DO NOT BUY anything from AV123

[Chu Gai]

AFAIK a lot of this has actually been taken care of. I haven't seen any major grumbling for the past 3 months.

Nope.

You miss the point entirely and your POV is pollyannaish. Crap happens. I am not giving AV123 any sort of pass here. They messed up in a major way. I believe from what I have both seen and heard that they are taking major steps to right their wrongs and get their house back in order.

Only major step so far is the shipment of new amps and those aren't even the same size as the old ones. Good job getting the house in order! If they were that confident the boards would be up there.

I still stand by my statement that peoples true stripes come out when faced with true adversity. You know what they are made of. I never enjoyed kicking people in the teeth while they are down. Especially when they are trying to get back up and turn it all around. Let me know if you can't read between the lines on this. I will spell it out for you.

Kicking them in the teeth? I'm holding a mirror up. What stripe came out with refunds that took months and years? What stripe came out when charity monies didn't get to their destination? Yellow?

About the FCC or other regulatory marks. I am sure Emotiva knows what they are doing. You could always call them if you are that concerned. The lack of FCC mark didn't stop Club Polk from ordering an ERC1 and doing a ship and demo amongst all the participants that threw in. Honestly, I am still not sure they are required to get that mark.

No they don't. They're looking to save a couple of grand here and a couple of grand there. They are required. Check the manual on say an Onkyo CDP. CDP's and DAC's are non-intentional radiators of EMI/RFI. This is not to say that Emotiva is the only outfit playing loose and hoping to not get caught.

 

[Chu Gai]

Underfunded is such a great word. It's like telling your wife when you went to Argentina on a business trip you underloved her.

 

[just listening]

OK, forget about the unethical prepay system they have there, when they know fully well that the items people are prepaying for are years away, not weeks or months like promised. Forget about the questionable quality of their products. Forget about their bad communication if you have a problem or need a refund.

First off, his sales ads he's been running are for products that have been in-stock previously. For you to claim that the items in those ads are years away is sheer exaggeration.

[/QUOTE]What about the admitted 2 charities he defrauded? He has admitted to stealing or "underfunding" tens of thousands of dollars acting as a middle man for charitable contributions. It has been said that his skimming of charity money could reach into the hundreds of thousands of dollars. I can't verify that myself, but the tens of thousands has been admitted by Mark himself, so I would tend to believe the trustworthy people who claim they have proof he cheated other charities also. Regardless, I would imagine that would get him into some deep legal trouble. As of today, AV123 has raised over 230k for charities. As of today, Mark has admitted to stealing from every charity he has been directly accused of stealing from (2 for 2, not including the owner of Ascend Acoustics accusing him of stealing from his father's charity also, but that wasn't a direct accusation). Makes you really wonder.[/QUOTE]

The charity issue is an MLS issue, not AV123, other than posting it on the forum. Having read thru much of the postings on that issue in the TweakCity forum, it is hugely damaging to MLS personally. As one poster put it, "lawyers are probably involved since very little info is getting out". I have yet to find an admission by MLS, but will keep searching.

 

[dylancash]

I have yet to find an admission by MLS, but will keep searching.

By all means let me help. 7th paragraph.

http://www.tweakcityaudio.com/forum/showpost.php?p=25318&postcount=60

 

[dylancash]

First off, his sales ads he's been running are for products that have been in-stock previously. For you to claim that the items in those ads are years away is sheer exaggeration.

I am not sure if you have the proper understanding of what has been going on there. I don't really care what he is running now. Ask the people who put money down on speakers and subwoofers over 4 years ago who have yet to receive them, let alone even started the design phase. Keep in mind these people were promised no longer than a 6 month wait on pretty much every product, but most were promised within a few weeks/months.

 

[just listening]

Dylan:
I'm speaking of his recent ads, not the LS6, LS9, and subwoofer debacle. The ones I have been emailed involve "The Gloves Are Off" ad involving x-series speakers, and previous ones with the ELT's. I hope that makes what I said fair.

Thanks for the link, but I didn't see an admission of the charity underpayment. I do see his confirmation that he lost a significant amount of money. I heard from others in the industry it was a "large 6 figure total". I don't think it is a stretch to say that all the pressures of the past 2 years contributed to his health issues. I will go back to the beginning of that thread and over the next few days read through it.

 

[Chu Gai]

The charity issue is an MLS issue, not AV123, other than posting it on the forum. Having read thru much of the postings on that issue in the TweakCity forum, it is hugely damaging to MLS personally. As one poster put it, "lawyers are probably involved since very little info is getting out". I have yet to find an admission by MLS, but will keep searching.

Well, no one has seen the legal papers as to just how AV123 is structured. There've been partners or investors throughout the years but with the possible exception of that guy Santiago in Colombia, they've all cashed out some time ago.

AV123 is a rather small outfit I think. Maybe just largely a family business with MLS as the head honcho. I don't think you can separate one from the other. I'm not even sure a reputable tax accountant could either what with sales being made by AV123, Graham Co., and MLS himself! MLS is AV123 for all intents and purposes. His step-daughter runs interference for him when people say they can't reach him.

While I see the rollout of the amps as a good thing, the sundry problems that plague the company existed beforehand. You know, the borrowing of Peter to pay Paul and all that good stuff. The amp situation by no stretch made it any easier to compensate people. So when I see MLS manning the phones, unloading stuff at the dock, I don't see this as a good thing. All the time he's spending doing that is time he's not spending running and overseeing the company.

 

[Chu Gai]

Dylan:
I'm speaking of his recent ads, not the LS6, LS9, and subwoofer debacle. The ones I have been emailed involve "The Gloves Are Off" ad involving x-series speakers, and previous ones with the ELT's. I hope that makes what I said fair.

Thanks for the link, but I didn't see an admission of the charity underpayment. I do see his confirmation that he lost a significant amount of money. I heard from others in the industry it was a "large 6 figure total". I don't think it is a stretch to say that all the pressures of the past 2 years contributed to his health issues. I will go back to the beginning of that thread and over the next few days read through it.

I want to see doctor's notes.

 

[mike c]

I want to see doctor's notes.

i'd show you some ... but i'm sick.

 

[fredk]

Well, no one has seen the legal papers as to just how AV123 is structured.

And nobody but MLS and a select few insiders know that structure or the full extent of its problems.

From my experiences in collapsing companies, once you reach a certain point, its straight down. MLS probably has some sort of access to cash or this would be done by now. The high tech companies I rode down survived because they had gone through high profile IPOs and could burn through tens of millions of cash per month while they re-organized.

Either way, what happened in the past is irrelevant at this point. What counts is what happens going forward. IF the company has the cash (wherever it comes from) to continue to meet current obligations while making good on its most pressing commitments, they will survive. If not, they won't.

 

[The Ninja]

I can't access that URL and I can't use the 'forgot password' function as the email would go to my old account that I no longer have access to

Thanks for the try though!

--url snipped by Sean as I don't have enough posts with this accounts to post urls--

that one?

 

[zvardanian]

I recall purchasing an x-sub a year ago or so...the black version had an ETA (from the drop down), the others were indicated as in stock. I paid 15 extra for Cherry so I would not have to wait.

It took almost 2 months to get the sub. I remember calling about 2 weeks into my order and asking about a tracking number. I was told that the item is a little backordered and that if I wanted the sale price, I had to order at that time and pay (which I had, unknowingly). This is contrary to their policy, or so I had read.

Regardless of who I discussed this with, be it AV123 product owners or the company, nobody seemed to think a whole lot of it. This shocked the hell out of me...I could not believe people accepted this type of behavior.

When I posted this query on their boards, with my own dissatisfaction, I was more or less shot down by the AV123 clan members. I heard a lot of, "give them a chance", and "be fair" type comments...something like this. It's like the owners were on some kind of high with their veneer fetishes. There is this bizarre loyalty...insane.

AND...About a week later, I get an email saying the subs were on hold because of an amp repair issue...which is fine, but don't tell me it's on backorder for fufillment when you're really trying to fix a faulty resistor. I'm pretty forgiving, just be honest with me.

After that, regardless of the sale or how "pretty" these speakers are, I will never buy from them again. The x-sub is nice, but it wasn't worth the hassle. Every time I'm tempted to purchase from them, I go look at my x-sub and remind myself of the gamble. Buying from AV123 feels like having a one-night stand without a rubber. I'll leave it at that.

 

[Chu Gai]

By AV123 standards, you didn't wait too long and only gave them free use of your monies for about 2 months. As I recall that sub had some issues with air leaks and the amp that prevented full output.

 

[alphaiii]

By AV123 standards, you didn't wait too long and only gave them free use of your monies for about 2 months. As I recall that sub had some issues with air leaks and the amp that prevented full output.

There were problems with later runs of x-subs - air leaks from the plate amp...bad capacitors on the amp that cause hum problems until they failed...dampening material falling down onto the driver and muffling output...low input sensitivity of the amp resulting in the need to crank up the receivers sub out gain in order for the auto on to work, or to get reasonable output... How all of these issues made it past QC is beyond me...

I ended up with a sub with the low input sensitivity and bad cap problem (which I bought before all the problems were well known). It developed a hum and would thump when going into standby. I will say though that av123 took care of me in what I deemed an acceptable manor. I had the sub for almost a year, and due to the lack of readily available replacement amps since the x-sub had been discontinued, they refunded me the full purchase price.

Keep in mind that I had a working sub for a year, although not without it's faults...but I didn't require the sub dying to get any resolution. I called about the hum/thump issue - it was a recognized problem, and after a couple weeks of no replacement amps being available, and them not knowing when replacement amps would show up, they offered a refund as an alternative.

So I got to use an x-sub for a year and lost out of the shipping cost to me - they ate the return shipping, which they should have. I have been fortunate enough to have satisfactory CS experiences with them, while many have not been so lucky.

While it may seem like I defended av123 in this thread...you should realize that I can say from personal experience they have definitely has some issues with some of their products. I have enjoyed some of their speakers - X-LS were good for the $$, the ELT series is nice, except I was disappointed in the 525C... But I wouldn't even think of gambling on any of their subs/electronics again. There are just too many good products available to have blind brand loyalty...

 

[Chu Gai]

It's hard to keep track of issues by product line, for sure. As to why the products made it past QC, well that's easy. There isn't any QC/QA program in place either in the US or wherever they're assembled. You're right. It's tough to recommend them and personally, I can't help but thinking that they look for means to cut corners in the manufacturing of their products in an effort to drive down costs and improve their bottom line. That'd be great if they weren't beset by additional costs like refunding your money on the product making it a negative sum game.

 

[dylancash]

Thanks for the link, but I didn't see an admission of the charity underpayment.

Let me help...

I'm happy that the important issues are all moving forward nicely - and the proof of that will be out there for those to see... I cannot move as fast as I would like (even underfunding two charitable situations) as last year decimated a good part of my own savings account... In each case I will deliver in full - however, just as I don't say much about what I was able to do over the years... I won't be shouting from the rooftops that I paid the underfunded portions... I will simply keep moving forward as I have...

Bolded for clarity.

 

[just listening]

Much appreciated Dylan.

Now the issue becomes paying the balance to the charities in full plus interest. Hopefully, an agreement is in place to do so. We may never know until long after it is done and over with, as I am betting lawyers have been involved.

 

[dylancash]

No problem. Like I said, it has been verified from other receiving parties that they did not receive the money either, but Mark has only admitted to the 2 that he was directly confronted with. Who knows how deep this goes, but its pretty safe to say it goes a lot deeper than what he has admitted to.

 

[Chu Gai]

Much appreciated Dylan.

Now the issue becomes paying the balance to the charities in full plus interest. Hopefully, an agreement is in place to do so. We may never know until long after it is done and over with, as I am betting lawyers have been involved.

From what Dave Fabrikant of Ascend has written, it doesn't appear that he'll be pursuing any private legal action. To paraphrase his thoughts, the issue of the charity monies and his father's death from cancer are exceedingly painful to revisit. While he hopes for MLS to turn things around, any relationships between the two have been irreparably damaged.

 

[dylancash]

From what Dave Fabrikant of Ascend has written, it doesn't appear that he'll be pursuing any private legal action. To paraphrase his thoughts, the issue of the charity monies and his father's death from cancer are exceedingly painful to revisit. While he hopes for MLS to turn things around, any relationships between the two have been irreparably damaged.

In these type of situations the victims usually feel almost embarrassed to out their friend. The hurt is overwhelming but they still feel badly about publicly throwing the person, who they thought was trying to help, under the bus. This is compounded by the fact that the perp is always asking for a little more time. Its a terrible, stressful state to be in.

The ones who usually get mad and want vengeance are the people who gave the money. The victims are literally too confused, hurt and shell shocked that they just don't even want to think about it and just want it to go away, but the donors are the ones who usually demand justice.