Audioholic Overlord
greggp2 said:
Let's try to keep things objective though and not insult one another.
That's preciselly what Chris and I are trying to do. There is nothing more objective, from any point of view. Objectively it's more cost effective, and objectively the 802N is a linear monitor that can be tailored to fit any listener's desired sound with a good active EQ. I think one hurdle you might be having trouble overcoming is you are imagining an analog multiband EQ whenever we mention the Behringer, it's completely different. However, Chris can explain it far better than I can.
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
That's preciselly what Chris and I are trying to do. There is nothing more objective, from any point of view. Objectively it's more cost effective, and objectively the 802N is a linear monitor that can be tailored to fit any listener's desired sound with a good active EQ. I think one hurdle you might be having trouble overcoming is you are imagining an analog multiband EQ whenever we mention the Behringer, it's completely different. However, Chris can explain it far better than I can.
There must be other speakers other than B&W that have ultra low cabinet resonances but for some reason these are the only speakers mentioned for that. I would love to have someone in the know compare the new Pioneers that I posted in another link or look at Hansen against the 802s. There is nothing wrong if people don't like the sound of the 802s . Its all subjective anyway.
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
There must be other speakers other than B&W that have ultra low cabinet resonances but for some reason these are the only speakers mentioned for that. I would love to have someone in the know compare the new Pioneers that I posted in another link or look at Hansen against the 802s. There is nothing wrong if people don't like the sound of the 802s . Its all subjective anyway.
The Hansen speakers, yes, they do have cabinets of inert audible nature. They also have superior off axis performance in the mid-band. The regular size 3 way Prince v2, comparable to the size of the 802....they also cost nearly 3x what B&W 802D costs. It also needs some EQ correction.

-Chris
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
The Hansen speakers, yes, they do have cabinets of inert audible nature. They also have superior off axis performance in the mid-band. The regular size 3 way Prince v2, comparable to the size of the 802....they also cost nearly 3x what B&W 802D costs. It also needs some EQ correction.

-Chris
Does it cost 3 times to get that performance advantage over the B&W? And the Pioneers? Whats your take on them?
 
Last edited:
bandphan

bandphan

Banned
AJ,

I live in Weston, which is West Ft Lauderdale. You are in Tampa? Super nice offer, as I always stock beers in the fridge, but that's an awfully long trip for a fellow audioholic. Are you by these parts often?
Calling out Greg for a GTG:D OH Major, its time
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
Does it cost 3 times to get that performance advantage over the B&W? And the Pioneers? Whats your take on them?
No. If one picks the right 2 way speaker with a inert cabinet and appreciably better off axis performance, uses a proper active crossover to blend it to 2 high quality subwoofers, in effect making a 3 way, you can surpass the B&W performance for lower in price, yet have superior performance in linearity, off axis response and bass extension and distortion (by using high performance subs).

I have never seen any significant measured analysis of the Pioneer speakers mentioned, nor have I measured/analyzed them, or even heard them to make a loose subjective statement about them. I know nothing about them.

-Chris
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
No. If one picks the right 2 way speaker with a inert cabinet and appreciably better off axis performance, uses a proper active crossover to blend it to 2 high quality subwoofers, in effect making a 3 way, you can surpass the B&W performance for lower in price, yet have superior performance in linearity, off axis response and bass extension and distortion (by using high performance subs).

I have never seen any significant analysis of the Pioneer speakers mentioned. I know nothing about them.

-Chris

thnx for answering,,,, :) I guess I didn't ask the question clearly enough.. not employing active crossovers and subs, just using the speakers as they are, does it take 3 times the money like Hansen to out perform the 802s?
 
tonmeister

tonmeister

Audioholic
Guys, thanks for the posts and I'm glad we are having a spirited debate about the speakers and options. Let's try to keep things objective though and not insult one another. I really appreciate everyone's posts though and really prefer not to get into having to sell speakers at this point. But the truth is, I'm not so sure that I like the 802's overall presentation after comparing them with the Sonus Fabers. I went to a dealer in Boca and he was great. I was very impressed with the Cremona M's and after listening to them and the 802's I feel like I could listen to the Cremona's for hours. The B&W's make my ears feel like they are going to bleed after about 30 minutes. I don't know if an EQ will fix that and I truthfully don't know if I would even know where to begin in trying to get an EQ to do that. I know Chris has offered his help and I really appreciate it. I might still take him up on it as well, but I don't know that any EQ is capable of changing the natural presentation of a speaker. I could be wrong on that though. I'm a hobbyist and no expert!
In our room correction evaluation study, we used a B&W 802N precisely because it presented unique challenges to a room correction product. It has a huge hole in its sound power (click on measurement below) from the use of a large diameter midrange crossed over too high to a smaller tweeter. When the directivity is not smooth, fixing the sound power dip via equalization can lead to a direct sound that may be too bright, depending on the acoustics of the room and the listener/loudspeaker positioning.

In this particular case, fixing the problem via room correction improved the sound quality ratings compared to the uncorrected version of the loudspeaker.

I would disagree with the people above who argue this off-axis behavior is typical of today's loudspeakers. If the loudspeaker is well-designed using drivers and/or waveguides that produce a smooth directivity, then a smooth on and off-axis response can be achieved. It simply takes a combination of good engineering along with the capability of doing comprehensive anechoic measurements. In the case of the B&W 802, I would guess that marketing won over engineering because the large yellow kevlar midrange has historically been a prominent part of their marketing story and visual ID.
B&W 802N.jpg
 
Last edited:
AJinFLA

AJinFLA

Banned
Sean,

I'll have to shake your hand if I ever meet you in person.
You just saved me a lot of typing. I hate typing:)
 
AJinFLA

AJinFLA

Banned
AJ,
I live in Weston, which is West Ft Lauderdale. You are in Tampa? Super nice offer, as I always stock beers in the fridge, but that's an awfully long trip for a fellow audioholic. Are you by these parts often?
Yep, Tampa. Long trips for me would be CA or WA, not Weston. Not there often, but been there before. Thinking mid April, as I'm supposedly closing on a house Fri, which should keep me busy for the immediate future.
We'd be cool if there was some Shock Top belgian white in that fridge when I arrived ;)

cheers,

AJ
 
tonmeister

tonmeister

Audioholic
A retail speaker with that combination of low resonance and far off axis uniformity is very rare, and extremely expensive. GreggP, I believe, purchased his speakers for way below market value, if memory serves me correctly. A simple treatment of off axis response and proper EQ will allow just about any signature he wants, within the confines of the power response limits.

-Chris
This statement is utter nonsense. Below are the mean preference ratings (based on trained listeners in controlled double-blind tests) and anechoic measurements of four loudspeakers from different manufacturers that cost from left to right: $500, $800, $900, and $3800 a pair. In this example, the more money you spend, the worse the sound quality and off-axis response gets - the exact opposite of what you claim.

Of course, if you know how to design good loudspeakers you can do this at any price point, and get much better sound (more bass, more undistorted output) at higher price points. This has more to do with the engineering/measurement/scientific capability of the manufacturer than anything else.

The loudspeaker on the left in the graph costs $500 a pair -- 1/16th the price of the 802N -- and while not perfect, has a much better on-axis and off-axis response. In my opinion, to spend time and money on acoustically absorbing the off-axis sound of a loudspeaker that costs 16x more than a better loudspeaker that requires no acoustical treatment is both ludicrous and environmentally unconscionable.

Misguided professional audio people did this in the 1970's and 1980's by building Live End Dead Rooms (LEDE) designed to kill early reflections from bad loudspeakers (Urei 809). That silly practice went on until someone figured out it made more sense to simply use better loudspeakers. Fortunately, better loudspeakers are available today at price points that don't require you to refinance your house.

Good $500 Loudspeaker.jpg
 
Last edited:
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
When the directivity is not smooth, fixing the sound power dip via equalization can lead to a direct sound that may be too bright, depending on the acoustics of the room and the listener/loudspeaker positioning.
For the record, I(nor anyone else in this thread that I noticed) ever suggested at any time to try to correct a power response dip off with EQ. EQ was specified to apply a shelving filter to reduce the treble balance slightly, as the BW 802 will tend to sound bright on most recordings. In addition, a shelving filter was recommended to adjust baffle step compensation specifically for the room/position of the listener, since the exact amount of BSC required is different depending on proximity of speaker to walls, room acoustics, etc..

I would disagree with the people above who argue this off-axis behavior is typical of today's loudspeakers.
Based on many published off axis graphs in Stereophile measurement section, a loss of power in the mid-range off axis is still regularly noticed in a significant number of speaker reviews. This is the basis of the original statement in regards to such.

-Chris
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
This statement is utter nonsense. Below are the mean preference ratings (based on trained listeners in controlled double-blind tests) and anechoic measurements of four loudspeakers from different manufacturers that cost from left to right: $500, $800, $900, and $3800 a pair. In this example, the more money you spend, the worse the sound quality and off-axis response gets - the exact opposite of what you claim.
You are under the impression, it seems, that I made some blanket claim that price is directly correlated with as a consistent rule, off axis response improvement,etc.. I never made any such statement, so I do not know why you made your above statement.

What I did say, is that a speaker with the combination of a very low resonance cabinet system, superb off axis response, etc.; is rare and expensive. You can find a good number of speakers with very poor cabinets and completely insufficient internal acoustic damping used even, that have very good off axis performance(relatively speaking). You can find many very expensive speakers with poor everything. Price ensures nothing. But when you do find a speaker with the entire combination, it is not common(thus being rare) and very costly. Take Harman. Where are Harmans low cost speakers with this combination? You have to go to the high end Revels for this complete package of performance from Harman, and not many high end speakers offer the combination of characteristics that is required for a very high performance speaker system.

Of course, if you know how to design good loudspeakers you can do this at any price point, and get much better sound (more bass, more undistorted output) at higher price points. This has more to do with the engineering/measurement/scientific capability of the manufacturer than anything else.
I expressly design speakers to the ideals that primarily, you and Toole established, as a matter of fact. Here is the off axis response set (0-90d, in 15d increments) of the last speaker I completed. The very narrow dip/blip at 3.5kHz is a cabinet diffraction issue due to the baffle design. As you see, I try keep the flattest power response possible.





In addition to the even power response, this speaker uses a cabinet system of extreme low panel vibration amplitude response. On top 1/2, the cabinet is 3/4" MDF external, a 1/8" visco-elastic damping core constrained between the MDF and than a 1/2" layer of fiber re-enforced concrete. Additionally, bracing inside the cabinet is placed no more than about 3" from any other bracing point, in all axises. The bottom 1/2 of cabinet is 2 1/4" MDF with 3/4" steel tube bars embedded every 4" vertically in the core of the MDF. Bracing every 6" or so density inside. System divided drivers and capabilities of drivers based on statistical ratio of average music power distribution across the spectrum. Internal acoustic absorption material used is 8# Roxul (high density mineral wool board), equivalent to OC 705/703 in acoustic co-efficients. Used in thick amounts to prevent any internal cavity reflections of significance from occuring, as I find many common acoustical damping executions to still allow some appreciable cavity resonances/reflections that are not desirable.

Misguided professional audio people did this in the 1970's and 1980's by building Live End Dead Rooms (LEDE) designed to kill early reflections from bad loudspeakers (Urei 809). That silly practice went on until someone figured out it made more sense to simply use better loudspeakers.
I hate to tell you, but this still appears to be common practice (killing as many early reflections as possible as standard recommendation) from some places; Ethan Winer for example regularly promotes this; he owns the popular treatment company RealTraps. I have tried to debate with him in the past, offering perceptual research/studies from articles by you, Toole and other credible researchers, but he and many others still dismiss it. :confused:


-Chris
 
Last edited:
tonmeister

tonmeister

Audioholic
For the record, I(nor anyone else in this thread that I noticed) ever suggested at any time to try to correct a power response dip off with EQ. EQ was specified to apply a shelving filter to reduce the treble balance slightly, as the BW 802 will tend to sound bright on most recordings. In addition, a shelving filter was recommended to adjust baffle step compensation specifically for the room/position of the listener, since the exact amount of BSC required is different depending on proximity of speaker to walls, room acoustics, etc..
I'm glad to hear that. We actually DID try doing this, and in this particular case, found it did more good than harm. Of course, I would always recommend starting out with the best loudspeaker you can rather than trying to fix a bad one with EQ.

Based on many published off axis graphs in Stereophile measurement section, a loss of power in the mid-range off axis is still regularly noticed in a significant number of speaker reviews. This is the basis of the original statement in regards to such.
-Chris
Fair enough. That only suggests that many of the loudspeakers reviewed in Stereophile are not competently designed in terms of maintaining smooth off-axis response. One can only speculate why this is the case. My best guess is that the smaller companies don't have the measurement capability to quantify (objectively and subjectively) these artifacts.
 
newsletter

  • RBHsound.com
  • BlueJeansCable.com
  • SVS Sound Subwoofers
  • Experience the Martin Logan Montis
Top