DO NOT BUY anything from AV123

[fanuminski]

File a complaint with the States Attorney General.

I second this - I really believe you need to tell MLS that if you
don't have your money by such and such date, you will be
filing a complaint with the State attorney General's office.
Be prepared to follow through though.

-M

 

[Chu Gai]

I think the trouble I'd personally run into(not necessarily all others) is that my purchase was not from AV123 but from Schifter himself and payment made to his Graham Company. AV123 was technically not involved even though it was done entirely on the av123 forums and from the ceo. I'll give it a shot but other than a paypal account(which may not still be active) I don't know of any business information I can use. I'll update if anything fruitful comes from this.

Many people thought they were buying from AV123 when in fact they were buying from Graham Company or MLS. This generally was not disclosed. Graham Company to my way of understanding was a way to circumvent any payments to AV123 hence it's doubtful any of the officers received appropriate compensation. Definitely get in touch through those links.

Many people are worried about AV123 failing. I'm not one of those. If the worse happens like criminal charges, liquidation of assets, filing of bankruptcy, someone will buy the rights to the AV123 name, clean house, and restart the business again but this time, run it right.

 

[mziegler]

It seems to me that the only thing he feel bad about is getting caught. There is no possible defense for the raffles.

 

[cmryan821]

I second this - I really believe you need to tell MLS that if you
don't have your money by such and such date, you will be
filing a complaint with the State attorney General's office.
Be prepared to follow through though.

-M

I'm past the point of willing to wait for him to set another date(he's been doing that for months now). If I'm able to redress this issue in a method other than him doing the right thing then so be it. After all, considering his behavior with charities, I'm not sure why I should expect him to treat me, a regular customer, any better.

Many people thought they were buying from AV123 when in fact they were buying from Graham Company or MLS. This generally was not disclosed. Graham Company to my way of understanding was a way to circumvent any payments to AV123 hence it's doubtful any of the officers received appropriate compensation. Definitely get in touch through those links.

Many people are worried about AV123 failing. I'm not one of those. If the worse happens like criminal charges, liquidation of assets, filing of bankruptcy, someone will buy the rights to the AV123 name, clean house, and restart the business again but this time, run it right.

In my ignorance I thought I what I was doing was just as good as buying from AV123 because I was buying from the ceo. At the time I didn't think anything strange about The Graham Company.

I have to agree with you regarding AV123's success/failure. It generally is sad when a business has to close its doors but only if it's a reputable business with reputable people.

 

[fanuminski]

I'm past the point of willing to wait for him to set another date(he's been doing that for months now). If I'm able to redress this issue in a method other than him doing the right thing then so be it. After all, considering his behavior with charities, I'm not sure why I should expect him to treat me, a regular customer, any better.

I meant that YOU should set the date - ie; this Friday (or else...).
I sometimes think ultimatums are the only way.
I don't think that I could have had your patience.

-M

 

[cmryan821]

I meant that YOU should set the date - ie; this Friday (or else...).
I sometimes think ultimatums are the only way.
I don't think that I could have had your patience.

-M

My mistake. Also, as I just reread my reply to you I noticed how it kinda sounded like I was getting a little testy. My apologies if you took it that way.

 

[JazzySmooth]

Well at least they got an A rating with the BBB now

http://www.bbb.org/denver/business-reviews/home-theater/av123-in-longmont-co-90099820

 

[TjMV3]

It seems to me that the only thing he feel bad about is getting caught. There is no possible defense for the raffles.

Correct.

He doesn't feel bad at all. He feels bad he got caught and that he (and AV123) are now stuck with this slimey, criminal, well-deserved reputation.

How could he possibly feel bad, when in fact, he's operating in the same manner as he has always done. He's gone ahead and is taking the exact same crooked and slimey approach to doing business, as he always has. The very same slimey, crooked approach that created this criminal environment.

Yeah, he feels bad My @ss he feels bad!

Oh that's right, he just wants and needs more time to focus his energy and time on selling more gear; so he can pay back all those he robbed ......defrauded. Yeah, give him more time. because what he's doing is setting the bait to hook himself a few more suckers on gear not even manufactored (still in the "Design" stages) and on pre-order payments.

If he hooks himself enough suckers, just watch what he does.

Hint: It won't be the act of paying back all who he has defrauded.

I wonder if he'll go with the "Fake Your Own Death" ploy or the " Vanish Into Thin Air (abducted by angry aliens from another galaxy, who are still waiting on their groovey, human designed loudspeakers) " ploy?

Maybe it will be the "Lost At Sea (tossed overboard) " ploy.

 

[Chu Gai]

Gary Dodd feels around for his wallet as Mark Schifter regales all with stories of his new factory at Chernobyl and how the workers are positively glowing during the 2008 RMAF.

The police often question him just to see if they'll hear a new excuse. His career advise, "Find out what you don't do well in life and then teach others how to do likewise." His stories are so slippery, Mobil 1 looks to incorporate it into a new synthetic - Shifty oil. I don't always serve Kool-Aid, but when I do, I prefer the purple kind. STAY THIRSTY, my friends.

 

[Soundman]

An affected party with respect to alleged wrongdoings brought something rather interesting to my attention that I'd like to share with everyone.

Apart from the questions concerning the raffles such as did the recipients receive all or parts of the monies (certainly serious issues with their own ramifications), there is another compelling problem for AV123. Were they legally able to even hold the raffles?

Laws concerning such things as raffles vary from state to state with respect to specifics, but common themes are apparent. Raffles are considered a form of gambling and as such are subject to regulation. In Colorado, as elsewhere, raffles are lumped together with bingo. These are run by not-for-profit organizations that have to have been in business for at least 5 years, have applicable internal procedures, a charter if you will, and must apply for a license from the state. AV123 and its officers (MLS, Lynn, Suzanne) are a for-profit organization. As such they are prohibited under Colorardo law from directly running raffles.

Is there any way they could have legally run a raffle?
Yes. They could have contracted with an organization that is legally allowed to run raffles. That might've been something like a church, volunteer fire department, Kiwanis Club, Masons, etc. The terms of the raffle would have to be specifically spelled out: Prize which must be donated, # of tickets to be sold and their cost, the agency or organization benefitting from proceeds, the duration of the raffle, contingency if the amount of tickets is not sold, etc. Accurate records would need to be kept, the drawing must be fair, and prizes and amounts to be donated must occur within a very short amount of time. If that cannot be done, applicable State agencies must be notified.

But what about places like McDonalds that have those Millionare type games? They're for profit companies!
Since you can get a free game piece writing, emailing, or calling as well as by buying product those don't fall under bingo/raffles but rather sweepstakes. They are governed by applicable State laws. What AV123 ran was not sweepstakes.

So, what is AV123 facing?
I'm not a lawyer nor have I slept with one. I think had AV123 run the raffles, given the money promptly, kept great records, and all the things everyone hoped had happened, maybe nothing would have happened. Maybe a fine/misdemeanor that would've been completely understandable and forgiven by most anyone. However, enormous improprieties have been committed by AV123. Likely they are not punishable by simply one charge that can be brought against them. From my readings I find that...

• They ran an illegal raffle.
• They did not contract with a legal organization that could do so.
• Prizes were not awarded promptly either to recipients or to organizations.
• Record keeping was poor. As an example, Randy Bessinger noticed in one of the raffles that even though he'd donated, his name only appeared after he'd commented publically.
• If records were altered, that is considered destruction of records and has its own punishments as it hinders or prevents investigations and prosecutions. Hence, if someone has information that records were altered, woe the person and also the company that did it.
• Each ticket sold can be a separate charge and a separate penalty.
• Aggregate amounts carry their own charge and penalties. As the total amounts rise, the class of crime moves from misdemeanor to different levels of felony.
• The multiple raffles that were run were all in violation. Hence AV123 and its officers may be considered repeat offenders. Penalties rise proportionately as do the level of felony.
• If deductions for product were taken, that was illegal and apart from laws that were violated with respect to illegal raffles, state and federal income tax laws were also circumvented.
• If the raffles were run and Mark bought the speaker or whatever prize from AV123 or vice versa afterwards, that means a raffle was held and the prize never existed. This is highly illegal.
• Since the internet/computers were used, there are sundry computer crimes that can be rightfully considered.
• Sarbane-Oxley laws may've been broken.

If Mark makes good, he may earn a couple of brownie points, but they will not exonerate him from having mutliple charges brought against him.

http://www.gambling-law-us.com can provide additional information including links to applicable Colorado regulations.

This is good inf.

 

[david-me]

An affected party with respect to alleged wrongdoings brought something rather interesting to my attention that I'd like to share with everyone.

Apart from the questions concerning the raffles such as did the recipients receive all or parts of the monies (certainly serious issues with their own ramifications), there is another compelling problem for AV123. Were they legally able to even hold the raffles?

Laws concerning such things as raffles vary from state to state with respect to specifics, but common themes are apparent. Raffles are considered a form of gambling and as such are subject to regulation. In Colorado, as elsewhere, raffles are lumped together with bingo. These are run by not-for-profit organizations that have to have been in business for at least 5 years, have applicable internal procedures, a charter if you will, and must apply for a license from the state. AV123 and its officers (MLS, Lynn, Suzanne) are a for-profit organization. As such they are prohibited under Colorardo law from directly running raffles.

Is there any way they could have legally run a raffle?
Yes. They could have contracted with an organization that is legally allowed to run raffles. That might've been something like a church, volunteer fire department, Kiwanis Club, Masons, etc. The terms of the raffle would have to be specifically spelled out: Prize which must be donated, # of tickets to be sold and their cost, the agency or organization benefitting from proceeds, the duration of the raffle, contingency if the amount of tickets is not sold, etc. Accurate records would need to be kept, the drawing must be fair, and prizes and amounts to be donated must occur within a very short amount of time. If that cannot be done, applicable State agencies must be notified.

But what about places like McDonalds that have those Millionare type games? They're for profit companies!
Since you can get a free game piece writing, emailing, or calling as well as by buying product those don't fall under bingo/raffles but rather sweepstakes. They are governed by applicable State laws. What AV123 ran was not sweepstakes.

So, what is AV123 facing?
I'm not a lawyer nor have I slept with one. I think had AV123 run the raffles, given the money promptly, kept great records, and all the things everyone hoped had happened, maybe nothing would have happened. Maybe a fine/misdemeanor that would've been completely understandable and forgiven by most anyone. However, enormous improprieties have been committed by AV123. Likely they are not punishable by simply one charge that can be brought against them. From my readings I find that...

• They ran an illegal raffle.
• They did not contract with a legal organization that could do so.
• Prizes were not awarded promptly either to recipients or to organizations.
• Record keeping was poor. As an example, Randy Bessinger noticed in one of the raffles that even though he'd donated, his name only appeared after he'd commented publically.
• If records were altered, that is considered destruction of records and has its own punishments as it hinders or prevents investigations and prosecutions. Hence, if someone has information that records were altered, woe the person and also the company that did it.
• Each ticket sold can be a separate charge and a separate penalty.
• Aggregate amounts carry their own charge and penalties. As the total amounts rise, the class of crime moves from misdemeanor to different levels of felony.
• The multiple raffles that were run were all in violation. Hence AV123 and its officers may be considered repeat offenders. Penalties rise proportionately as do the level of felony.
• If deductions for product were taken, that was illegal and apart from laws that were violated with respect to illegal raffles, state and federal income tax laws were also circumvented.
• If the raffles were run and Mark bought the speaker or whatever prize from AV123 or vice versa afterwards, that means a raffle was held and the prize never existed. This is highly illegal.
• Since the internet/computers were used, there are sundry computer crimes that can be rightfully considered.
• Sarbane-Oxley laws may've been broken.

If Mark makes good, he may earn a couple of brownie points, but they will not exonerate him from having mutliple charges brought against him.

http://www.gambling-law-us.com can provide additional information including links to applicable Colorado regulations.

How then does this apply to other Internet-Direct speaker companies Such as Ascend Acoustics and the raffle they are currently running ? Are they allowed to run a raffle ?

 

[cschang]

How then does this apply to other Internet-Direct speaker companies Such as Ascend Acoustics and the raffle they are currently running ? Are they allowed to run a raffle ?

Probably not, but California laws are different. In the end, you can call the intended charity and find out of the monies have been donated, and they have. Recently, an actual charity has been setup at Sloan/Kettering...The Michael Fabrikant Fund for Oral Cancer Research.

So as you can see, while it may not be legal, the circumstances are certainly different.

 

[Chu Gai]

How then does this apply to other Internet-Direct speaker companies Such as Ascend Acoustics and the raffle they are currently running ? Are they allowed to run a raffle ?

Good question. Probably not unless they meet the applicable regulations there. That'd be true for TCA and just about any place you can think of. IIRC, there's something special about Utah & Hawaii. It is probably worth considering that first offenders in just about anything, and that would include MLS/AV123 can plea down to lesser charges. However, what makes the MLS/AV123 situation presumably different from the others are factors like

• sloppy record keeping
• late and non-existent payments
• money that ought to then be reported as earned income
• the large number of raffles run by the organization which are subject to the above.

I'd be somewhat concerned if I were Ascend or TCA. I'd frankly be terrified if I were MLS/AV123. In all cases I would suggest that they stop it unless they enlist the aid of an applicable organization to do it on their behalf.

 

[david-me]

Probably not, but California laws are different. In the end, you can call the intended charity and find out of the monies have been donated, and they have. Recently, an actual charity has been setup at Sloan/Kettering...The Michael Fabrikant Fund for Oral Cancer Research.

So as you can see, while it may not be legal, the circumstances are certainly different.

Thanks.
This could have some severe repercussions for so many good, honest and deserving raffle recipients, such as Dave Fabricant and his deserving charity.

I do wish Mark would come out and admit his wrong doings and provide, say, bi-weekly proof/updates concering the resolution of these things.

I do respect him less and less each time he responds to these allegations and never takes accountablity for his past actions. He never admits to what was done, and he never provides the "trasparency" he claims as one of his biggest assets.

I hope he turns things around soon, as AV123 has some very solid products.
I own the X-statik package
My mom owns the Rocket package
and my father owns the RS1000's

 

[Jed M]

How then does this apply to other Internet-Direct speaker companies Such as Ascend Acoustics and the raffle they are currently running ? Are they allowed to run a raffle ?

Laws vary state by state, but one law that is universally applied is that it is illegal to defraud people using the guise of a raffle. That is the most important part of the equation, lets not forget that. Nobody would have a problem with AV123's raffles if Mark had not kept over AT LEAST $40,000 of the proceeds.

 

[Jed M]

I own the X-statik package
My mom owns the Rocket package
and my father owns the RS1000's

Sounds similar to my family just throw in a couple siblings too.

 

[musicmaniac]

Gary Dodd feels around for his wallet as Mark Schifter regales all with stories of his new factory at Chernobyl and how the workers are positively glowing during the 2008 RMAF.

***Aparently I don't have enough posts to have the pic above included***

The police often question him just to see if they'll hear a new excuse. His career advise, "Find out what you don't do well in life and then teach others how to do likewise." His stories are so slippery, Mobil 1 looks to incorporate it into a new synthetic - Shifty oil. I don't always serve Kool-Aid, but when I do, I prefer the purple kind. STAY THIRSTY, my friends.

I'm usually on board with most of your informative posts but this hits below the belt. It's one thing to keep people informed with your investigative skills but another when you pull this personal attack $hit.

 

[BWG707]

I keep reading posts saying leave MLS alone, stop bashing, and let him get his company on it's feet. One very, very simple way to get a whole lot of people off his back immediately would be to square up with all the raffles. That would stop a huge flow of negative posts immediately. The thing is, he has had alot of time to do this and nothing has happened, instead I hear about money used to finish a show room and to fund new R&D products. MLS you are digging your own grave.

 

[Chu Gai]

Thanks.
This could have some severe repercussions for so many good, honest and deserving raffle recipients, such as Dave Fabricant and his deserving charity.

I do wish Mark would come out and admit his wrong doings and provide, say, bi-weekly proof/updates concering the resolution of these things.

I do respect him less and less each time he responds to these allegations and never takes accountablity for his past actions. He never admits to what was done, and he never provides the "trasparency" he claims as one of his biggest assets.

I hope he turns things around soon, as AV123 has some very solid products.
I own the X-statik package
My mom owns the Rocket package
and my father owns the RS1000's

That'd be nice David, but from a personal consideration, is it wise at this point? We all know that as time has gone on from the first time underfunding was reported two things have happened. The cries of outrage have grown stronger while the support has grown ever weaker. If Mark provides the kind of transparency all would like to see, his written word becomes a confession that can be used against him. This was a matter that needed to be nipped in the bud quickly. It had to be done when the support was strongest and the questioning just beginning. Everyone would have been satisfied if Fabrikant, Derek, and Hugh had written that they'd received all the funds. They might never want to have anything to do with him after that, but the outrage would start to peter out and largely be satisfied with a public apology to everyone.

The thing is, those instances have also called into question all the other raffles listed on page 73 of this thread. Did the Red Cross receive funds? Other organizations and people, what about them? The Russian orphanage? David, I know you're satisfied with the sundry products you've purchased. You'd like to see AV123 survive. IMO, it can't with MLS, his wife, and his step-daughter as part of the organization. You're probably somewhat horrified by the raffles and maybe somewhat encouraged by the amps.

I'm not even talking about UFW/ULW issues. I'm not talking about LS-9's that people haven't received. I'm not talking about the many refunds owed. While these issues (raffles & amps) have dominated the postings, there are other issues at play that run through the business. Issues like individuals that've made fairly substantial investments in the operation based on products and areas that were never going to happen. There's a fellow who talked his mother into investing into the business and they're allegedly out around $250,000. Uncle Paul is out in the high 5 figures it's said. You've got employees that haven't been paid. No, not Sean. Others. There are paper trails, bounced checks, emails, etc. that if you were able to see would indicate additional problems. Take a look at the history of AV123 and ask yourself why some of the associations no longer exist? Sure you can blame the economy. You can blame a short duration currency valuation problem with Colombia. I'll tell you that a lot of money was sucked out of the company and it went to things and persons it ought not to have.

David this is a poorly run company. It always has been. Issues of non-payments go back to the beginning of this decade. It's a company based on the most tallest of tale-telling. There never were any factories that he owned. Or part owned. Never. No houses. No cars unless someone else provided them.

 

[fredk]

Chu. You have posted a lot of good info here, but that last one was way over the top. Edit: the post with the picture.

As much as people post their opinions here, it is pretty much impossible to tell if MLS is sincere or not. The problem is that those who knowingly scam are very familiar with what they should sound like to be perceived as sincere.

The only people who know for sure if MLS is sincere etc. are the very few insiders who know the whole story.

Stick to the facts and report what has and has not been done. If MLS has not dealt with something, it should be posted here. If he HAS done something, it should be posted here. This will provide an ever clearer picture of what is and is not going on moving forward.