Rickster71

Rickster71

Audioholic Spartan
Don't take it so personally. He saw the salmon sweatshirt, felt shame at his own desires, and took it out on you. If there's an epilogue...I don't want to hear it. :D

NTTAWWT. :)
I was a snappy dresser, even back then...guilty as charged.:D
 
MidnightSensi

MidnightSensi

Audioholic Samurai
Take, for instance, the Da Vinci Code. We know France exists and we have credible historical evidence that the Templars existed. Given the logic of demonstrated by this argument applied to this book, that means that Jesus and Mary did unquestionably have a child that was smuggled to France, despite the lack of evidence to show such a child existed.
They didn't make a sex tape though....
 
CraigV

CraigV

Audioholic General
It is not a question of whether certain events did or did not happen in the recorded history of the bible. I have no doubt that Jesus was a man who was crucified by the Romans. I only ask for substantive evidence of the theological claims in the bible. The bible seems to contain a mix of verifiable history with some wild supranatural claims. But showing that Palestine was a real place in history is not credible proof that Jesus is the son of God or that God created the earth.

Take, for instance, the Da Vinci Code. We know France exists and we have credible historical evidence that the Templars existed. Given the logic of demonstrated by this argument applied to this book, that means that Jesus and Mary did unquestionably have a child that was smuggled to France, despite the lack of evidence to show such a child existed.
Truth - What we all seek.

In my 47+ years, I have had to face some truths about myself that weren’t very pleasant. One of the hardest was this; Often times, the behaviors, actions & attitudes I am critical of in other people are ones I exhibit, and don’t like about myself. When confronted with the truth about a behavior we posses by another person, we often become defensive. Likewise, when we are asked to at least consider an idea that is in opposition to a long held belief, we are hesitant to do so.

Here is an idea I have, and I hope everyone will at least try to see it from my perspective;
The creator saw humans developing and saw we were capable of understanding that there was something more to our surroundings, so he endowed us with a soul to make the connection with him. As we evolved & developed, many humans tried to explain forces of nature that were all around them. Lacking scientific knowledge and means, they reached deep inside & explained away these things as acts of “gods” – beings greater than themselves. As time went by, the creator saw that these human creatures were ruled by their emotions. He decided to take on these emotions so as to have a better understanding of these people. This experience prompted the creator to use messengers that would be at once familiar, and extraordinary to people to convey his desires for how we should lead our lives. This gave rise to the writings of the Dead Sea scrolls, and all religious texts since. But, these texts were written by man, and thus open to his interpretation, and their limited understanding. Indeed, religion became the rule of the day, and the law of the land. When a new leader, king, emperor etc. came into power, they had their book of choice close at hand. While each emerging religion seemed OK with acknowledging the others, each proclaimed theirs was the “One true (and therefore correct) belief system”. This lead to many wars as each in turn tried to rein dominance over all others, and all people. If you stood opposed, or even offered differing viewpoints, you were deemed a heretic, and killed.

Today, many people find it is easier to reference their text of choice to justify their words & actions, while putting their own spin on the stories to fit their side of a debate. All text, be it the Bible, Torah, Koran, Darwin’s journal…take your pick – each is subject to interpretation, and with over six billion people, there are over six billion differing opinions on just what the truth is. So what is the truth? No one really knows. The best we can do is seek out what we feel most comfortable with and keep it as our own. I try to keep a very open mind to all the possibilities, and encourage everyone to do the same.
 
mperfct

mperfct

Audioholic Samurai
Religion is the creation of man. Spirituality is the acknowledgement and embracement of the divine.

I think by ascribing to a religion you are pigeon-holing yourself and limiting what truth you will allow yourself to be exposed to.
 
lsiberian

lsiberian

Audioholic Overlord
It is interesting to read the thread as it progresses.

The last two posts seem to promote universalism which has become the dominate philosophy of our culture. I believe this is because people like to justify everything they do as being right in our society. A good example of this is blaming a police officer for a speeding ticket. When I got mine my parents called the officer a jerk, but in reality he wasn't a jerk. I broke the law and as a result I paid the consequences. Without those laws our society is anarchy in the same way religion is anarchy without assertions. Luther stated that Christianity is built on assertions and that no separation can be made from these. His argument was against Erasmus over matters of Christian faith. But to put it bluntly you can't be a Christian and state there are many ways to God because it means Jesus would have died for nothing.

His sacrifice is the whole crux of Christian faith.

I also see people in our society call Christians intolerant, but this friends is inherently hypocritical. If you don't tolerate intolerance than you are intolerant of intolerance and therefore intolerant of yourself. Is your head spinning? That's because it's a crazy idea. Of course no Christian should be cussing out gays or even singling them out like many do. There are many other sins we need to address too.

I think one thing we can all realize is that this matter requires choices. Both sides have very good arguments that are well-formed. You may not get them if you hang around in the wrong circles, but believe me they are there for both positions. Probably the most compelling argument for Christian belief is the fear of hell. If you've got equal evidence and one choice means you live a little more moral life than some find that to be reasonable choice.

Now don't equate those funeral protesters with the rest of the church. We can all read Galatians 5:22-23 where the fruit of the Spirit (the identifying traits of a believer) are unconditional love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, faithfulness and self-control. If you see claimed Christian acting outside these bounds do me a favor and ask them why they don't act like Galatians 5.

Despite my appeared tone at times I want you all to know you're truly welcome at my place or even on pm at anytime. I also invite anyone to call me out when you think I act outside those bounds. That is the code I seek to live by everyday and it's that lifestyle that is truly Christian. Not crusading, condemning, hating, burning, and violence. Jesus was the one who coined the golden rule and said to love your enemies. This is an uphill battle for us all, but what we should aim for in all things.

I realize I got a bit preachy, but I'm training to be a preacher so suit somebody. Not me because I'm not a televangelist so you won't get anything.
 
Alex2507

Alex2507

Audioholic Slumlord
I have no doubt that Jesus was a man who was crucified by the Romans.
Right, me too. It's the next part about him being raised from the dead that you're not buying. In any case it's no big deal. I just means that I'm suppose to be a good boy instead of a murderous, thieving sociopath. :)

It is interesting to read the thread as it progresses.

The last two posts seem to promote universalism which has become the dominate philosophy of our culture. I believe this is because people like to justify everything they do as being right in our society. A good example of this is blaming a police officer for a speeding ticket. When I got mine my parents called the officer a jerk, but in reality he wasn't a jerk. I broke the law and as a result I paid the consequences. Without those laws our society is anarchy in the same way religion is anarchy without assertions. Luther stated that Christianity is built on assertions and that no separation can be made from these. His argument was against Erasmus over matters of Christian faith. But to put it bluntly you can't be a Christian and state there are many ways to God because it means Jesus would have died for nothing.

His sacrifice is the whole crux of Christian faith.

I also see people in our society call Christians intolerant, but this friends is inherently hypocritical. If you don't tolerate intolerance than you are intolerant of intolerance and therefore intolerant of yourself. Is your head spinning? That's because it's a crazy idea. Of course no Christian should be cussing out gays or even singling them out like many do. There are many other sins we need to address too.

I think one thing we can all realize is that this matter requires choices. Both sides have very good arguments that are well-formed. You may not get them if you hang around in the wrong circles, but believe me they are there for both positions. Probably the most compelling argument for Christian belief is the fear of hell. If you've got equal evidence and one choice means you live a little more moral life than some find that to be reasonable choice.

Now don't equate those funeral protesters with the rest of the church. We can all read Galatians 5:22-23 where the fruit of the Spirit (the identifying traits of a believer) are unconditional love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, faithfulness and self-control. If you see claimed Christian acting outside these bounds do me a favor and ask them why they don't act like Galatians 5.

Despite my appeared tone at times I want you all to know you're truly welcome at my place or even on pm at anytime. I also invite anyone to call me out when you think I act outside those bounds. That is the code I seek to live by everyday and it's that lifestyle that is truly Christian. Not crusading, condemning, hating, burning, and violence. Jesus was the one who coined the golden rule and said to love your enemies. This is an uphill battle for us all, but what we should aim for in all things.

I realize I got a bit preachy, but I'm training to be a preacher so suit somebody. Not me because I'm not a televangelist so you won't get anything.
So is it wrong to snap your carrot?
 
lsiberian

lsiberian

Audioholic Overlord
Right, me too. It's the next part about him being raised from the dead that you're not buying. In any case it's no big deal. I just means that I'm suppose to be a good boy instead of a murderous, thieving sociopath. :)



So is it wrong to snap your carrot?
Always take a serious topic and turn it into comedy.:rolleyes:

If it weren't you I'd bring down hellfire and brimstone.:D

You can snap your carrot I think as long as your nice about it. :) I mean it does help ward of temptation.
 
J

Jeepers

Full Audioholic
Truth - What we all seek.


Today, many people find it is easier to reference their text of choice to justify their words & actions, while putting their own spin on the stories to fit their side of a debate. All text, be it the Bible, Torah, Koran, Darwin’s journal…take your pick – each is subject to interpretation, and with over six billion people, there are over six billion differing opinions on just what the truth is. So what is the truth? No one really knows. The best we can do is seek out what we feel most comfortable with and keep it as our own. I try to keep a very open mind to all the possibilities, and encourage everyone to do the same.
Interesting post. The most important thing to me is not to seek out the truth because, as you said, no one really knows, but to live according to certain values. Some people may find these in religion and others don't.
 
lsiberian

lsiberian

Audioholic Overlord
Interesting post. The most important thing to me is not to seek out the truth because, as you said, no one really knows, but to live according to certain values. Some people may find these in religion and others don't.
The problem is that when we assume no one knows the truth we pretty much have an anything goes society. How do you define values without truth?

Why wouldn't a person seek truth out? Isn't gravity true? If I jump I go down. That is a truth. There are certainly many truths that can be and are known. We base medicine, transportation and life of the truths we hold too.

I would contend that I do know the truth and the truth has set me free from my previous way of living.

I leave this as food for thought.
 
lsiberian

lsiberian

Audioholic Overlord
Mister Dave what would you define this as?

I only ask for substantive evidence of the theological claims in the bible

I find the statement confusing and seek clarity.

Theology is proven by Tradition, Scripture, Reason and Experience.
 
CraigV

CraigV

Audioholic General
The problem is that when we assume no one knows the truth we pretty much have an anything goes society. How do you define values without truth?

Why wouldn't a person seek truth out? Isn't gravity true? If I jump I go down. That is a truth. There are certainly many truths that can be and are known. We base medicine, transportation and life of the truths we hold too.

I would contend that I do know the truth and the truth has set me free from my previous way of living.

I leave this as food for thought.

There are certainly many truths we can all readily identify. I was speaking as to the true origins of creation, and how we all came to being – the truth behind exactly how that happened is not known by anyone.
 
CraigV

CraigV

Audioholic General
Mister Dave what would you define this as?

I only ask for substantive evidence of the theological claims in the bible

I find the statement confusing and seek clarity.

Theology is proven by Tradition, Scripture, Reason and Experience.
Also, truth is a matter of perception. At the time the scriptures were written, it was a widely accepted belief that the world was flat, at the center of the universe, and the universe consisted of what people could see at night with an unaided eye. Now that we know the Earth is round, not at the center of anything, and the universe is ever expanding, does this current knowledge negate the truth of the day, as it was accepted to be then?
 
J

Jeepers

Full Audioholic
The problem is that when we assume no one knows the truth we pretty much have an anything goes society. How do you define values without truth?

Why wouldn't a person seek truth out? Isn't gravity true? If I jump I go down. That is a truth. There are certainly many truths that can be and are known. We base medicine, transportation and life of the truths we hold too.

I would contend that I do know the truth and the truth has set me free from my previous way of living.

I leave this as food for thought.
I am happy for you knowing the truth but it is still the way you see it i.e. your perception of the truth. What I meant was that I don't need to know the 'one and only truth' to live my life. e.g. The most important value in life for me is that people are honest and that you can rely on them and that is also the way I try to live. I don't need to know the truth for this.
 
Davemcc

Davemcc

Audioholic Spartan
Mister Dave what would you define this as?

I only ask for substantive evidence of the theological claims in the bible

I find the statement confusing and seek clarity.

Theology is proven by Tradition, Scripture, Reason and Experience.
I'll make this easy.

Demonstrate the veracity of your last line.
 
croseiv

croseiv

Audioholic Samurai
Funny, but the title of this thread keeps me thinking about Armageddon...:)
 
Davemcc

Davemcc

Audioholic Spartan
That word "proven" would have to extend beyond its normal definition. No gettin around that.
Every definition in the vocabulary of rational discussion is strained when trying to prove the unreal is real. No gettin' around that.;)
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
I have watched may programs that try and explain how occurrences in religious text can be explained through conventional means. Just this past weekend I watched a program that explains how (scientifically) each of the 10 plagues could easily have happened in Egypt during the time of Moses.
Except, there is no historical evidence that even one such plague occurred, on other similar programs. Oh, yes, I saw that explanation too in the past.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
...The bible seems to contain a mix of verifiable history ....
Well, we do need to be careful which is historically verified by credible sources. A lot is not. No plagues, no innocent baby killings to kill Jesus at birth, no 3 visitors with gifts, no special solar event, etc. Certainly lots of other such claims are grossly inaccurate.
The books are trying to fulfill some ancient prophesy. Easy to do, just write about it.
 

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