Man vs. God

[highfigh]

How did he know it was Jesus if he didn't know who Jesus was?

Do you think that it never happens that Christians convert to another religion due to a dream/visitation/spiritual experience/etc? That it's only a one way (the RIGHT way!) street?

It's very obvious that the primary determinant of which religion you're a member of is where you're born and how you're raised (probably the primary determinant for yourself as well). That seems like a pretty cruel game to play, denying people the gift of eternal life for being born in the "wrong" place.

What about the millions of people that existed for the thousands of years before Christianity existed? Just SOL too?

Mankind existed for thousands of years prior to any of the current crop of religions popping up. I think that, combined with how the religions that DO pop up are frequently so different from one another, is pretty compelling evidence for those religions being inventions of man.

The only honest theist is a deist IMO.

Look around and you'll find an awfully large number of lapsed Catholics or people who converted to some other denomination. I fall in the first group because the more I learned about their history, the less I could see belonging to that group.

 

[Adam]

Well said, Matthew.

If you recall 2,000 years ago God created light (the sun), yet science has proven how stars are formed and that our "light" is not the one and only in our solar system.

I think that story goes back further than 2000 years, but either way, I don't think that there is a conflict. There is a conflict if someone takes the Bible literally and also subscribes to the view that the Earth is only about 6000 years old. I, however, don't follow either philosophy. A story or theory that explains the origins around us is prevalent throughout the world's cultures. The Big Bang theory is one such theory, and I think that the Big Bang theory is consistent with the concept that there was no light before the explosion. I'm actually intrigued by the (I think more recent) theory of supermembranes, but that's another story. I view the book of Genesis to simply imply that some force put things into motion to create what is around us.

I sure didn't know God accepted Visa or Mastercard...

Cash only, babeee.

 

[Adam]

Wisconsin grows a lot of potatoes, too and all we hear is "Idaho this, Idaho that". Frankly, we, who live in Wisconsin, are pretty tired of it. Either we get some recognition, or we'll stop shipping our spuds, which happen to be the preferred ammo for the vaunted spud gun.

Your science is faulty.

Arggg! Your quote made me realize that I had mistyped. I meant to say that I had no evidence that the potatoes came from Idaho.

Man, that really changed what I meant to convey. Oh, well.

BTW, sorry for the great spud problems of the midlands. Are there particular types that are grown in Wisconsin?

 

[Adam]

I've experienced and experience the presence of God on a daily basis so to me his existence is as sure as the Sun, Neptune or black holes. I understand many folks haven't experienced that so I wouldn't expect you to share my belief.

This is an excellent point. While I have experienced some moments in my life that I attribute to that, that's not what I'd like to mention. I have a story that many of you will consider bizarre. I was quite shocked, but I happen to know the person and therefore have a different perspective.

There's someone that I've known for over 30 years. This person is really into science and probably played no small role in my fascination of it. He is also incredibly good with people. Incredibly good. He has always been religious as far as I know, but I never knew why. During a random conversation a few months ago, it came up that he didn't trust someone because "I don't trust anyone without a light around them. I just walk away." Huh? WHAT?! To give perspective, that sort of topic has never once come up. Never once in over 30 years. When I asked about it, he said that he could see light (like a halo) around most people, but some people didn't have it (and he apparently had bad experiences with people without the light in the past). He never mentioned it before that because he thought that everyone saw the same thing.

You all don't know me personally, and you don't know this person at all. I can only say that I trust him absolutely. I have no evidence that he has ever lied to me. He was fully sober and was not even remotely joking.

Just one of my experiences of something unexplained. Does it prove the existence of God? No. However, I know of nothing described in scientific theory that explains it.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Matter and energy are interchangeable. Matter takes up space. Energy does not.

But energy is a state, no mass, matter has mass, so all that energy would not require space, matter would, except in a singularity?

 

[Adam]

But energy is a state, no mass, matter has mass, so all that energy would not require space, matter would, except in a singularity?

Correct, I think.

The whole singularity concept is tough for me to wrap my brain around, but maybe I just need to read more about it.

 

[mtrycrafts]

....
I've experienced and experience the presence of God on a daily basis so to me his existence is as sure as the Sun, Neptune or black holes. ....

But, isn't this experience similar, or can be equated to audio where people report certain perceptions that are just not there and cannot be there?

But, I have not exeprience black holes, nor seen one but it is still there universally for all.

 

[mtrycrafts]

This is an excellent point. While I have experienced some moments in my life that I attribute to that, that's not what I'd like to mention. I have a story that many of you will consider bizarre. I was quite shocked, but I happen to know the person and therefore have a different perspective.

There's someone that I've known for over 30 years. This person is really into science and probably played no small role in my fascination of it. He is also incredibly good with people. Incredibly good. He has always been religious as far as I know, but I never knew why. During a random conversation a few months ago, it came up that he didn't trust someone because "I don't trust anyone without a light around them. I just walk away." Huh? WHAT?! To give perspective, that sort of topic has never once come up. Never once in over 30 years. When I asked about it, he said that he could see light (like a halo) around most people, but some people didn't have it (and he apparently had bad experiences with people without the light in the past). He never mentioned it before that because he thought that everyone saw the same thing.

You all don't know me personally, and you don't know this person at all. I can only say that I trust him absolutely. I have no evidence that he has ever lied to me. He was fully sober and was not even remotely joking.

Just one of my experiences of something unexplained. Does it prove the existence of God? No. However, I know of nothing described in scientific theory that explains it.

Interesting indeed. It has nothing to do with lying, just like in audio; people perceive things not there. To them it is.
The question comes to me is how to test him? Probably not possible; actually, most likely impossible. Unless, that halo would show through a cloth that would hide the person visually to all but the halo would be visible or not to him. Then, we could test him. Perhaps have no one behind that curtain. But, it would take some thinking.
Or, he may have something unique and make the Journals and new research grants

 

[Adam]

Interesting indeed. It has nothing to do with lying, just like in audio; people perceive things not there. To them it is.
The question comes to me is how to test him? Probably not possible; actually, most likely impossible. Unless, that halo would show through a cloth that would hide the person visually to all but the halo would be visible or not to him. Then, we could test him. Perhaps have no one behind that curtain. But, it would take some thinking.
Or, he may have something unique and make the Journals and new research grants

My perspective is different than yours because of my experience with this person - I don't assume that it's not there. I recall seeing a show about someone (forget the name, but apparently well known at the time) who could see auras around people. This sounds the same to me.

You can of course believe what you want. While I believe a scientist who I've never met that something that I (and no one) has ever seen actually exists, I believe this person even more. He didn't tell me it to be cool or to get attention.

 

[lsiberian]

How did he know it was Jesus if he didn't know who Jesus was?

Do you think that it never happens that Christians convert to another religion due to a dream/visitation/spiritual experience/etc? That it's only a one way (the RIGHT way!) street?

It's very obvious that the primary determinant of which religion you're a member of is where you're born and how you're raised (probably the primary determinant for yourself as well). That seems like a pretty cruel game to play, denying people the gift of eternal life for being born in the "wrong" place.

What about the millions of people that existed for the thousands of years before Christianity existed? Just SOL too?

Mankind existed for thousands of years prior to any of the current crop of religions popping up. I think that, combined with how the religions that DO pop up are frequently so different from one another, is pretty compelling evidence for those religions being inventions of man.

The only honest theist is a deist IMO.

He showed up at our campus ministry having had this dream. I think it was pretty obvious he figured it out himself. This experience has occurred in many cultures that don't have a Christian Missionary.

I've found nominal-ism is very common in many areas of the world. However it does stand to reason it's easier to be a Christian in America than in other places. However statistics indicate that the church grows much faster in places other than the US.

Paul addresses the millions in Romans very well. I could not do as much justice to explanation as the 1st page of Romans(which has been misused and abused at times.)

Essentially belief is what saves a person. In my view having the right name isn't as important as having the right being. I think this is a reasonable view. However I will distinguish it from other religious systems.

It isn't popular to be an exclusive faith in an inclusive world, but if a person comes to this belief they would be dishonest to deny it's exclusiveness this. I can't lie about the truths even if they are hard to accept.

As I've said I don't have all the answers. But if your view is that man has been corrupted by his choice to sin then you can see what Christ did as a merciful act rather than viewing the lostness of others as a cruel one. It's all about perspective. On this one. The Christian view is that no one deserves eternal life. It's a gift so it's merciful that anyone gets a chance at it.

Of course I can't answer all the questions about those that may or may not here. I can only respond as Jesus did saying don't miss your chance to embrace him.

I know some may equate this with the cable controversy, but I think it's a bit of a stretch. The cable controversy can be disproved. Whereas God really can't be disproved. I think it's intentional that he can't be proven either. What choice would we have if he were provable? You can try to deny the Sun but it's still going to be there. God hid himself to give us the choice. That is my view on the matter. Certainly there are people smarter than I on both sides.

 

[mtrycrafts]

.... However, my point is that for those on here that claim that something cannot exist because they have no proof it, how many other things do they simply accept on faith? ....

No, it is not that a single person, perhaps me, have no proof of it, no one has evidence, credible evidence, you know, the kind we talk about in the other forums
Some may think they do, but that is not real evidence. It is just not testable nor falsifiable.

....
Somebody writing something down in a book clearly isn't evidence enough, so why believe all the "science" that you learned from a book in school as absolute fact?

Are you equating the Bible to a science book? What I mean is that nothing or very little in the Bible is supported by facts. Science books are supported by facts or it gets erased and new book published. And, certainly what is in it can be tested by anyone able to test it. Is anything deleted from the next publication of a Bible?

 

[mtrycrafts]

... On the other hand, I used to pray as a small child and nothing ever came of that so there is nothing to extrapolate from that experience.

Sure there is No use praying, nothing happens

 

[Adam]

What I mean is that nothing or very little in the Bible is supported by facts.

Some of it is supported by historical evidence. Other parts of it are recognized as politically motivated letters by religious scholars. Other parts are symbolic. I'm guessing (but not assuming) that you take the Bible as being literal, or else you wouldn't be discussing the factual support of it.

I have no desire to argue over the validity of the Bible. I haven't read it, nor do I expect that I ever will. It works for some people, while it holds no value to others.

You did get me on comparing the Bible to a science book...I'm not sure if I actually addressed that here.

 

[mtrycrafts]

My perspective is different than yours because of my experience with this person - I don't assume that it's not there. I recall seeing a show about someone (forget the name, but apparently well known at the time) who could see auras around people. This sounds the same to me.

You can of course believe what you want. While I believe a scientist who I've never met that something that I (and no one) has ever seen actually exists, I believe this person even more. He didn't tell me it to be cool or to get attention.

In your shoes I would certainly favor your friend's account over a TV shows performer. Yes, I have heard of such performers. How is that different from psychics? Or, people like John Edwards who claims to hear the dead? Or, that Russian girl who claimed X-ray vision? Oh, she failed the testing as did John Edwards.

 

[Alex2507]

Sure there is No use praying, nothing happens

I don't know about that. Didn't they have a bunch of positive thinking brainiacs converge on Washington DC to bring the crime rate down by thirty percent and the crime rate went down 30 percent? Or like I really wanted sound panels and Greg gave me sound panels and I really wanted another turntable and Walter gave me a turntable or I really wanted some WmAx speakers and Mattt gave them to me?






















Just kidding about Matt giving me the speakers ... but he might if I pray real hard.

 

[Adam]

I have a question for everyone that I find interesting and difficult to answer: How do you define good and evil?

The more that I think about it, the more difficult it is for me to answer. There is the concept that good and evil is subjective and that neither actually exists. What is good to some is evil to others, and vice versa. I've argued that side of things a few times. For a while, I was tending towards "good" being equated to having a respect for life and "evil" having no respect for life. That seemed to fit the general pattern of what I'd studied. My dilemma with that concept is in addressing having respect for life while consciously causing the end of it on a continuous basis. I try to show respect for life, but I know of no way to survive without causing the loss of other life in order for me and my loved ones to continue living. Perhaps I am evil, but the only organism that I know of that can survive without causing another life to end are bacteria.

Just curious what you all think on the subject.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Some of it is supported by historical evidence. Other parts of it are recognized as politically motivated letters by religious scholars. Other parts are symbolic. I'm guessing (but not assuming) that you take the Bible as being literal, or else you wouldn't be discussing the factual support of it.

I have no desire to argue over the validity of the Bible. I haven't read it, nor do I expect that I ever will. It works for some people, while it holds no value to others.

You did get me on comparing the Bible to a science book...I'm not sure if I actually addressed that here.

Well, it does claim to be the 'word of God,' no? If so, then it needs to be taken at its words. Clearly much of it are just stories, little historical support.
For instance, no evidence of that mass baby killing in there, zero, to kill off Jesus soon after birth. And on it goes. The 3 wise men? No evidence. The birth location? no evidence.

 

[Adam]

...Walter gave me a turntable...

Really? Good for you! I missed that. A couple of months ago, I seriously considered sending you a Technics SL-1200 from Amazon. Ultimately, I thought that it might be a bit too weird. I'm glad that you got one in the end. You're really enjoying LPs, and that's fantastic.

 

[Adam]

Well, it does claim to be the 'word of God,' no?

I can't say, as I've never read it. I know that people claim that, but I didn't think that it was stated in the text itself.

 

[mtrycrafts]

....
I know some may equate this with the cable controversy, but I think it's a bit of a stretch. The cable controversy can be disproved. Whereas God really can't be disproved. I think it's intentional that he can't be proven either. What choice would we have if he were provable? You can try to deny the Sun but it's still going to be there. God hid himself to give us the choice. That is my view on the matter. Certainly there are people smarter than I on both sides.

Yes, it is interesting comparison One is falsifiable the other is not. Cannot prove a negative. And, since you say he hid his proof, it is convenient, isn't it? That is why science cannot solve that issue.