Man vs. God

[Davemcc]

All this quoting and interpreting of scripture is curious and irelevant to the topic. If one, just one, theological point in the bible could be shown to be true or even remotely credible then I could see actually answering questions with interpretations of scripture. The point is that what's written in the bible is not demonstrable and has no business being on the same casual discussion level as such demonstrable things as matter, gravity, energy, etc. Defending God's motives and expectations with scripture is absolutely useless unless the existence of God himself can be shown in some demonstrable way. It's putting the cart before the horse.

 

[adwilk]

Also, as we have learned through science that time slows as speed increases toward light, I have wondered now and again if the 6 days is from our reference point?

We have learned through science that there isn't a central reference point that we know of, and that time doesn't flow how we originally imaged...

Because I like to view things from both sides, perhaps the 6 days simply wasn't in the reference frame we imagined. For a god, that doesn't seem to far fetched.


But my godlessness seems to stem from the feelings that we are a little fuke, evolved from chaos into a chance of order, on a small planet that rotates about a little star in the corner of a ordinary galaxy. Sure blows my mind! Amazing huh?!

The "days" are described in the Bible as process of light and dark. There's absolutely no way to be sure thats a defined 24 hour period. For a believer in creation, its virtually irrelevant and just understood as "days". That said, the described seven day week of creation (not just Hebrew account but several) the calendar makes sense. The Sabbath was recognized by a few cultures and their documentation would lead us to believe that it was indeed one day, equal to that of the Roman Calendar.

There's the story (reputed) that Nasa found a missing day that is explained by a couple of occurrences in the scripture.

 

[adwilk]

All this quoting and interpreting of scripture is curious and irelevant to the topic. If one, just one, theological point in the bible could be shown to be true or even remotely credible then I could see actually answering questions with interpretations of scripture. The point is that what's written in the bible is not demonstrable and has no business being on the same casual discussion level as such demonstrable things as matter, gravity, energy, etc. Defending God's motives and expectations with scripture is absolutely useless unless the existence of God himself can be shown in some demonstrable way. It's putting the cart before the horse.

The original topic was creation vs evolution, but I understand what you're saying.

 

[Davemcc]

The original topic was creation vs evolution, but I understand what you're saying.

In the creation vs. evolution argument, the very first premise is to establish the existence of the creator. Without that first step, any word or action ascribed to such creator is moot.

From my point of view, it's simply "show me your God and I'll believe your scripture and promote creationism". If not, well....

 

[Alex2507]

All this quoting and interpreting of scripture is curious and irelevant to the topic.

What was the question?

If one, just one, theological point in the bible could be shown to be true or even remotely credible then I could see actually answering questions with interpretations of scripture.

What else would stop me from let's say choking some people out if I was not afraid of being caught by the police?

... casual discussion level ...

What does that mean? Casual? I mean why use that word there?
Are you doing this to me on purpose?

Defending God's motives and expectations with scripture is absolutely useless unless the existence of God himself can be shown in some demonstrable way. It's putting the cart before the horse.

You would eliminate faith ???

 

[Rickster71]

I went to a Catholic grammar school, and when I was in the sixth grade a priest would come into our classroom and talk to us and ask questions.

Our class happened to play the 'telephone game' earlier that week. The game where the first person whispers a phrase into the next persons ear, and so on down the line. By the time it gets to the last person, the phrase is unidentifiable from the original.

So (in front of the class) I ask the priest, "We played the telephone game the other day, and in a matter of minutes just one sentence came out all wrong."
"So how can everything in the bible be true, since it was written so long ago, and handed down so many times? (just like the telephone game)
The priest proceeded to walk over to me and slap me in the face, then made me stand in the back of the room facing the wall.

As hard as they tried, I never did get indoctrinated.

 

[Davemcc]

What was the question?

Bacon strips or peameal bacon.

What else would stop me from let's say choking some people out if I was not afraid of being caught by the police?

If fear of everlasting damnation will not stop you but fear of the police will, what use is religion?

What does that mean? Casual? I mean why use that word there?

This is not business conversation, official on-the-record legal testimony or binding arbitration on the matter. Just simple BS among friends, i.e. casual conversation.

Are you doing this to me on purpose?

I try not to use the big words around you but I type very slowly so you can keep up.

You would eliminate faith ???

Would if I could.

 

[highfigh]

As do particles. Then, how can it be infinitely small?

Why not infinite?

Perhaps just pure energy beforehand? How could it be infinitely small? Too immense to comprehend?

Hey! I'm asking the questions here!

That's one of the things I don't understand about the pre-Bang state of the Universe, from all I have heard and read about it.

Why not infinite, what? Temperature? I would think infinite temperature would destroy any matter. OTOH, they say matter and energy are interchangeable and according to one of the basic laws of physics, energy can neither be created nor destroyed.

I should have hung around one of the guys in my freshman algebra class more when I took physics. He works for NASA now. I bet he knows all of this stuff.

 

[highfigh]

I went to a Catholic grammar school, and when I was in the sixth grade a priest would come into our classroom and talk to us and ask questions.

Our class happened to play the 'telephone game' earlier that week. The game where the first person whispers a phrase into the next persons ear, and so on down the line. By the time it gets to the last person, the phrase is unidentifiable from the original.

So (in front of the class) I ask the priest, "We played the telephone game the other day, and in a matter of minutes just one sentence came out all wrong."
"So how can everything in the bible be true, since it was written so long ago, and handed down so many times? (just like the telephone game)
The priest proceeded to walk over to me and slap me in the face, then made me stand in the back of the room facing the wall.

As hard as they tried, I never did get indoctrinated.

That's what you get for asking that kind of question. That's also the kind of occurrence that keeps me out of Catholic churches.

I have to say, this is the most civil discussion about religion I have ever seen. 23 pages and it hasn't gotten ugly.

Good for us!

 

[croseiv]

This thead has ended it for me here. Peace and farewell...

 

[Alex2507]

This thead has ended it for me here. Peace and farewell...

It's because of Dave and Rick, isn't it?
Those sinnin' bastards!

 

[mtrycrafts]

Because the b-i-b-l-e told me so. The bible is very clear in that humans were created separate from the animals and given rule over animals.

Well, we do rule over them, don't we
And we are separate. We certainly don't live with them. Some do live with us though, as pets, below us

According the Old Testament, Humans were created specifically to glorify Him, the animals were not.

And that is achieved. Humans pray to Him, animals do not.

In some other ancient texts, philosophers considered it blasphemy to consider us equal to animals in creation but with rule over them. They assumed that, if we were created equal, then created our own rule over them, that we gave ourselves too much power and elevated our existence to that of the Creator. This would be a major no no.

But, we are not equal to animals. We do not share 100% of our DNA with them, something less. After all, they do have skins, body parts, stuff that can be similar and function in a similar manner, why have two different DNAs?
And, we are still above them
So, something has to be wrong.

 

[mtrycrafts]

....Defending God's motives and expectations with scripture is absolutely useless unless the existence of God himself can be shown in some demonstrable way. It's putting the cart before the horse.

Yes, it is sheer speculation, if that. But, we are discussing things here So far, peacefully
But, logic is certainly not part of the good book or discussions of it.

 

[Adam]

The priest proceeded to walk over to me and slap me in the face, then made me stand in the back of the room facing the wall.

Don't take it so personally. He saw the salmon sweatshirt, felt shame at his own desires, and took it out on you. If there's an epilogue...I don't want to hear it.

NTTAWWT.

Seriously, though, I think that the Church's philosophy is that God would not allow the stories to become corrupted. If it truly is the word of God, then it would remain correct.

 

[Alex2507]

That's also the kind of occurrence that keeps me out of Catholic churches.

What, you don't go to church because Rick can't keep his mouth shut?

J/K Rick. I'm sorry that guy slapped the sh!t out of you and probably countless others. I went to Catholic schools and amazingly enough I came out of it without getting hit ... except in the rear.

No, I'm kidding.

 

[adwilk]

But, logic is certainly not part of the good book or discussions of it.

It has been peaceful and I do appreciate that. That statement steps on my toes a bit, but I understand it. Its tough for Christians/Religious at time to sit back and just relax. For most, their cage gets rattled and their insecurity leads to belittling, judgment, and rejection. Even though some want to be able to reach out and change lives, thats not what Christians are commissioned to do. Its only to take a stand and share their faith, not beat people up with it.

I respect the individuals involved in science and technology and know that they are some of the sharpest minds on the planet. I have no reason to question what they find, but perhaps why and how they found it...

 

[CraigV]

Not yet. Maybe tomorrow.

Maybe not ever. Can anyone truly conceive of absolute nothing? No matter, no particles – not even a space or time for such things to exist. How can you possibly get something out of absolute nothing without some divine intervention?
You mean it didn't have a beginning? Is he alone? Why??? What happened before it? Why create this experiment?

Our limited understanding of time would suggest no beginning nor end – That’s what the creator is. And it’s not an experiment, more of a curiosity.

Why would it do that? Takes too long? What happens after this experiment? Was it a school project?

See above - Again, why create everything (down to the last molecule) when you can set a series of occurrences in motion, and wait to see what happens.


No others species out there in the vast universe? We are alone? Kind of a waste, no?
If there are others, what then? Or, maybe that is what it is testing in the school experiment?

See my follow up post #209

What is the need for such a being beyond a mind exercise?

Not everyone is able to tune into the larger sense of faith and understanding beyond their mortal perceptions

That is one interpretation of a book passage. Why does man need a soul? Purpose? Proof?

My purpose & proof is unique to me, and would make o sense to you. It’s a feeling larger than myself and defies conventional sensory detection, leaving one ultimate conclusion

You mean we'll be supernatural beings after our deaths? Must be to be next to it, to experience it, no?
YES!

What is at the heart of the matter is truth, and really no one here (or anywhere) knows the absolute truth. I merely suggest an alternate viewpoint as I have to look with some skepticism at religious texts that were written by humans, not “The Almighty”

 

[Alex2507]

The universe is six minutes old !!!

 

[CraigV]

All this quoting and interpreting of scripture is curious and irelevant to the topic. If one, just one, theological point in the bible could be shown to be true or even remotely credible then I could see actually answering questions with interpretations of scripture. The point is that what's written in the bible is not demonstrable and has no business being on the same casual discussion level as such demonstrable things as matter, gravity, energy, etc. Defending God's motives and expectations with scripture is absolutely useless unless the existence of God himself can be shown in some demonstrable way. It's putting the cart before the horse.

I have watched may programs that try and explain how occurrences in religious text can be explained through conventional means. Just this past weekend I watched a program that explains how (scientifically) each of the 10 plagues could easily have happened in Egypt during the time of Moses.

 

[Davemcc]

I have watched may programs that try and explain how occurrences in religious text can be explained through conventional means. Just this past weekend I watched a program that explains how (scientifically) each of the 10 plagues could easily have happened in Egypt during the time of Moses.

It is not a question of whether certain events did or did not happen in the recorded history of the bible. I have no doubt that Jesus was a man who was crucified by the Romans. I only ask for substantive evidence of the theological claims in the bible. The bible seems to contain a mix of verifiable history with some wild supranatural claims. But showing that Palestine was a real place in history is not credible proof that Jesus is the son of God or that God created the earth.

Take, for instance, the Da Vinci Code. We know France exists and we have credible historical evidence that the Templars existed. Given the logic of demonstrated by this argument applied to this book, that means that Jesus and Mary did unquestionably have a child that was smuggled to France, despite the lack of evidence to show such a child existed.