Man vs. God

[mtrycrafts]

... I believe this is because people like to justify everything they do as being right in our society. A good example of this is blaming a police officer for a speeding ticket. When I got mine my parents called the officer a jerk, but in reality he wasn't a jerk. I broke the law and as a result I paid the consequences. Without those laws our society is anarchy in the same way religion is anarchy without assertions. .....

I totally agree here, for a change Feels good to agree once in a while

 

[mtrycrafts]

... I don't need to know the truth for this.

Only that they are truthfully honest

 

[mtrycrafts]

Also, truth is a matter of perception. At the time the scriptures were written, it was a widely accepted belief that the world was flat, at the center of the universe, and the universe consisted of what people could see at night with an unaided eye. Now that we know the Earth is round, not at the center of anything, and the universe is ever expanding, does this current knowledge negate the truth of the day, as it was accepted to be then?

Yes, it does. What they thought wasn't the truth only their beliefs, lack of knowledge. Otherwise, truth is always a moving target and then there is never any truths just a moving target.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Funny, but the title of this thread keeps me thinking about Armageddon...

That too is coming, thanks to Andromeda's hunger for destruction
Or, is it universal truths about gravity, etc.

 

[newaudiofile]

Man Vs God.

Man Vs God.
What has man done that has actually benefited him?

If we are to evolve for the better then I guess we are doomed.

I wonder how distructive then evolved version of us will be like.

The Bible is not a science book but it does support science. When you read it you find out that the Bible mentioned long time ago that the earth is round.

Some religious bodies said the earth was flat and even persecuted scientist who proved that the earth was round.

Long before science the isrealites where given laws on quarantization because of desease. They were give rules on how to wash to prevent deseases. Rules that even the educated modern civilised man can not seem to follow.

When it comes down to it, it us humans who are to blame for everything that goes wrong.

We think we are so wise. Ask yourself. What have you achieve? Most people go through their whole adult life not knowing what they are about. And yet they are to evolve. Evolve into what? Evolve into know what they are about.

A robot knows its purpose. Because it has a function. What is our function as human beings? Maybe the evolutionist will give us some ideas.

 

[CraigV]

To all those who have doubts or are non believers:

I love science. I’m always watching The Science channel, Discovery, NatGeo, History…in particular for shows about astronomy and the universe. I’m also very excited to see the results of firing The Large Hadron Collider. What scientists hope to see is a simulation of what happened moments after the “Big Bang”. This has always been the stopping point for many of these shows – The first moments after the BB. No one yet has been able to explain how this infinitesimally small particle got there in the first place. Also, they can’t explain how the particle had somewhere & some when (space & time) to exist at all.

I don’t think any of us can properly conceptualize absolutely “nothing”. No particles of matter or energy, no space, no time – nothing. How could this teeny tiny thing appear literally out of nowhere? Did space and time exist before the BB, or come into being as a result of? I know some peoples answer would be “Simple – quantum physics” Well, if it were simple, we would all posses a greater understanding about what science is trying to prove. I just don’t see how something, no matter how small, could just come into being where nothing exists, not to mention turn into how it was able to expand into what we now call The Universe. I also think not many people can begin to appreciate just how vast the universe is.

 

[Davemcc]

I also think not many people can begin to appreciate just how vast the universe is.

Let's concentrate on this for a moment, shall we?

 

[highfigh]

To all those who have doubts or are non believers:

I love science. I’m always watching The Science channel, Discovery, NatGeo, History…in particular for shows about astronomy and the universe. I’m also very excited to see the results of firing The Large Hadron Collider. What scientists hope to see is a simulation of what happened moments after the “Big Bang”. This has always been the stopping point for many of these shows – The first moments after the BB. No one yet has been able to explain how this infinitesimally small particle got there in the first place. Also, they can’t explain how the particle had somewhere & some when (space & time) to exist at all.

I don’t think any of us can properly conceptualize absolutely “nothing”. No particles of matter or energy, no space, no time – nothing. How could this teeny tiny thing appear literally out of nowhere? Did space and time exist before the BB, or come into being as a result of? I know some peoples answer would be “Simple – quantum physics” Well, if it were simple, we would all posses a greater understanding about what science is trying to prove. I just don’t see how something, no matter how small, could just come into being where nothing exists, not to mention turn into how it was able to expand into what we now call The Universe. I also think not many people can begin to appreciate just how vast the universe is.

If you read the news (paper or online), it's obvious that the majority of the planet's population don't think about these things. They can't even think about how to keep out of trouble an hour after getting out of prison.

 

[CraigV]

If you read the news (paper or online), it's obvious that the majority of the planet's population don't think about these things. They can't even think about how to keep out of trouble an hour after getting out of prison.

True enough, but I’m talking about people whose profession & passion it is to find out the answer, and so far, they can’t. I really don’t think they ever will be able to. Here’s a great bit of insight written by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle for his character Sherlock Holms:

...when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.

A brilliant stroke of genius, insight and logic, penned for a fictional character, but no less relevant to the debate at hand.

 

[JerryLove]

What has man done that has actually benefited him?

What is the definition of "benefit" here?

The Bible is not a science book but it does support science. When you read it you find out that the Bible mentioned long time ago that the earth is round.

Martin Luther and John Calvin asserted that the Bible clearly established that the Sun moved around the Earth.

It is only after being convinced that the Earth orbits the sun that people started saying "that's what the Bible supports".

Long before science the isrealites where given laws on quarantization because of desease. They were give rules on how to wash to prevent deseases. Rules that even the educated modern civilised man can not seem to follow.

Sure. Patterns were hard to miss. They were also given several that were useless to preventing disease.

A robot knows its purpose. Because it has a function. What is our function as human beings? Maybe the evolutionist will give us some ideas.

I don't know what "robot" you are thinking of: but none I can come up with know anything at all.

 

[JerryLove]

This has always been the stopping point for many of these shows – The first moments after the BB. No one yet has been able to explain how this infinitesimally small particle got there in the first place.Also, they can’t explain how the particle had somewhere & some when (space & time) to exist at all.

Your understanding of big-bang theory is fundamentally flawed. The universe is time-space, not the matter contained within. Big Bang does not predict a small particle in the universe, it predicts a small universe.

I don’t think any of us can properly conceptualize absolutely “nothing”. No particles of matter or energy, no space, no time – nothing. How could this teeny tiny thing appear literally out of nowhere? Did space and time exist before the BB, or come into being as a result of?

We don't know the state of the universe prior to the BB. The rapid expansion of space-time is what the big bang is.

 

[JerryLove]

Probably the most compelling argument for Christian belief is the fear of hell. If you've got equal evidence and one choice means you live a little more moral life than some find that to be reasonable choice.

Pascal's wager. It has three problems.

1) A fear of the consequence does not make something true or false.
2) Belief is not a choice (experiment: have someone repeatedly hit you in the head and choose to believe it's not happening)
3) It's easily rewritten with a God that sends theists to hell for being superstitious; meaning it's better to be agnostic.

 

[JerryLove]

Why not infinite, what? Temperature? I would think infinite temperature would destroy any matter. OTOH, they say matter and energy are interchangeable and according to one of the basic laws of physics, energy can neither be created nor destroyed.

Timespace with a size of zero would have infinite temperature. Any size greater than zero would have less then infinite temperature.

The size of timespace prior ot the big bang is not known. It can only been said to be "very small".

And there was no matter in the universe even shortly after the big bang. The temperature was too high. Matter formed as the universe cooled.

 

[JerryLove]

I tend to go farther back, to the very beginning, to see where we came from. Hydrogen & helium developed into heavier elements, and combined to make stars. The clouds that gave the stars their mass also gave rise to heavier elements, which formed the planets. Some scientists believe the elements that begat life on our planet (and maybe even brought water) came from the many objects that collided with the Earth early in its development.

Dealing strictly with Barionic matter: pretty much everything heavier than hydrogen was created in stars.

 

[JerryLove]

I have a question for everyone that I find interesting and difficult to answer: How do you define good and evil?

How is "good and bad behavior" defined through something substantially different than "good and bad music" or "good and bad taste"?

 

[JerryLove]

On a board founded on the precept that objective measurements and scientifically rigorous testing is the only way to truly evaluate the claims of audio gear: this is an interesting discussion to find (not for being "not audio", but for proporting to debate the validity of science (actually, I've seen little accurately described science in the last 10 pages)

 

[highfigh]

Timespace with a size of zero would have infinite temperature. Any size greater than zero would have less then infinite temperature.

The size of timespace prior ot the big bang is not known. It can only been said to be "very small".

And there was no matter in the universe even shortly after the big bang. The temperature was too high. Matter formed as the universe cooled.

Re: time-space=0, that's what I have been taught. As expansion occurs, cooling also occurs.

One of the main questions I have and haven't seen an answer to (that makes sense) is "If there was no matter immediately or shortly after the Big Bang, where did the matter come from?" Also, if the universe was "very small", small, relative to what? if the universe is expanding, what's outside of it? Even an inflating balloon has atmosphere on the outside and in outer space, it still has outer space outside of it. Is the "universe" referring only to the matter and not the space or is the space included? If space is infinite, does this mean that there really are other universes in space? Our universe is said to be about 14 Billion years old but if space is infinite and our universe isn't, maybe other universes were created before ours. If perception of time is relative to speed, it would make sense that a day at the time of Creation wasn't our 24 hour day and that time is gradually slowing (didn't they recently retard the atomic clock?). Since we know black holes gobble up matter- is it possible that if other intelligent life existed in the past and they actually came here thousands of years ago, maybe their planet(s) were devoured by the nearest black hole?

 

[CraigV]

Your understanding of big-bang theory is fundamentally flawed. The universe is time-space, not the matter contained within. Big Bang does not predict a small particle in the universe, it predicts a small universe.

We don't know the state of the universe prior to the BB. The rapid expansion of space-time is what the big bang is.

So, where did this rapid expansion get its start? Are you suggesting all the matter in the universe is not relevant, nor a result of the BB?

 

[JerryLove]

As expansion occurs, cooling also occurs.

Correct. The total heat in the universe is (for the purpose of this conversation) fixed. As the universe gets larger, the average temperature drops (simplified to the point of error, but good enough for right now: avg temp = heat/volume)

One of the main questions I have and haven't seen an answer to (that makes sense) is "If there was no matter immediately or shortly after the Big Bang, where did the matter come from?"

For the purposes of this conversation (as there is the spontaneous creation/destruction of matter from vacuum energy, but it's trivial here), the matter now in the universe existed in its energy form just after the big bang. It precipitated from the cooling of the universe.

Also, if the universe was "very small", small, relative to what?

Its present size for one. Small relative to our ability to measure the size of something given the amount of time and space between then and now. Small in that "it approaches zero to the extent that we cannot measure it to be larger than zero with present instruments / information"

if the universe is expanding, what's outside of it?

There's no way to tell.

Is the "universe" referring only to the matter and not the space or is the space included? If space is infinite, does this mean that there really are other universes in space?

The universe refers to everything we interact with. An examination of that show it to be an expanding volume of time-space 16-billion light-years (or so) in size.

Space is not infinite.

Our universe is said to be about 14 Billion years old but if space is infinite and our universe isn't, maybe other universes were created before ours. If perception of time is relative to speed, it would make sense that a day at the time of Creation wasn't our 24 hour day and that time is gradually slowing (didn't they recently retard the atomic clock?).

The hebrew word used has the same meaning as our modern "day".

"I've worked all day"
"it's been three days"
"back in my day"

What makes the most sense to me is that there's little reason to try to correlate a parable with reality.

Since we know black holes gobble up matter- is it possible that if other intelligent life existed in the past and they actually came here thousands of years ago, maybe their planet(s) were devoured by the nearest black hole?

Sure.

 

[JerryLove]

So, where did this rapid expansion get its start?

There's no evidence from which to propose a testable hypothesis.

Are you suggesting all the matter in the universe is not relevant, nor a result of the BB?

I don't know what "relevant" means here, nor am I sure how you mean "result of".

The matter-energy of the universe, for the purpose of this conversation, existed in the universe immediately following the big bang. It was in its energy state as the temperature of the universe was too high for sub-atomic particles to form.

What the universe was like immediately prior to the big bang, or at the exact instant of the big bang is entirely unknown.