Under Couch Subwoofer?

[WaynePflughaupt]

Do you have any built in cabinetry in the living room that you could use for a sub enclosure? That's what I did in my room. Worked out really well, and no boxes sitting around in the room. I had 7 cu. ft. to play with and I used two 12" drivers. There's a link to a build thread in my signature.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt

 

[GO-NAD!]

Do you have any built in cabinetry in the living room that you could use for a sub enclosure? That's what I did in my room. Worked out really well, and no boxes sitting around in the room. I had 7 cu. ft. to play with and I used two 12" drivers. There's a link to a build thread in my signature.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt

Thanks for the suggestion. I had a look at you installation. How do you like it? As a matter of fact, I do have such cabinetry. It's also a fact that doing what you did would not get approval from my head office.

Annunaki has assured me that setting a sub under the couch would not affect the SQ, but I can't help having nagging doubts. Hence the option of in-ceiling subwoofer(s). She's still thinking about that one. (Come on woman! Give me an answer!)

The thing is, she doesn't want to see it. Even though the in-ceiling design would not be very obtrusive, she'll still be able to see it, which is a bit of a problem for her. If I can't convince her, maybe I can pull a fast one and ask if she'd accept a conventional DIY sub. It could go beside a stuffed easy chair and won't be visible unless you look for it. Hmmmmm......

 

[WaynePflughaupt]

I don’t think the under-couch sub would have an adverse affect on sound quality either, but based on the 1/3-octave SPL readings you posted earlier, it looks like extension will be very poor.

How do you like it? As a matter of fact, I do have such cabinetry.

I like our built-in sub just fine. Sure, it’s not going to shake the house off the foundation, but it performs better than the set-up I had before.

If the wife doesn’t want to see the sub, why would she object to installing it in the cabinetry? Ours was basically doing nothing but collecting junk inside it anyway. The only thing visible will be where a grill replaces one of the doors. Even that can be done so as to minimize its visual intrusion as much possible, using correct wood trim, painted or stained to match, and a grill cloth that’s close to the cabinet’s color. Even if it isn’t totally invisible, it’s still much less obtrusive than a big black box sitting on the floor. And I think it will be even less visually intrusive than the in-ceiling sub will be. The only real issue we had was some what-nots buzzing and rattling, but that was easily solved by moving them somewhere else, putting felt pads under them, etc.

Shoot, it just occurred to me that the door/grill could be replicated and replace all the other cabinet doors as well. Then the sub would be invisible!

(Of course all this assumes your cabinet is located in a place that will get good response to begin with – naturally, that may not be the case.)

Alternately, I’ve seen at least one case where a guy turned a decorative trunk into a sub. Looked pretty nice, IIR.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt

 

[GO-NAD!]

QUOTE]I don’t think the under-couch sub would have an adverse affect on sound quality either, but based on the 1/3-octave SPL readings you posted earlier, it looks like extension will be very poor.[/QUOTE]

The readings were poor for the sub I have now, but it isn't a great sub by any stretch of the imagination. I expect the sub designed by Annunaki will blow it away. I also plan to use a DCX 2496 to even out the response and to cross over with my 2 mains.

Is it because the bass frequencies are so low, that the couch will not impede them and the SQ will not be affectedl? I'm still trying to wrap my head around that...

I can't use the cabinet as an enclosure, because she wants to use them as cabinets. Imagine that!

 

[WaynePflughaupt]

The readings were poor for the sub I have now, but it isn't a great sub by any stretch of the imagination.

But IIR, when you moved the sub over a few feet, the extension then was pretty good?

Is it because the bass frequencies are so low, that the couch will not impede them and the SQ will not be affectedl? I'm still trying to wrap my head around that..

It’s because bass frequencies are non-directional. For instance, by contrast, tweeters are directional. Move off-axis from them and you’ll hear the highs diminish. Throw a towel over them and their level will greatly diminish. Turn the speaker around 180 degrees and you’ll hear no highs (except perhaps for what might be bouncing off the walls).

Bass frequencies aren’t like that. You can turn the sub any direction you like, or throw a towel over it, and it will sound pretty much the same. Make sense? Try it with your current sub and see.

I can't use the cabinet as an enclosure, because she wants to use them as cabinets.

Tell her you’ll get her another cabinet.

Is there no barter system in your house? You know, “Let me do this sub and we’ll get you that new silverware you’ve been wanting” – that kind of thing...

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt

 

[GO-NAD!]

But IIR, when you moved the sub over a few feet, the extension then was pretty good?

Yes, but that was close to a corner, which is not where the undercouch sub would be placed. I took some measurements outside and the response dropped like a rock from 40Hz down. So, it's not a foundation shaker...

I know that bass frequencies are non-directional, or more accurately, less directional as frequency decreases. However, I have to wonder if all that stuffing in the couch would act as a pseudo-bass trap and attenuate or muffle those frequencies, even a little.

In other words, if I placed the sub on the floor, with the couch over it, then with the couch removed would I hear any difference at all? At those frequencies, there is much less definition to the notes being played (this sub is for music only), so maybe that's why there would be no audible difference?

Tell her you’ll get her another cabinet. Is there no barter system in your house? You know, “Let me do this sub and we’ll get you that new silverware you’ve been wanting” – that kind of thing...

Oh, the barter system is alive and well in this house. It's how I got to where I am at this point. We have a fireplace and cabinets, similar in layout to yours. I have photos posted in another thread somewhere....

She's agreed that I can build a sub. The hook I used was that it would not be visible at all. Otherwise, the response was "Well, what's wrong with the sub you have, it's only a couple of years old?". That's how the undercouch sub came to mind. Then, it dawned on me that mentions of undercouch subs are exceedingly rare. So, I have to wonder if there is a problem with the concept. Maybe it's rare because very few people use equalization for their subwoofers and an undercouch sub can't be moved around the room to get the best response.

Perhaps my problem is that subconciously (get it?) when I build it, I'd like to be able to see it. Which goes directly against the original justification of invisibility.

These are my preferences, in order:

1 - 1 or 2 in-ceiling subs.
2 - a conventional sub, to go where the old one currently sits. Actually, I'd like to build a pair, but that simply will not be tolerated.
3 - the undercouch version.

In the end, if she will not budge, I'll do the undercouch sub. It'll be better than the one I have.

Plus, she has a well-founded worry (Hee!Hee!)that I'll move the old sub downstairs and add it to the HT for a 2-sub setup. Well, of course that's what I'll do!!

 

[annunaki]

Yes, but that was close to a corner, which is not where the undercouch sub would be placed. I took some measurements outside and the response dropped like a rock from 40Hz down. So, it's not a foundation shaker...

I know that bass frequencies are non-directional, or more accurately, less directional as frequency decreases. However, I have to wonder if all that stuffing in the couch would act as a pseudo-bass trap and attenuate or muffle those frequencies, even a little.

In other words, if I placed the sub on the floor, with the couch over it, then with the couch removed would I hear any difference at all? At those frequencies, there is much less definition to the notes being played (this sub is for music only), so maybe that's why there would be no audible difference?



Oh, the barter system is alive and well in this house. It's how I got to where I am at this point. We have a fireplace and cabinets, similar in layout to yours. I have photos posted in another thread somewhere....

She's agreed that I can build a sub. The hook I used was that it would not be visible at all. Otherwise, the response was "Well, what's wrong with the sub you have, it's only a couple of years old?". That's how the undercouch sub came to mind. Then, it dawned on me that mentions of undercouch subs are exceedingly rare. So, I have to wonder if there is a problem with the concept. Maybe it's rare because very few people use equalization for their subwoofers and an undercouch sub can't be moved around the room to get the best response.

Perhaps my problem is that subconciously (get it?) when I build it, I'd like to be able to see it. Which goes directly against the original justification of invisibility.

These are my preferences, in order:

1 - 1 or 2 in-ceiling subs.
2 - a conventional sub, to go where the old one currently sits. Actually, I'd like to build a pair, but that simply will not be tolerated.
3 - the undercouch version.

In the end, if she will not budge, I'll do the undercouch sub. It'll be better than the one I have.

Plus, she has a well-founded worry (Hee!Hee!)that I'll move the old sub downstairs and add it to the HT for a 2-sub setup. Well, of course that's what I'll do!!

There are few under couch designs for the simple fact that most good subs are simply too deep for use underneath them, and most spouses will allow a sub within sight.

As for the sound, you are not going to have drastic effects on the sound having it under the couch. There is too much room for air to escape all around the bottom of the couch to cause any adverse issues.

 

[GO-NAD!]

As for the sound, you are not going to have drastic effects on the sound having it under the couch. There is too much room for air to escape all around the bottom of the couch to cause any adverse issues.

What do you mean about drastic effects?? Are you saying that it will perform well, but a conventional sub of equal volume would sound better - even if it's just a bit?

If that design will audibly compromise SQ in any way, I'd rather try to convince my wife that a conventional sub would be best. If it was for a HT, the compromise would be acceptable, but for my music, I want the best SQ acheivable for the money I invest. I already tried to convince her that a pair of subs would be ideal, but she wouldn't bite.

I was looking at the 10W3V3 design that TLS Guy posted. Very intriguing. I noted your input on it as well. I was looking at prices for that driver on ebay and they are very reasonable. Is it significantly better than the 10W1V2? If I can't convince her on an in-ceiling, or a pair of conventional subs, maybe she'll go for a single larger sub. It'll look like I'm compromising then....

Please don't think that I don't appreciate the effort you've put in for me so far. The last couple of months have been very educational for me. If I can't convince her on anything different, I'll build the undercouch design, as I have know doubt that it'll be better than the one I have now.

 

[vilbig]

I apologize for coming in late, but I just finished the Boogieman with the 300 watt Bash, & it blew me away. Just testing in my garage with some test tones shook things in the house, so output and extension will not be an issue. But I was very surprised at how musical it was in a 2.1 set up. I have pics, but not enough posts to post.

 

[annunaki]

I apologize for coming in late, but I just finished the Boogieman with the 300 watt Bash, & it blew me away. Just testing in my garage with some test tones shook things in the house, so output and extension will not be an issue. But I was very surprised at how musical it was in a 2.1 set up. I have pics, but not enough posts to post.

Use the post pad for new users. Then get those pics up.

 

[annunaki]

What do you mean about drastic effects?? Are you saying that it will perform well, but a conventional sub of equal volume would sound better - even if it's just a bit?

If that design will audibly compromise SQ in any way, I'd rather try to convince my wife that a conventional sub would be best. If it was for a HT, the compromise would be acceptable, but for my music, I want the best SQ acheivable for the money I invest. I already tried to convince her that a pair of subs would be ideal, but she wouldn't bite.

I was looking at the 10W3V3 design that TLS Guy posted. Very intriguing. I noted your input on it as well. I was looking at prices for that driver on ebay and they are very reasonable. Is it significantly better than the 10W1V2? If I can't convince her on an in-ceiling, or a pair of conventional subs, maybe she'll go for a single larger sub. It'll look like I'm compromising then....

Please don't think that I don't appreciate the effort you've put in for me so far. The last couple of months have been very educational for me. If I can't convince her on anything different, I'll build the undercouch design, as I have know doubt that it'll be better than the one I have now.

By nothing drastic, I meant perhaps a 1db-2db less in overall maximum output. Sound quality should not suffer at all.

The 10W3v3 is an improvement over W1v2 with a slightly more linear motor, longer stroke, and higher power handling.

 

[GO-NAD!]

By nothing drastic, I meant perhaps a 1db-2db less in overall maximum output. Sound quality should not suffer at all.

The 10W3v3 is an improvement over W1v2 with a slightly more linear motor, longer stroke, and higher power handling.

OK, I'll accept that, because you say so. If I can't convince her of one of the other designs, undercouch it will be.

 

[GO-NAD!]

Uh-oh! I discussed this with the wife last night and I'm starting to get resistance to any design! I can't get too upset about it - she's been very tolerant of my hobby over the last couple of years, as I've bought a lot of equipment. I'm getting the "What's wrong with the one you have?" argument.

I guess I'll have to come up with a list of pros and cons for the different options and try to explain the benefits of a new sub. It's gonna be hard -she'd be content with a clock radio. I started a separate thread a while ago seeking suggestions for the best option(s) for my situation. But, not a single person responded!

So, here is a photo of my living room. A couple of things have changed since it was taken. The components stacked on the left have now been placed in a component stand that I built recently (photos when I get a chance), which sits where the end table is on the right. The end table has been moved elsewhere. Plus, I just bought a pair of Paradigm Studio 20's, although I'm not allowed to use 'em until Christmas.

I'm wondering about the supposed advantages of going 2.2 for music. With the omni-directional low-bass frequencies, are there any real advantages with 2 subs, other than being able to sum the output, so that each can individually play 3dB lower. Does it provide better imaging and soundstaging? Will a single sub, placed mid-way between the mains provide equally good imaging and soundstaging?

Here are my options, as I see them:

1) Go with the undercouch design. The only drawback I see, is that it will be several feet from the mains and I'm concerned about how well it'll integrate with them. It would use a 10W1V2 and BASH 300.

2) a pair of conventional subs - one in each corner, in front of the cabinets, with room to open the doors. I would tame down the corner loading with a DCX2496. Or, a single sub, if it would be more palatable for her. 2 x 10W1V2's and BASH 500 for a pair. 10W1V2 and BASH 300 for one sub (perhaps a 10W3V3 and BASH 500).

3) 1 or 2 in-ceiling subs - my current favourite option. I would install a pair directly above the mains, about 20" out from the wall, 2 x 10W1V2's and BASH 500. Or, a single sub centered between the mains, 20" out from the wall, 10W3V3 and BASH 500. This is where the question about a 2.1 or 2.2 setup applies.

Whichever way it goes, I'll be utilizing a DCX 2496 to cross over and equalize. All opinions are welcome.

 

[annunaki]

Uh-oh! I discussed this with the wife last night and I'm starting to get resistance to any design! I can't get too upset about it - she's been very tolerant of my hobby over the last couple of years, as I've bought a lot of equipment. I'm getting the "What's wrong with the one you have?" argument.

I guess I'll have to come up with a list of pros and cons for the different options and try to explain the benefits of a new sub. It's gonna be hard -she'd be content with a clock radio. I started a separate thread a while ago seeking suggestions for the best option(s) for my situation. But, not a single person responded!

So, here is a photo of my living room. A couple of things have changed since it was taken. The components stacked on the left have now been placed in a component stand that I built recently (photos when I get a chance), which sits where the end table is on the right. The end table has been moved elsewhere. Plus, I just bought a pair of Paradigm Studio 20's, although I'm not allowed to use 'em until Christmas.

I'm wondering about the supposed advantages of going 2.2 for music. With the omni-directional low-bass frequencies, are there any real advantages with 2 subs, other than being able to sum the output, so that each can individually play 3dB lower. Does it provide better imaging and soundstaging? Will a single sub, placed mid-way between the mains provide equally good imaging and soundstaging?

Here are my options, as I see them:

1) Go with the undercouch design. The only drawback I see, is that it will be several feet from the mains and I'm concerned about how well it'll integrate with them. It would use a 10W1V2 and BASH 300.

2) a pair of conventional subs - one in each corner, in front of the cabinets, with room to open the doors. I would tame down the corner loading with a DCX2496. Or, a single sub, if it would be more palatable for her. 2 x 10W1V2's and BASH 500 for a pair. 10W1V2 and BASH 300 for one sub (perhaps a 10W3V3 and BASH 500).

3) 1 or 2 in-ceiling subs - my current favourite option. I would install a pair directly above the mains, about 20" out from the wall, 2 x 10W1V2's and BASH 500. Or, a single sub centered between the mains, 20" out from the wall, 10W3V3 and BASH 500. This is where the question about a 2.1 or 2.2 setup applies.

Whichever way it goes, I'll be utilizing a DCX 2496 to cross over and equalize. All opinions are welcome.

Any of the options will work well, especially if you are using the DCX. With the delay that can be added, and the x-over + eq functions it can blend the sub in properly regardless of it's position.

Any of the options will exceed the performance you currently experience. Make the final decision and follow through with it completely.

 

[GO-NAD!]

Any of the options will work well, especially if you are using the DCX. With the delay that can be added, and the x-over + eq functions it can blend the sub in properly regardless of it's position.

Any of the options will exceed the performance you currently experience. Make the final decision and follow through with it completely.

Oh, I know any of them would be better. If it were you, which way would you go?

 

[annunaki]

Oh, I know any of them would be better. If it were you, which way would you go?

I think I would personally lean toward the two conventional subs as they allow for the most amount of placement variation.

 

[GO-NAD!]

I think I would personally lean toward the two conventional subs as they allow for the most amount of placement variation.

Between you and I, that makes all the sense in the world.

Now, pretend you are me, that you've pushed WAF to the limit and agreement on 2 conventional subs has been reached. But, with the knowledge that those 2 subs will go in the corners and never be allowed to move again.

What would you do then?

 

[annunaki]

Between you and I, that makes all the sense in the world.

Now, pretend you are me, that you've pushed WAF to the limit and agreement on 2 conventional subs has been reached. But, with the knowledge that those 2 subs will go in the corners and never be allowed to move again.

What would you do then?

2 conventional subs since I have a DCX

 

[annunaki]

2 conventional subs since I have a DCX

I would also work with my wife letting her pick the enclosure shape and color/finish.

I do that with my wife and it works pretty well.

I also let her know that I could be spending money on excessive drinking, womanizing, etc (not that I would anyway but it gets the point home), but I choose to use it on something the family can enjoy, and it keeps me home more often.

 

[GO-NAD!]

I would also work with my wife letting her pick the enclosure shape and color/finish.

I do that with my wife and it works pretty well.

I also let her know that I could be spending money on excessive drinking, womanizing, etc. but I choose to use it on something the family can enjoy, and it keeps me home more often.

I made up a list of the different designs, with pros and cons for each, so she would have input.

I like the idea of the conventional subs, as I can make enclosures that would look very nice (to me, not so sure about the wife). What do you think of up-firing drivers for conventional subs. I was thinking about the enclosure dimensions for the 10W1V2 that you provided (19.5"h x 15.5"w x 19.5"d). I was thinking that it could be taller and narrower - around 23"h x 16"w x 16"d - with the driver on top. I think the port would remain on the side, at the bottom, so "foreign objects" wouldn't get dumped in there (I have a 7-year old daughter).

I also like the idea of the in-ceiling enclosure. There would be no restriction on enclosure size and it wouldn't occupy any floor space. Have you looked at the sketch I posted a few days ago? My only concern is the possibility of vibration in the ceiling. Then again, there shouldn't be any more vibration from a subwoofer sitting on the ceiling joists, than one sitting on the floor - agree?

How did you make out with the in-wall sub for your friend? I'm very curious about your progress...

I will build the undercouch sub, if she just won't agree to anything else. It'll certainly be the cheapest and easiest to build. The drawbacks are having to take readings and recalibrate the DCX whenever she moves the furniture. Plus, I'd like to see my sub(s).

I remind her all the time, that I could be spending my money on other stuff. I don't smoke, gamble or womanize. I sold my motorcycle years ago (didn't have time to ride it anyway) and I don't drink heavily. That's when she generally caves in....