Stance on pirating?

[highfigh]

But these are all things that MAY happen. Having a beer in my home before bed hurts no one.

This isn't about having one beer. It was about excessive drug and alcohol use.

 

[highfigh]

If someone tokes a bit of da ganja in their own home, is that a crime? No. DWI is a totally different issue, too. They could be under the influence of alcohol, which is a crime, or even unintentionally under the effect of prescription drugs.

No, it ain't the inebriate by itself. It's the driving under the influence that's the crime.


So, can I take it that you are either don't drink, do drugs, and have sex? Or do you do all those but never interact with anyone?

Neither lifestyle would suit me. Having sex without interacting with another would really get to me. But, having learned to accept and take responsibility, I don't think it's too much of a problem. Even when I was single, it worked.

What you say may be great in theory, but it's not really doable in the real world. Learn to accept the realities that the actions I mentioned by themselves are victimless crimes.

If the users choose to DWI, well, that's another issue entirely. And, I believe that intentionally spreading aids is a crime, but loose sex in itself isn't.

Using pot is illegal. It's not the same kind of drug as cocaine, heroin, meth, crack or other harder drugs but it's still illegal to possess it, sell it or use it. They don't say that using it at home is OK, it's illegal wherever it's used, although enough has been said about using it at home for many to think that's OK. As far as the inebriate- if it's an illegal substance, it doesn't matter if the person is driving, or not.

"So, you're saying that every homosexual (or straight, which you also imply) that has sex with another has and is intentionally passing aids or some other heinous disease? If that's your reality, you really should find a new circle of friends."

How the hell did you come up with this? I was responding to the post that said loose sex has no victims. I never wrote anything about 'every' person with a disease.

You should read the words and not read anything into them that isn't explicitly stated. I don't do drugs, I drink very little and it's by choice. I no longer enjoy being drunk and I definitely don't want to wake up the next day, feeling like crap. I actually like to not be drunk or stoned. It has nothing to do with religion, since I can't be considered religious but I do have a strong sense of right and wrong. You really missed the point of that post and assumed things that I never posted. I never said loose sex is a crime.

Alcohol and drugs don't bring out the best in people. Some people do some things better when they're stoned but there aren't many things that are done better when drunk. Intoxication makes people do things they normally wouldn't and that brings a lot of problems with it.

"Next, you'll be saying that selling knives, guns, or baseball bats is a crime because some people use them to harm others."

Where did you get this idea? Oh, sorry- since one person can't own an idea, I should have asked 'Where did we get this idea, right? Read the words, don't try to analyze people.

 

[NicolasKL]

I just really cannot agree with this. I don't see how piracy got Obsidian to release KOTOR II incomplete (and never complete it), not Spore with half the features from the beta gone (that seems to be the add-on packs), nor how piracy made them put in a crap control system on MOO III, or try to sell downloadable content *in game* in Dragon Age.

No. Piracy may be involved in why there's such draconian anti-piracy software (what do you mean I can't reinstall the game? Where did this root-kit come from?): but it didn't make games suck.

I'm not saying piracy made games suck, I'm saying rampant piracy on the PC made so many game publishers redirect 95% of their efforts to the console crowd, to the dearth of PC gaming.

 

[NicolasKL]

This isn't about having one beer. It was about excessive drug and alcohol use.

What's your definition of excessive?

but there aren't many things that are done better when drunk. Intoxication makes people do things they normally wouldn't and that brings a lot of problems with it.

Brings some benefits too.

 

[Ito]

I will say this:
Yes I pirate. I happen to have pretty odd musical tastes, I listen to Japanese Rock, mostly visual kei. If I did not pirate some of those band's albums and songs I would have never put down the money to pay for CD's (roughly $40 for a CD). Yes, there are things I pirate and don't pay for, but a lot of those bands would never have gotten a penny from me without piracy.

Also, since I listen to a lot of small Japanese bands there are may times when releases are live only distributions, limited to a very small amount of copies, can not be bought online, can not be bought because I can not read Japanese, or that they will not ship to the US. So I resort to Piracy. Am I really depriving those bands of sales when I would have no possible way to buy the release anyways (aside from learning Japanese, flying to japan, and attending the live, which would probably cost more than their total income from CD sales.

I'm interested to see what you guys to have to say about these situations.

Also I think some of you guys should check out the book Free by Chris Anderson, he goes over some very interesting ideas that are relevant to what we are talking about here,

 

[MidnightSensi]

Also I think some of you guys should check out the book Free by Chris Anderson, he goes over some very interesting ideas that are relevant to what we are talking about here,

I added it to the list. Cheers.

 

[highfigh]

What's your definition of excessive?



Brings some benefits too.

My definition of excessive drinking is that it causes problems with the person's health, ability to function productively/causes deterioration of normal functioning, causes them to make bad decisions and causes problems with interpersonal relationships.

Don't nit-pick single words to twist the meaning, either. It's my opinion and it comes from the experiences of people I know/knew and in part, my own experiences.

Benefits? Like being incredibly "charming" at a bar? Like being the life of the party? Like thinking that one more for the road is OK and then driving at high speed, killing everyone in the car except for the driver? Like driving in the northbound lane of the highway and, after seeing someone (me) flash their high beams, crossing three lanes in 50 yards to drive up the on ramp only to crash head-on into a car and kill everyone inside?

Those benefits? What great things have come from being drunk?

 

[markw]

Wow. That's all I can say. Wow.

Using pot is illegal. It's not the same kind of drug as cocaine, heroin, meth, crack or other harder drugs but it's still illegal to possess it, sell it or use it. They don't say that using it at home is OK, it's illegal wherever it's used, although enough has been said about using it at home for many to think that's OK. As far as the inebriate- if it's an illegal substance, it doesn't matter if the person is driving, or not.

"So, you're saying that every homosexual (or straight, which you also imply) that has sex with another has and is intentionally passing aids or some other heinous disease? If that's your reality, you really should find a new circle of friends."

How the hell did you come up with this? I was responding to the post that said loose sex has no victims. I never wrote anything about 'every' person with a disease.

You should read the words and not read anything into them that isn't explicitly stated. I don't do drugs, I drink very little and it's by choice. I no longer enjoy being drunk and I definitely don't want to wake up the next day, feeling like crap. I actually like to not be drunk or stoned. It has nothing to do with religion, since I can't be considered religious but I do have a strong sense of right and wrong. You really missed the point of that post and assumed things that I never posted. I never said loose sex is a crime.

Alcohol and drugs don't bring out the best in people. Some people do some things better when they're stoned but there aren't many things that are done better when drunk. Intoxication makes people do things they normally wouldn't and that brings a lot of problems with it.

"Next, you'll be saying that selling knives, guns, or baseball bats is a crime because some people use them to harm others."

Where did you get this idea? Oh, sorry- since one person can't own an idea, I should have asked 'Where did we get this idea, right? Read the words, don't try to analyze people.

So, you're now gonna bludgeon us over the head with whatever choices you've made for yourself? I gave you more credit than that.

Sorry, you should be in the "Is Morality Relative" thread. This thread is about piracy. Either stick too the subject or take yer beef there.

Like was said to that other guy, don't try to judge me, or us. You aren't in a position to do so.

If these actions are reactions are indicative of your real world experiences, I can't say I blame you though. although, I would have hoped you would rather found a saner group of friends and applied a little self-control before wigging out entirely.

Now, my friends and myself have always been responsible and took actions to prevent problems. And, nobody in my croud ever got popped for DWI or got any STD's. Maybe a hangover once and a while, but nothing to cry about. And, believe me, we were far from celibate.

And, considering that we date back to when Nixon was president and now have grandchildren we did all right. That's not to say that we partied constantly, but when we did, we used our head and maintained self-control and were responsible. Just because you couldn't handle it, don't assume everyone is like you.

Of course, we mellowed out somewhat when we got married in the 70's, but we never lost that attitude. Even today, a puff once in a while isn't out of the question.

And, we never painted others with too wide a brush. We just avoided aholes that were dangerous to themselves and others, and mostly us.

So, in closing, yes, all those activities I mentioned ARE victimless crimes unless some ahole abuses them and, by their actions, involves others. Just like a knife or a gun. Selling and owning one isn't necessarially a crime. Stabbing or shooting someone with it is.

Now, if you want to continue in this idiotic vein, please do so in the "Is Morality Relative" thread where it belongs.

So, party hearty, dude.

 

[Nemo128]

If I pirate a 360 game, and it sucks, I would not buy it. If I pirate a 360 game and it rocks, I would buy it to enjoy the online features. My piracy in that case cost the developer nothing. Why? Cuz if their product sucks, I wouldn't buy it anyway.

Piracy just ensures, in this case, that Blockbuster/Netflix doesn't profit off of crappy products, and since they aren't the producer/developer of the product, the "artist losing money" mentality doesn't hold water.

I consider it theft when you pay, for example, $10-20 for a CD and you get one good song out of it. The artist would never dream of giving you a partial refund because his music sucked, the game developer would never consider giving you a partial refund because their game was buggy or crappy, the software giant would never issue a partial refund for every blue screen of death their customers encounter, and the actor/movie studio would never refund tickets to moviegoers who said the movie was a complete waste of time.

Now when I go see art in a gallery event, that's art. I can take in the product, see if it will stir my emotions or interests, and decide if I want to own it. I don't have to go online and read paintingrankings.com to decide whether or not someone else's opinion of a piece of art is good enough for me to want it.

Artists stand to make a lot more money, deal with a lot less stress, and gain a much more loyal following when they cut out the industry machine. Anyone with a modest computer and a few dollars can be their own manager, publisher, and advertising agency. I personally know independent musicians that make more money and deal with less crap than a lot of mainstream airwave commercial performers, and they don't need to shoot videos in rented homes with rented cars and rented jewelry to do it.

Calling some of the crap out there art, and calling those making it artists, is like calling McDonald's gourmet food and the guy flipping the meat patties and operating the fry hopper a chef.

 

[gmichael]

This isn't about having one beer. It was about excessive drug and alcohol use.

If I drink 20 beers and smoke pot that I grew myself and then go to bed, who did I hurt?

 

[nibhaz]

This thread has provided some interesting reading thus far so I hope it keeps going.

So here is some more food for thought.

I have used bit torrent once in the last year to download something I don’t physically own, but I felt justified and had no problems with what I did. This summer my GF accidentally returned a disc of Weeds to Netflix without watching all of the episodes on the disc. Since we already had the next disc in our possession and I didn’t want jack up our queue, I turned to the internet to find the missing episodes.

Was this illegal or wrong, since I had already rented the episodes but failed to use the right to view them?

Nemo brings up some very valid points IMHO. One of my previous employee was a young struggling musician, whose music collection was immense, but it was mostly copied from other people. I asked him about this “theft” of others intellectual property and he essentially echoed Nemo’s assertion that many of these artists would never have seen a dime from him, since he thought most of it was crap. He stated that he had acquired most of his music just to give it a listen, and if he truly liked the disc he would go and purchase the original. I can attest that he did purchase a lot of music, but it was always music he had already heard, knew it was worth the asking price.

Lastly the introduction of Marijuana to the discussion is an interesting one. As a former toker, I have no problem with the stuff even if the government says that it is illegal. The government and its laws do not drive my moral code. In fact, it this conflict between what I think is right and what the government says is wrong that leads me to question much of what the government tries to shove down my throat.

The question as to whether something is right or wrong has nothing to do with the law, just look at people’s conviction concerning abortion.

I have no problem with people taking intellectual property for a test drive before forking over the cash. But if you download something and constantly use it without paying for it, then yeah I think that’s theft.

 

[highfigh]

So, you're now gonna bludgeon us over the head with whatever choices you've made for yourself? I gave you more credit than that.

Sorry

You twist what I post and then claim I'm bludgeoning you over the head with my choices in an effort to clarify my points? Get bent.

Oh yeah,

 

[highfigh]

If I drink 20 beers and smoke pot that I grew myself and then go to bed, who did I hurt?

What's the point of that?

 

[MidnightSensi]

Lastly the introduction of Marijuana to the discussion is an interesting one. As a former toker, I have no problem with the stuff even if the government says that it is illegal. The government and its laws do not drive my moral code. In fact, it this conflict between what I think is right and what the government says is wrong that leads me to question much of what the government tries to shove down my throat.

The question as to whether something is right or wrong has nothing to do with the law, just look at people’s conviction concerning abortion.

I have no problem with people taking intellectual property for a test drive before forking over the cash. But if you download something and constantly use it without paying for it, then yeah I think that’s theft.

Marijuana is different than ganking music though, it hurts more people that it is illegal than if it was decriminalized. It doesn't stop anyone from using it, and it puts a lot of non-violent people away in jail, and we've paid billions looking for something much more harmless than the alcohol sold at grocery stores. Some states are coming around, but, it is taking way too long.

What's the point of that?

Beer and then pot? To get the spins. Bad mix. Herb is best on its own or with less toxic drugs (like shrooms). Marijuana before bed is like the best thing ever.

 

[gmichael]

This thread has provided some interesting reading thus far so I hope it keeps going.

So here is some more food for thought.

I have used bit torrent once in the last year to download something I don’t physically own, but I felt justified and had no problems with what I did. This summer my GF accidentally returned a disc of Weeds to Netflix without watching all of the episodes on the disc. Since we already had the next disc in our possession and I didn’t want jack up our queue, I turned to the internet to find the missing episodes.

Was this illegal or wrong, since I had already rented the episodes but failed to use the right to view them?

Nemo brings up some very valid points IMHO. One my previous employee was a young struggling musician, whose music collection was immense, but it was mostly copied from other people. I asked him about this “theft” of others intellectual property and he essentially echoed Nemo’s assertion that many of these artists would never have seen a dime from him, since he thought most of it was crap. He stated that he had acquired most of his music just to give it a listen, and if he truly liked the disc he would go and purchase the original. I can attest that he did purchase a lot of music, but it was always music he had already heard, knew it was worth the asking price.

Lastly the introduction of Marijuana to the discussion is an interesting one. As a former toker, I have no problem with the stuff even if the government says that it is illegal. The government and its laws do not drive my moral code. In fact, it this conflict between what I think is right and what the government says is wrong that leads me to question much of what the government tries to shove down my throat.

The question as to whether something is right or wrong has nothing to do with the law, just look at people’s conviction concerning abortion.

I have no problem with people taking intellectual property for a test drive before forking over the cash. But if you download something and constantly use it without paying for it, then yeah I think that’s theft.

This makes perfect sense to me. A copy to try something and then maybe buy it doesn't seem so bad. (Not everyone wants to go to the mall and put on those headsets that every Tom, **** and Harry have had on to test a CD) Same as my buying a CD and then making a copy for my car. Technicly, we broke the copywrite laws, but I don't think they were aiming at us when they were written. It's the people who only copy, and never buy, who are stealing. (Note: If anyone doesn't like the word stealing, they are welcome to use their own word, but it adds up to the same thing) Some people make a living making copies and selling them. That money belongs to someone else.

 

[gmichael]

What's the point of that?

What's your point? I don't get what you are trying to say about drinking in excess not being a victimless crime. If I drink at home, and stay at home, who did I hurt?

 

[highfigh]

Marijuana is different than ganking music though, it hurts more people that it is illegal than if it was decriminalized. It doesn't stop anyone from using it, and it puts a lot of non-violent people away in jail, and we've paid billions looking for something much more harmless than the alcohol sold at grocery stores. Some states are coming around, but, it is taking way too long.



Beer and then pot? To get the spins. Bad mix. Herb is best on its own or with less toxic drugs (like shrooms). Marijuana before bed is like the best thing ever.

The jury is still out as far as how much physical harm pot does and it has been proven to be addictive fro some people. It has physical and emotional effects for most. It's illegal. The only thing decriminalizing it would do is provide the government with a big cash grab opportunity. I do find it odd that they haven't seen pot as a revenue source, like booze. Maybe they still watch Reefer Madness at work.

As for the last paragraph- yikes! I don't like bed spins, never have. I always have to put out my kick-stand.

I found that good pot is fine all by itself.

Remember this guy?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GjmJHS8aYg

 

[Nemo128]

I would personally assist any aspiring musician, for free, to set up e-shop for their endeavors. One of my closest friends when I was slightly younger was an excellent producer who formed a duo with an even more excellent lyricist, and I offered for free to press their discs, design their artwork, and market their material online. I demo'd their EP for many people, and it would have easily been sold by the thousands had they pursued the end result actively. Sadly, they let their lives force them into giving up their passion, but I still have the EP and listen to it regularly. I hate to see great talent go to waste due to stupid setbacks like lack of technical knowledge or minor startup costs.

Allow me to provide one good example of such an artist.

An underground hip hop artist named Immortal Technique has put out 3 full length albums to date. His newest one, easily his worst of the three, was produced by DJ Green Lantern, a commercially successful producer who has worked with the likes of Eminem and The Lox.

However, he has still managed to net the majority of his income from each sold disc, plus he plays sold out shows in theaters all over the country. All this from selling only 40k copies of his first disc? Well, when you take home $8 of each $10 disc, you stand to make a good amount of money, attract a smaller yet much more strongly dedicated fan base, and easily sell out shows that you take home the biggest slice of the pie for.

Let's be real for a minute. It's the industry machine that is typically losing money, not the artist. The machine itself robs the artist that puts his/her heart and soul into their craft and is paid pennies on the dollar for their efforts. The performers that take the change they earn and turn it into revenue generating investments, like licensing deals and clothing labels and endorsements, are the ones that make good money. The rest are just lining some executive's pocket. Typically the hand that feeds them is simply sweeping leftover scraps off the table for them to nibble on.

 

[highfigh]

What's your point? I don't get what you are trying to say about drinking in excess not being a victimless crime. If I drink at home, and stay at home, who did I hurt?

Read the paper, watch the news and tell me that you don't see people being killed and injured by this. Drinking at home isn't a crime at all, unless the drinkers are underage.

 

[gmichael]

Read the paper, watch the news and tell me that you don't see people being killed and injured by this. Drinking at home isn't a crime at all, unless the drinkers are underage.

If you mean, "drinking and driving", yes. I see it. But that wasn't the original statement from Mark.