DO NOT BUY anything from AV123

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jongaro

Junior Audioholic
He has made cryptic Jason Giambi type apologies about messing up and letting people down. I do think he feels bad about what he has caused, but I am sure a lot of people who break the law do too. Doesn't come close to excusing it, but a real apology detailing what charities he took from and an apology for the way his friends and customers are currently and have been treated since things have gone south, instead of just focusing on the problems leading up to the forum closing, would go a long way with me. I don't know about anymore, but it would have. Now it would come off as too insincere and a last ditch effort to stay out of criminal trouble.
If we have learned anything from professional athletes is that honesty is the best policy. Being shifty when answering stuff doesn't help one's image.

Being honest and avoiding criminal charges don't necessarily go hand in hand.

This is starting to feel very surreal in a Bernard Madoff kind of way. :( I'm not sure I'd want all my personal assets sold off to pay back people I screwed over... but the law does its best to compensate.

What I don't think Mark realizes is that there is one of him and many of us. With the invention of the internet, we can connect and share our stories. In numbers, we are a force to be reckoned with.
 
C

cschang

Audioholic Chief
He has made cryptic Jason Giambi type apologies about messing up and letting people down. I do think he feels bad about what he has caused, but I am sure a lot of people who break the law do too. Doesn't come close to excusing it, but a real apology detailing what charities he took from and an apology for the way his friends and customers are currently and have been treated since things have gone south, instead of just focusing on the problems leading up to the forum closing, would go a long way with me. I don't know about anymore, but it would have. Now it would come off as too insincere and a last ditch effort to stay out of criminal trouble.
Jed, I think you give him too much credit. If Schifty was honest, a true apology would have happened...instead, he continues to do what he does.

The man is not honest, he relies on the kool aid drinkers to perpetuate his stories and lies, but as Chu has stated, do the fact finding, and you will find that is usually another lie. At this point, he is very predictable.

I didn't see it, but I am told he posted that he sent an apology letter to Sloan/Kettering. Is that true? S/K has not seen it. Why not send a letter of apology to Fabrikant?
 
D

david-me

Audioholic Intern
Does any of the local news agencies in Colorado have an investigative unit ?

I know most here in AZ do...
 
C

Chu Gai

Audioholic Samurai
JRandall's post was pretty funny!

I'm not a big internet or forum guy. I recently became aware that they existed, for just about everything you want to buy. Cars, lawnmowers, steam mops, musical instruments, mail order brides, and the like. I have a job, kids, and activities that keep me busy. I don't have time to shovel through 1000 posts from the same ten guys that say the same things. Where do you guys find the time?
Recently became aware?! Whoa, that's what I call a Schifterism.
 
J

jongaro

Junior Audioholic
this is the male version of a soap opera. sadly, it is real life and not pretend. so when you get screwed, you are screwed. :(
 
C

cmryan821

Junior Audioholic
I would have to agree with you. Now that I look back on it the guy is a total fraud which makes the company a fraud because he is the face of the company. There is no company that benefited from viral misinformation over the interent than them. The CEO has obviously blantatly lied to its customer base to generate hype for products (vaporware) and the company. It sort of reminds me of cooking the books for the shareholders. Now we see the outcome of it. Its a shame for all the victims that are owed product or money. I am less hopeful for the people that are owed refund as it is looking more bleak as more deadlines pass such as the person that is owed money still in this thread.
I've pretty much come to that realization as well. When Grant started this thread I thought Schifter was only reluctant to refund money to several people that wanted it back for product undelivered. I wasn't aware that he had "underfunded" raffles(charming choice of words). If that's his m.o. for dealing with charities I can't envision a scenario in which he would be willing to provide refunds to people for undelivered products.
 
I

imscottr

Audiophyte
Thanks for the info guys! It's a great starting point. Buddy has Axioms and they're too aggressive for my listening preference. I think the reason I liked the Rockets so much is that they're a little laid back?

Anyway - thanks again!!!
 
C

Chu Gai

Audioholic Samurai
More on AV123 Raffles - Unintended Consequences

An affected party with respect to alleged wrongdoings brought something rather interesting to my attention that I'd like to share with everyone.

Apart from the questions concerning the raffles such as did the recipients receive all or parts of the monies (certainly serious issues with their own ramifications), there is another compelling problem for AV123. Were they legally able to even hold the raffles?

Laws concerning such things as raffles vary from state to state with respect to specifics, but common themes are apparent. Raffles are considered a form of gambling and as such are subject to regulation. In Colorado, as elsewhere, raffles are lumped together with bingo. These are run by not-for-profit organizations that have to have been in business for at least 5 years, have applicable internal procedures, a charter if you will, and must apply for a license from the state. AV123 and its officers (MLS, Lynn, Suzanne) are a for-profit organization. As such they are prohibited under Colorardo law from directly running raffles.

Is there any way they could have legally run a raffle?
Yes. They could have contracted with an organization that is legally allowed to run raffles. That might've been something like a church, volunteer fire department, Kiwanis Club, Masons, etc. The terms of the raffle would have to be specifically spelled out: Prize which must be donated, # of tickets to be sold and their cost, the agency or organization benefitting from proceeds, the duration of the raffle, contingency if the amount of tickets is not sold, etc. Accurate records would need to be kept, the drawing must be fair, and prizes and amounts to be donated must occur within a very short amount of time. If that cannot be done, applicable State agencies must be notified.

But what about places like McDonalds that have those Millionare type games? They're for profit companies!
Since you can get a free game piece writing, emailing, or calling as well as by buying product those don't fall under bingo/raffles but rather sweepstakes. They are governed by applicable State laws. What AV123 ran was not sweepstakes.

So, what is AV123 facing?
I'm not a lawyer nor have I slept with one. I think had AV123 run the raffles, given the money promptly, kept great records, and all the things everyone hoped had happened, maybe nothing would have happened. Maybe a fine/misdemeanor that would've been completely understandable and forgiven by most anyone. However, enormous improprieties have been committed by AV123. Likely they are not punishable by simply one charge that can be brought against them. From my readings I find that...

  • They ran an illegal raffle.
  • They did not contract with a legal organization that could do so.
  • Prizes were not awarded promptly either to recipients or to organizations.
  • Record keeping was poor. As an example, Randy Bessinger noticed in one of the raffles that even though he'd donated, his name only appeared after he'd commented publically.
  • If records were altered, that is considered destruction of records and has its own punishments as it hinders or prevents investigations and prosecutions. Hence, if someone has information that records were altered, woe the person and also the company that did it.
  • Each ticket sold can be a separate charge and a separate penalty.
  • Aggregate amounts carry their own charge and penalties. As the total amounts rise, the class of crime moves from misdemeanor to different levels of felony.
  • The multiple raffles that were run were all in violation. Hence AV123 and its officers may be considered repeat offenders. Penalties rise proportionately as do the level of felony.
  • If deductions for product were taken, that was illegal and apart from laws that were violated with respect to illegal raffles, state and federal income tax laws were also circumvented.
  • If the raffles were run and Mark bought the speaker or whatever prize from AV123 or vice versa afterwards, that means a raffle was held and the prize never existed. This is highly illegal.
  • Since the internet/computers were used, there are sundry computer crimes that can be rightfully considered.
  • Sarbane-Oxley laws may've been broken.
If Mark makes good, he may earn a couple of brownie points, but they will not exonerate him from having mutliple charges brought against him.

http://www.gambling-law-us.com can provide additional information including links to applicable Colorado regulations.
 
J

JRandall

Audiophyte
JRandall's post was pretty funny!

Recently became aware?! Whoa, that's what I call a Schifterism.
Glad I was able to make you smile. :) Why is it so hard for you to believe that I just discovered this world of internet forums? You are what I call an industry insider. Your knowledge of speakers and manufacturing are incredible. I love this stuff, and I love music. I wish I had your insight on what to buy.

Have a fun day, I'm going to work.
 
F

fanuminski

Enthusiast
Hello,

My name is Grant and I would like to do all that is within my power to discourage you from buying from AV123.

Let me preface this by saying that I do own quite a bit of AV123 gear. However, I would like to discourage you all from owning it yourselves and the following is why.


A sale was made by Mark Scifter on 09-08-08 for a pair of Reference 3's and a Reference 100. This sale was for a friend of Mark's (though the money went directly to Mark Schifter)


(As an aside from anyone from AV123 who might remove this thread I already have a screen shot of it so please do not waste your time)

In that thread the items were guaranteed to be shipped WITHIN TWO WEEKS.

To this day nothing has been shipped.

To this day Mark Schifter is now impossible to get in touch with. Neither Ryan (the friend who purchased the speakers that I recommended to AV123), nor I after I was involved, have heard from Mark for months.


I spoke to Jess in sales as well as Kyle in customer support and they both asked for a week to deal with the problem (Kyle has actually asked for multiple weeks).

They both said they could also not get in touch with Mark Schifter and that they were hoping Suzanne Johnson, who is apparently running the company in Mark's absence, so she could deal with this issue.

After many days of trying and leaving voicemails, which surprise surprise were not returned, I finally got through to Suzanne today and she told me several things:

1: She would not refund Ryan's money only Mark could do that
2: She said she could refund the money but she had "stock holders" to think about and so she couldn't do anything
3: She said Mark no longer has his cell phone and was not returning emails or calls
4: She said she would email Mark (good luck) and he might get back to me and he might not


She was informed, as was Kyle Mark and Jess, that Ryan was effectively robbed and that I would give them plenty of time to rectify it and if they chose not to then I would do my best to spread the word on their business practices before others are also screwed.


I hope I do not offend any moderators or anyone else by making this post. I would hope everyone would realize that I am simply TELLING THE TRUTH about a company that completely robbed a friend of mine.

I feel it is my duty to tell others the experience that we have gone through to insure that they do not go down the same path.

Furthermore, I think it speaks volumes about an internet only company that no longer allows anyone to post on their forums due to the heat that they have come under in the past year because of not meeting goals, not delivering products, or delivering defective products.

It speaks tremendous volumes when a company who exists, flourishes, or withers due to word of mouth via the internet when they would rather be ridiculed publicly rather than refund a customer that was stiffed by their PRESIDENT AND CEO.

I'm not trying to start a fight or a flame war. I'm just giving fair warning to others here before they are also robbed.

Sincerely,

JGC
I am being too lazy (and don't have the time!) to go back and check
every page, but has there been a resolution to this original purchase
that wasn't delivered?
-M
 
MinusTheBear

MinusTheBear

Audioholic Ninja
I am being too lazy (and don't have the time!) to go back and check
every page, but has there been a resolution to this original purchase
that wasn't delivered?
-M
Nope. His friend just posted recently. He is seeking a refund and has been given many dates that he would receive it but they all have passed.
 
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C

cmryan821

Junior Audioholic
I am being too lazy (and don't have the time!) to go back and check
every page, but has there been a resolution to this original purchase
that wasn't delivered?
-M
Nah. Only an endless string of "I'll have it to you by x" which keeps getting pushed back every time the date he sets comes up. Pretty sure he's just dragging me along and hoping that I(and all others who deserve refunds) give up and go away. I think he has assured me he would get me the refund by a certain date seven times(I might be forgetting one or two). As a side note, this weekend made a year that I originally paid him.
 
gonk

gonk

Full Audioholic
Just noticed that the original post was regarding a private sale that was concluded one year ago last week.
 
C

Chu Gai

Audioholic Samurai
Nah. Only an endless string of "I'll have it to you by x" which keeps getting pushed back every time the date he sets comes up. Pretty sure he's just dragging me along and hoping that I(and all others who deserve refunds) give up and go away. I think he has assured me he would get me the refund by a certain date seven times(I might be forgetting one or two). As a side note, this weekend made a year that I originally paid him.
According to laws and regulations peculiar to Colorado, AV123 is guilty of

6-1-105. Deceptive trade practices.

File a complaint with the States Attorney General.
 
C

cmryan821

Junior Audioholic
According to laws and regulations peculiar to Colorado, AV123 is guilty of

6-1-105. Deceptive trade practices.

File a complaint with the States Attorney General.
I think the trouble I'd personally run into(not necessarily all others) is that my purchase was not from AV123 but from Schifter himself and payment made to his Graham Company. AV123 was technically not involved even though it was done entirely on the av123 forums and from the ceo. I'll give it a shot but other than a paypal account(which may not still be active) I don't know of any business information I can use. I'll update if anything fruitful comes from this.
 
S

SnowmaNick

Junior Audioholic
Just noticed that the original post was regarding a private sale that was concluded one year ago last week.
Think MLS took the money and was hoping for a long-shot/big payout with Lehman stocks? :p
 
Jed M

Jed M

Full Audioholic
Jed, I think you give him too much credit. If Schifty was honest, a true apology would have happened...instead, he continues to do what he does.

The man is not honest, he relies on the kool aid drinkers to perpetuate his stories and lies, but as Chu has stated, do the fact finding, and you will find that is usually another lie. At this point, he is very predictable.

I didn't see it, but I am told he posted that he sent an apology letter to Sloan/Kettering. Is that true? S/K has not seen it. Why not send a letter of apology to Fabrikant?
I don't think I am giving him too much credit in saying I think he feels bad about this, but that doesn't mean anything really. I sincerely think he feels bad about it based on emails I have been having with him. I also think he is lying about everything and he is playing games with me, but I still think he feels bad.

I also find it interesting that he claims he sent letters of apologies to people but talking with some of those people they claim they didn't receive these letters. I wonder if he thinks none of us are talking to eachother via PM? He still maintains its just two raffles even privately. He doesn't mention Hugh's friend at all anymore. I just don't understand why the guy just can't be honest on stuff that has already been 100% verified. It just adds to the overall anger.
 
C

cmryan821

Junior Audioholic
I don't think I am giving him too much credit in saying I think he feels bad about this, but that doesn't mean anything really. I sincerely think he feels bad about it based on emails I have been having with him. I also think he is lying about everything and he is playing games with me, but I still think he feels bad.
I'm not sure I understand how he can feel bad and willingly be playing games with you. Guess I misunderstood something.

I also find it interesting that he claims he sent letters of apologies to people but talking with some of those people they claim they didn't receive these letters. I wonder if he thinks none of us are talking to eachother via PM? He still maintains its just two raffles even privately. He doesn't mention Hugh's friend at all anymore. I just don't understand why the guy just can't be honest on stuff that has already been 100% verified. It just adds to the overall anger.
Maybe he's schizophrenic.
 
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