Man vs. God

[NicolasKL]

My life was a mess and Jesus offered hope, satisfaction and a relationship. I found myself feeling like the woman in John 8 condemn and convicted of the mess I'd made my life. I cried out to Jesus and he answered me he came and made a home in my life. He's lead me to every great thing in my life. The trips overseas, my degree, my wife, my calling and future. I was transformed as described in Romans page 12. It's an experience that transcends any other human experience.

My parents and brother can tell you that it made a huge difference in my life. They have mentioned it many times.

Before I settled on being a follower of the Jesus way. I was pretty deep into eastern mysticism. I used to practice Tajichaun, and chi-goong. I used to meditate in ice cold water and was advancing along at what I thought was a good rate. I longed for something to fill a void within and I found the truths of the Christian faith(ones in scripture not necessarily always shown) Loving your neighbors and being a servant to be the right way to live.

I would say that I don't know of an explanation of how a person can sit in ice cold water and not freeze by simply using a breathing exercise.

So what is your opinion of non-christian religions? Presumably you believe that Jesus is the son of God and that, therefore, your religion is "correct" and other religions are not?

 

[mtrycrafts]

That is MY point. I couldn't accurately ascertain HIS POINT due to his nonstandard use of a common word.

Yes, and if we did that with all the words, all the time, it be madness, chaos.

 

[lsiberian]

You may say this but when did the church say that the book was wrong? The cannot as then the book becomes fallible, no? And, once it is fallible it has no relevancy.

You're dealing in a lot of absolutes.(likely heard from fundamentalists) The majority of protestants hold the view that the bible is infallible in matters of faith and practice. They also tend to recognize certain texts like Romans have more authority then others like Jude

The canon has the books listed largely in order of inclusion. I'd argue that Jesus is the Word of God though even more so than the bible itself.
It must be acknowledged that the bible was largely written by a non scientific culture. This is why there are so many questions like the free-will - predestination argument. However the doctrine of salvation is pretty well laid out by Paul in the text of Romans. If you want answers to a lot of questions regarding the faith. This is a good text to study.

The inerrancy of scripture is a largely limited to fundamentalists and can even then only be claimed in the original texts which no one actually has. Remember anything you read is likely to be a translation(assuming your not greek)

 

[mtrycrafts]

...
It must be acknowledged that the bible was largely written by a non scientific culture.

That is for sure.

Remember anything you read is likely to be a translation(assuming your not greek)

Why Greek? Is that the text of the original books?

 

[mtrycrafts]

I think perhaps the main thing missing here as that at the densities we're talking about a singularity is formed in which general relativity breaks down, ie, the universe doesn't behave in the manner in which we're accustomed to. The same thing happens at the center of black holes (which are also singularities).

OK, that certainly would make sense Now trying to have an inkling of that behavior

 

[lsiberian]

That is for sure.



Why Greek? Is that the text of the original books?

Yes the original texts are in Greek for the New Testament.

The most logical books are written by Paul. Who was known to be a 1st century nerd. But logic has been much more developed in recent years.

In a twist of irony early Christians were called atheists. The Christian faith thrives the most under persecution. Which is why the Chinese church is the largest and among the fastest growing.

 

[Davemcc]

I wonder if Dave's post was re-worded to: The first requirement of faith is to discard reason.
That may work better? (Dave, not trying to put words in your mouth. Just helping)

Actually, that's generally how I phrase that term. You and Adam are both correct in your comments.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Yes the original texts are in Greek for the New Testament.

The most logical books are written by Paul. Who was known to be a 1st century nerd. But logic has been much more developed in recent years.

In a twist of irony early Christians were called atheists. The Christian faith thrives the most under persecution. Which is why the Chinese church is the largest and among the fastest growing.

And the Old Testament? Why would Paul write in Greek, don't think that was his native language. Maybe he wasn't fluent?

 

[lsiberian]

So what is your opinion of non-christian religions? Presumably you believe that Jesus is the son of God and that, therefore, your religion is "correct" and other religions are not?

Not just the Son of God, but he is God. The doctrine of the trinity is best explained by the family view. Which has God being like an extremely close family beyond the unity possible. This borders on tri-theism. But is one way to describe it.

On the other point. If I affirm that breaking God's commands results in condemnation. And the price for that is to perish. Then I determine that only the Jesus way has the gift of eternal life than I have no choice but to say other beliefs are incorrect. I don't choose to use harsh words and their are many questions raised by this. I also assert it possible for a person to be saved by a proper belief. My evidence for this is an Islamic friend of mine who had a dream in which Jesus appeared to him. He believed in Jesus yet no one ever told him about Jesus. He came to us afterward for baptism. This has happened to numerous Muslims. Who face the threat of death for following Jesus. These aren't just made up stories they are real experiences which have served to deepen my belief.

FYI Faith was a made up word by the translators of the King James Bible. Where you see the word faith in the bible you can interchange the word belief. Now by belief it must be emphasized we are talking holistic belief not just head belief.

 

[Adam]

lsiberian, I don't subscribe to all of your beliefs, but I'd like to commend you on some very well written explanations of them. You have made very clear points and explained your reasoning.

 

[Davemcc]

Somebody writing something down in a book clearly isn't evidence enough, so why believe all the "science" that you learned from a book in school as absolute fact?

I don't know what they did where you went to school but up here they taught science by having students perform a bunch of experiments in class with Bunsen burners and such. I think the idea is that experience in some aspects that demonstrate the concept leads to extrapolation that other such events could take place in different places or on different scales. On the other hand, I used to pray as a small child and nothing ever came of that so there is nothing to extrapolate from that experience.

 

[Davemcc]

As do particles. Then, how can it be infinitely small?

Perhaps just pure energy beforehand? How could it be infinitely small? Too immense to comprehend?

Matter and energy are interchangeable. Matter takes up space. Energy does not.

 

[Davemcc]

And the Old Testament? Why would Paul write in Greek, don't think that was his native language. Maybe he wasn't fluent?

The Middle East (Palestine, Jerusalem, etc) were governed by the Romans at the time of Jesus, obviously. In Roman society, most people spoke Latin but the the upper class, the aristocracy if you will, spoke Greek. Greek was considered that language of classical arts and culture by the Romans. IIRC, Paul travelled through Rome spreading the Gospel. In order to convert the powerful and influential, he would have to have communicated in Greek.

This is not a unique phenomena. In medieval Europe, the upper class and clergy were educated in Latin. In Imperial Russia, the aristocracy spoke French. You can still see this in many countries today, where the population speaks a native tongue but the leaders speak English, the universal language of business, science and international relations.

 

[MatthewB.]

I find this thread very informative and can see both sides and agree on both sides (being agnostic I can do that) where as the die hard atheist and die hard christian, jew or whatever you worship cannot. It is either one way to believe and you can't change their mind.

Being agnostic, I can still pray during the tough times and still have the courage to ask for more proof in the existance of God or refute the bible in part or in whole. This to me is what God would want, he would want his children to ask questions for answers, he would want diversity and not have all of his "children" to be sheep and just be of one mind.

If there is a God and that's a really big if in my book, to me he would need to be the type of guy with a great sense of humor and alot of friggin patience to see all the inhumanity that goes on down here.

Something to ponder if all creatures great and small are the children of God, then what of the insects who don't have the brain capability to undrestand the existance of God would that insect go to hell and if that is the case, what of a severly mentally challanged person or one who following an accident could not understand the concept, would they be automatically be banished to hell for not having the understanding. But before you answer remember according to catholicism you have to give yourself entirely to God to be admitted into heaven.

For me scinece can be proven and religion has far too much to be proven and relies too much on a book written at a time when war, famine, no healthcare and most of the population was uneducated. Yet they write this book based not on one pure God but based on the hundreds of different Gods that were out there at that time and then grouped them into one true God and hence a religion and a manual (the bible) was written.

Man has evloved in education, inetlligence and logic in the 2,000 years since then and we as humans have a better undrestanding of how things do work, but you still get the die hard relgious people who still cliam to faith. If you recall 2,000 years ago God created light (the sun), yet science has proven how stars are formed and that our "light" is not the one and only in our solar system. You can mention this to any religious person but they will not even ponder the thought, while an agnostic will hear their side and try to show both sides. I have had many conversations with religious zealots who come to my doorway and after speaking with them, I never get any logical answers and I had at one time asked a variety of questions of a Mormon who said he would come back to my house to answer my questions (after having spoken with his elders) he came back the following week and couldnt answer not one of my mnay questions of his faith. But yet I am to just follow his belief to achieve my acceptance into heaven. (BTW this religion of Mormonism believes the more money you give to the church the higher up in heaven you will attain. I love that one. I sure didn't know God accepted Visa or Mastercard and from my understanding as long as I am giving more than 10% of my income, then I can be a sinner and still achieve a higher level of heaven than one who does not sin.

I also found it humerous that while typing this thread, this banner was at the top of the page.

 

[highfigh]

What I find interesting about Religion is how easy people are to believe a certain religion and diprove all others and each religion is either their way or the highway.

Take Mormons for instance. Their leader Joseph Smith who was a con man and convicted of child molestation is run out of town and hides in the hills and comes back two years later with this story about magic rocks and telling his story of how God spoke with him. When tested about these "magic rocks" the story was never the same even though Joseph should've been reading the same lines word for word if he truly were the only one who could read from them. So he builds a following who a few years later try to kill him and his brother and pretty much all of his followers leave finding out he is nothing but a con man and had duped his flock. But a few stick by him and the overtime convince more people and now we have the Mormons and some of their offbread shoot who apparently still believe in child molestation and multiple wives.

I know a very devout Jew and her and her family refuse to use electricty or cars from Friday at midnight till Sunday at midinght or after dark I forget. I asked her where it says in the scripture that thall shall not use electricity or automobiles and she says it doesnt. But because of their interpretations they have these bizarre restrictions. And I will never get the not eating pork thing. Mmmmmmbacon

Then there's the TV evengalists whyo preach from on high all the while asking for donations (cause their jets and Rolls need gas) Then we have all the priests in the news diddling little boys.

To me religion has become a business and is run by the biggest conmen of all time, and yet weekly millions go to church seeking salvation and an answer to all the prayers which as far as I know still haven't come, but I have to have faith that Rapture will come and all the good ones will go to heaven and all the bad will stay here in pergurtory. Well lets' recap what I know, so far, All the ultra religious are some of the meanest judgemental people I know, their leaders when not ruining a childhood are taking their followers money and the followers are like sheep doing what their leaders tell them.

Meanwhile as an agnostic, I judge people on their actions and help those I immediatly come into contact with, wether it be a person stranded or a homeless man who needs a few bucks for a meal (even though I know he'll buy booze) I don't molet kids and have never guilted anyone to try and make a profit.

Now when rapture comes, I think who has a better chance of getting in. The agnostic who was true to himself and tried to help others but had doubts in his faith or those who claim to have faith but commit a multitude of sins. The things that make you go Hmmmmmm.

If you want an eye opener, look into the similarities between Judaism and Islam. Dates, diet, Sabbath observance, important people, places and events. Judaism, Christianity and Islam all have the same God, whose name is different only because of the languages spoken. All three religions are based on the teachings of Abraham and the Old Testament. Only Christianity holds that Jesus is the Son of God and the Savior but Judaism and Islam acknowledge him and in fact, he's considered a prophet in Islam, and will return to Heaven on Judgment Day. I used google and Wiki after 9-11, when I wanted to know what kind of weapons-grade A-holes would fly jets into skyscrapers.

 

[NicolasKL]

Not just the Son of God, but he is God. The doctrine of the trinity is best explained by the family view. Which has God being like an extremely close family beyond the unity possible. This borders on tri-theism. But is one way to describe it.

On the other point. If I affirm that breaking God's commands results in condemnation. And the price for that is to perish. Then I determine that only the Jesus way has the gift of eternal life than I have no choice but to say other beliefs are incorrect. I don't choose to use harsh words and their are many questions raised by this. I also assert it possible for a person to be saved by a proper belief. My evidence for this is an Islamic friend of mine who had a dream in which Jesus appeared to him. He believed in Jesus yet no one ever told him about Jesus. He came to us afterward for baptism. This has happened to numerous Muslims. Who face the threat of death for following Jesus. These aren't just made up stories they are real experiences which have served to deepen my belief.

FYI Faith was a made up word by the translators of the King James Bible. Where you see the word faith in the bible you can interchange the word belief. Now by belief it must be emphasized we are talking holistic belief not just head belief.

How did he know it was Jesus if he didn't know who Jesus was?

Do you think that it never happens that Christians convert to another religion due to a dream/visitation/spiritual experience/etc? That it's only a one way (the RIGHT way!) street?

It's very obvious that the primary determinant of which religion you're a member of is where you're born and how you're raised (probably the primary determinant for yourself as well). That seems like a pretty cruel game to play, denying people the gift of eternal life for being born in the "wrong" place.

What about the millions of people that existed for the thousands of years before Christianity existed? Just SOL too?

Mankind existed for thousands of years prior to any of the current crop of religions popping up. I think that, combined with how the religions that DO pop up are frequently so different from one another, is pretty compelling evidence for those religions being inventions of man.

The only honest theist is a deist IMO.

 

[NicolasKL]

I think a prohibition against pork doesn't make a lot of sense a strictly religious practice, but it makes perfect sense when you consider that omnivores like pigs had a tendency to carry parasites and other diseases that wouldn't be found in herbivores like cows or sheep.

Some well meaning, observant soul figures out that eating pig can mess you up and wants to make sure everyone knows it and refrains from it. What's the best way to convince people that they shouldn't do it? Tell them God said so. From what I've read of the Bible it makes a lot more sense if you ignore all the parts about religion and God and evaluate it strictly as an instruction manual on how to start the beginnings of a civilized society.

 

[highfigh]

1) Uh, after those temperatures and pressures diminished, then they became elements.

You're not just talking about collisions, you're talking about immense temperatures. Gluons and quarks existed first, then when it cooled down enough, protons and neutrons, then when it cooled down further, electrons, then when it cooled down further, helium and deuterium.

Still, if matter of any type is in a small space and it's active, collisions will occur. I can't see how they can be avoided. In a larger space, electron paths are larger and collisions would then be a matter of chance and less frequent.

2) I don't really understand the problem. The universe is mostly empty space, and atoms are mostly empty space. The universe is quite, quite, empty.

If elements are compressed enough, they're either destroyed or fused, right? What happens to subatomic particles?

They're "destroyed" in that they're broken up into subatomic particles and no longer exist as elements. They existed as elementary particles.

1) OK, but why did this happen? Why not some other processes and events?

2) The universe is mostly empty space but there's a helluva lot of objects out there, made of all kinds of different matter. A black hole alone is so massive that light can't escape it's gravitational pull and we now know there are many black holes of various sizes. As I asked, how can all of this mass and matter have been in an infinitesimally small space before the Big Bang?

 

[highfigh]

Nah, because I have evidence that the potatos came from Idaho.

Wisconsin grows a lot of potatoes, too and all we hear is "Idaho this, Idaho that". Frankly, we, who live in Wisconsin, are pretty tired of it. Either we get some recognition, or we'll stop shipping our spuds, which happen to be the preferred ammo for the vaunted spud gun.

Your science is faulty.

 

[highfigh]

You're dealing in a lot of absolutes.(likely heard from fundamentalists) The majority of protestants hold the view that the bible is infallible in matters of faith and practice. They also tend to recognize certain texts like Romans have more authority then others like Jude

The canon has the books listed largely in order of inclusion. I'd argue that Jesus is the Word of God though even more so than the bible itself.
It must be acknowledged that the bible was largely written by a non scientific culture. This is why there are so many questions like the free-will - predestination argument. However the doctrine of salvation is pretty well laid out by Paul in the text of Romans. If you want answers to a lot of questions regarding the faith. This is a good text to study.

The inerrancy of scripture is a largely limited to fundamentalists and can even then only be claimed in the original texts which no one actually has. Remember anything you read is likely to be a translation(assuming your not greek)

Weren't the original scriptures written in Aramaic? I know early versions of the Bible were written in various languages in order to avoid persecution, but I thought Greek was more of the "acceptable" version.