Crisis What Crisis

[Alex2507]

Actually we have a lot of fat and lazy people as well...

Don't I know it ... I am one.

 

[Tomorrow]

Actually we have a lot of fat and lazy people as well...

And Davemcc, you seem to have had the worst fortune in health care - I don't know ANYBODY who has had as hard a time as you. I feel for ya. My worst issue is that I've been waiting about 18 months to get a vasectomy. If that's as bad as it gets, I guess I'm doing OK.

I guess the main point I've been trying to get across is that you need not be afraid of public health care. It certainly doesn't have to look like the Canadian system - I wouldn't advise any country to follow our example. But the most effective systems appear to be a mix of public and private.

For Americans, look at it this way: health outcomes in most European countries are much better than yours. Some of them are better than Canada. Yet you guys pay much more per capita, by a wide margin, for your health care. So, are you getting value for your money? I would say not.

Food for thought...

As our U.S. polititicians would say, "Look!" We already have forms of socialized, government sponsored healthcare system(s)...Medicare, Medicaid, VA hospitals, etc. And they're all big, unwieldy, expensive, and inefficient bureaucracies. What is at foot here is that this administration is spending like money is free. Our Supreme Leader and his cronies are not proposing an improved healthcare system (agreed...that IS needed), but a government spending bill. There is NO cost containment ability in the bill. There is nothing in the bill that ensures improved and healthy lives. There is nothing in the bill except people MUST be covered by insurance, even if the government has to pay. Well...NEWS FLASH!...that's already the way it works. No one is turned away. All who seek medical care in the U.S. get it. And in pretty much the same way you Canucks do...in the ER.

What this bill does ensure is bigger, more powerful government. You baby Harp Seal killers may enjoy bigger-stronger governments...but then you never had your revolution against the British Empire. Eh?!

 

[lsiberian]

As our U.S. politicians would say, "Look!" We already have forms of socialized, government sponsored health-care system(s)...Medicare, Medicaid, VA hospitals, etc. And they're all big, unwieldy, expensive, and inefficient bureaucracies. What is at foot here is that this administration is spending like money is free. Our Supreme Leader and his cronies are not proposing an improved health-care system (agreed...that IS needed), but a government spending bill. There is NO cost containment ability in the bill. There is nothing in the bill that ensures improved and healthy lives. There is nothing in the bill except people MUST be covered by insurance, even if the government has to pay. Well...NEWS FLASH!...that's already the way it works. No one is turned away. All who seek medical care in the U.S. get it. And in pretty much the same way you Canucks do...in the ER.

What this bill does ensure is bigger, more powerful government. You baby Harp Seal killers may enjoy bigger-stronger governments...but then you never had your revolution against the British Empire. Eh?!

I'd be willing to bet we pay the same amount of taxes as Canada. Once you toss in sales tax, vehicle tax and other crazy taxes. I agree there is a lot of waste in our government, but we are a huge country. This is our biggest problem in my opinion. This is why I support a more State run model. The problem with our government trying to do health-care is it has 400 million people to manage. This just isn't as easy as a lower population.

Europe is doing good because they have several nations that run independently.

 

[highfigh]

I know anyone can say anything on the radio but here's what I heard today.
The government keeps throwing around this number of 47 million uninsured. It breaks down as:
19,000,000-can afford it but choose not to buy it.
10,000,000-non citizens and illeagal aliens

That leaves 18,000,000 who can't get insured or can't afford it.
If the US has approx. 300,000,000 population, that makes the uninsured only about 6%. Considering that 5% unemployment is considered FULL employment, how is 6% uninsured a crisis?

I think a program to pick up the 6%'s health care makes more sense than ruining it for everyone else. Of coarse costs, waste, corruption, and lawsuits need to be brought inline as well.

10 million illegals is WAYYYYY low.

 

[GO-NAD!]

As our U.S. polititicians would say, "Look!" We already have forms of socialized, government sponsored healthcare system(s)...Medicare, Medicaid, VA hospitals, etc. And they're all big, unwieldy, expensive, and inefficient bureaucracies. What is at foot here is that this administration is spending like money is free. Our Supreme Leader and his cronies are not proposing an improved healthcare system (agreed...that IS needed), but a government spending bill. There is NO cost containment ability in the bill. There is nothing in the bill that ensures improved and healthy lives. There is nothing in the bill except people MUST be covered by insurance, even if the government has to pay. Well...NEWS FLASH!...that's already the way it works. No one is turned away. All who seek medical care in the U.S. get it. And in pretty much the same way you Canucks do...in the ER.

What this bill does ensure is bigger, more powerful government. You baby Harp Seal killers may enjoy bigger-stronger governments...but then you never had your revolution against the British Empire. Eh?!

Well, I like the fact that when I walk out the door of an ER, there won't be a bill in my hand.

I actually grew up in the area where they hunt seals. Never went myself - I joined the Navy at 17. I have eaten seal meat though. Not bad, but it's pretty oily. By the way, the whitecoat (baby) hunt ended many years ago. They're only allowed to hunt older seals now. F***** hypocritical Europeans with their foie gras and bull fights!

 

[Nemo128]

Your CGI Mitch Miller avatar is really stupid.

That do anything for ya?

Who's Mitch Miller?

It's my Xbox Live avatar.

 

[Nemo128]

All who seek medical care in the U.S. get it. And in pretty much the same way you Canucks do...in the ER.

Dunno where you get that from. They are required to stabilize, not treat or cure or rehabilitate, people without money or insurance. You can walk into an ER with a gunshot wound here and they only need to stabilize you and get you on your feet. They write you a script to prevent infection, and if you can't afford it, that's your problem.

In an ER at Christ Hospital in Jersey City a few years ago, a guy in the ER was being told about the financials of his stabilization with a staff member after he was stable from a stabbing. He was told he won't be able to leave until he worked out a financial agreement, and he was threatened with collections before he uttered a word. They told him an estimate of how much his infection prevention meds would cost at the local Walgreens, and he said "I don't have that kind of money." The staff member responded "Well you shouldn't have been hanging out in a place where you could get stabbed."

So maybe you can define your use of the word "Care". Because it didn't sound like that person cared one bit.

OH, and this is rich. My gf, who has a good paying job as an architect and has better medical insurance than me (BCBS Fed) called 10 different OB/GYNs that came highly recommended. NONE of them were accepting new patients. The only ones that are turned out to be the worst rated doctors on RateMDs.com. Just for kicks, I ask a Canadian AF Captain I work with about the situation of OB/GYNs for his wife and daughters back home. He showed me online the doctors they use, how good they were, AND the fact that they accept new patients.

We pay for the "best" medical coverage for her, but she can't access the best doctors in this area. What kind of doctor turns people away that want care? I've had good doctors tell me they don't have an open appointment for 6 MONTHS TO A YEAR, but that's STILL better than flat out turning down new patients.

 

[highfigh]

I know I'm taking a chance by poking my nose in here. But, your health care system in the US really needs fixing - badly. Just look at how much it costs! You pay far more than than any other country in the world, yet average health outcomes are way down there in the OECD. One common refrain we hear is "Do you want some government bureacrat making decisions about your treatment?" Well, right now, you have some insurance company slimeball making those decisions.

My sister was at death's door a couple of years ago, with a strep infection in her bloodstream. A week in ICU in an induced coma. 3 or 4 weeks total, in the hospital. She wasn't responding to normal antibiotics, so the DOCTOR decided to break out some new drug that cost tens of thousands of dollars per dose to treat her. He didn't have to ask any government bureaucrat or an insurance company for permission. He just did it and it saved her life (I'm almost in tears as I type this). Do you know what her bill was when she was released from the hospital? Nothing, nada, zip. But guess what - our health care system costs about 70% of what the American system costs (it varies from year to year) We will be eternally grateful to that hospital staff and for our public health care system.

We don't get turned down for coverage because of "pre-existing conditions", there's no deductable, etc.

I won't claim that we have a perfect system. Far from it. Waiting lists for certain procedures are too long. We have a doctor shortage right now (they're retiring faster than they're being trained). There is some abuse, such as when some hypochondriacs visit their family doctor every other day.

But, I'll take our system over the American system any day. I'm not bragging about it, I just wish that enough of the American public could see past insurance company propaganda long enough to pressure your politicians to do something about it!

Glad to read that your sister made it but you need to think about where that special medicine came from, who is responsible if something had gone wrong and what regulations cover who does what to whom, with what and where it comes from. Our doctors can't just order whatever medicine they want- the FDA governs what is available and what can be used. Sure, we have clinical trails too, but they are the people who decide on these things. Also, our legal system..... 'Nuff said.

In addition, the number of illegals here amounts to almost 2/3 of the entire population of Canada. Try caring for them when they use the ER as their primary caregiver and can't/don't pay for their treatment. Who pays for that? The US taxpayers and what do we get in return? High crime of every type you can imagine, gangs, illegal drugs, a huge burden on every aspect of our infrastructure and they send tens of billions of dollars to their relatives in their home countries. How, exactly, are these people good for our economy? If we could somehow remove them and not have to pay for their expenses, I'd be willing to bet that all US taxes would be lower, the cost of produce would basically be the same (how much food has to be destroyed when some dirtbag causes a hepatitis, Salmonella or E-Coli outbreak?) and even though landscaping and drywall would cost more (the usual examples), we would be healthier and have more money left. Also, the tens of billions wouldn't have been shipped out and would still be IN the economy.

Look into how our medical system is controlled and who controls it before telling us to pressure our politicians. They do what they want, when they want and at this point, there's not much we can do about it.

As an example, the Dept of Energy didn't exist until President Carter formed it. It now has a ridiculous budget, far too much control over too many things and about 100K contract workers, in addition to the full time workers.

Check this out, too:
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/tobyharnden/8728747/25_57348__what_Barack_Obamas_budget_will_cost_each_taxpayer/

Government is supposed to protect us from outside harm, protect our borders and guarantee some rights but they are not supposed to tell us what to do, when, and give some people everything at the expense of someone else. Making us pay for things we can or should do for ourselves is a big reason the Colonists revolted. The level of representation may be related to the population in those areas but I don't see them responding to the majority.

 

[lsiberian]

Who's Mitch Miller?

It's my Xbox Live avatar.

Well I think it's a distinguished look.

Be careful with the teeth though. Teeth make monkey's violent.

is the safe way to look at a monkey.

 

[Alex2507]

Who's Mitch Miller?

I think you're kidding but in case you're not: Mitch Miller invented the goatee and made it so that you became instantly cool by wearing one. That's my take anyways.

What's Xbox?

 

[GO-NAD!]

Glad to read that your sister made it but you need to think about where that special medicine came from, who is responsible if something had gone wrong and what regulations cover who does what to whom, with what and where it comes from. Our doctors can't just order whatever medicine they want- the FDA governs what is available and what can be used. Sure, we have clinical trails too, but they are the people who decide on these things. Also, our legal system..... 'Nuff said.

In addition, the number of illegals here amounts to almost 2/3 of the entire population of Canada. Try caring for them when they use the ER as their primary caregiver and can't/don't pay for their treatment. Who pays for that? The US taxpayers and what do we get in return? High crime of every type you can imagine, gangs, illegal drugs, a huge burden on every aspect of our infrastructure and they send tens of billions of dollars to their relatives in their home countries. How, exactly, are these people good for our economy? If we could somehow remove them and not have to pay for their expenses, I'd be willing to bet that all US taxes would be lower, the cost of produce would basically be the same (how much food has to be destroyed when some dirtbag causes a hepatitis, Salmonella or E-Coli outbreak?) and even though landscaping and drywall would cost more (the usual examples), we would be healthier and have more money left. Also, the tens of billions wouldn't have been shipped out and would still be IN the economy.

Look into how our medical system is controlled and who controls it before telling us to pressure our politicians. They do what they want, when they want and at this point, there's not much we can do about it.

As an example, the Dept of Energy didn't exist until President Carter formed it. It now has a ridiculous budget, far too much control over too many things and about 100K contract workers, in addition to the full time workers.

Check this out, too:
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/tobyharnden/8728747/25_57348__what_Barack_Obamas_budget_will_cost_each_taxpayer/

Government is supposed to protect us from outside harm, protect our borders and guarantee some rights but they are not supposed to tell us what to do, when, and give some people everything at the expense of someone else. Making us pay for things we can or should do for ourselves is a big reason the Colonists revolted. The level of representation may be related to the population in those areas but I don't see them responding to the majority.

Holy crap! I never said it was an experimental drug! It was an approved antibiotic - just very expensive because it was brand new. Everything is regulated here as well - just like the US. We just don't have such a, er, uh, litigious society. My original point was that the cost of the drug was no object in the treatment of my sister - no insurance company approval required. No checking with the family to see if we could pony up the dough to cover the costs either.

I can't make any educated comment on illegal immigrants in the US. We have them in Canada, but apparently not on the same scale. I just have a question about that. If they are illegal immigrants, how are they a drain on the health care system? Wouldn't an insurance company ask about a person's staus before providing coverage? And, if they did get coverage, how are they any more of drain on the system than a legal citizen. If they don't get coverage, how would they access care in the first place - beyond the absolute minimum required by law? I really don't understand how the problem can be pinned on illegal immigrants.

As for the government "telling people what to do" with regards to health care - I don't see any connection. You could take "small government to the extreme - make national defence a private industry. You could say, "well now that's ridiculous - private industry couldn't defend our country effectively!", and you'd be right. But some people say that private health care is ridiculous as well, because it can't effectively care for for everybody in the country either.

It's just a matter of how far you want to take it.

 

[Rickster71]

I can't make any educated comment on illegal immigrants in the US. We have them in Canada, but apparently not on the same scale. I just have a question about that. If they are illegal immigrants, how are they a drain on the health care system?

This may shed some light:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3827/is_200208/ai_n9125198/?tag=rel.res1

 

[jeffsg4mac]

Originally Posted by GO-NAD!

I can't make any educated comment on illegal immigrants in the US. We have them in Canada, but apparently not on the same scale. I just have a question about that. If they are illegal immigrants, how are they a drain on the health care system?


Good question! Me and millions of other Americans would love to have an answer to that.

 

[highfigh]

In comparison, I was floored when I went to my wifes home country of Colombia last year and saw state of the art medical facilities and prescription drugs that would cost $500/bottle here for $6/bottle there. Lasik surgery was invented there and costs 1/4th the price it does here. Yet that is considered a 3rd world country. Surely we could do better here?!?

I seem to remember reading/seeing that the Medellin Cartel built some of the hospitals, schools and other projects, to show that they cared about the community. With the amounts of money confiscated during their reign, I would think the Colombian government would have used some for this, too.

It may just be my perception but IMO, greed and avarice are the main reasons the US is in the condition we find it now.

 

[highfigh]

I can't make any educated comment on illegal immigrants in the US. We have them in Canada, but apparently not on the same scale. I just have a question about that. If they are illegal immigrants, how are they a drain on the health care system? Wouldn't an insurance company ask about a person's staus before providing coverage? And, if they did get coverage, how are they any more of drain on the system than a legal citizen. If they don't get coverage, how would they access care in the first place - beyond the absolute minimum required by law? I really don't understand how the problem can be pinned on illegal immigrants.

As for the government "telling people what to do" with regards to health care - I don't see any connection. You could take "small government to the extreme - make national defence a private industry. You could say, "well now that's ridiculous - private industry couldn't defend our country effectively!", and you'd be right. But some people say that private health care is ridiculous as well, because it can't effectively care for for everybody in the country either.

It's just a matter of how far you want to take it.

How are people who have no money a drain? An ER won't turn people away. Who pays for those who can't? Everyone else. The insurance company doesn't become involved in it until they're billed for the care. Then, they will pay all, part or none of the bill. That leaves the patient to pay. If they don't, it goes to a collection department. Illegals apparently have more rights than citizens because our freakin' Congress wants to let them drive legally, have free health coverage and get a pass on any taxes they should have paid while they are here illegally but a life-long US citizen HAS to pay their own way.

National defense is not something I want privatized. That benefits everyone. I never said I want everything privatized. The problem I have is that the only employers that are adding employees are in government. Our taxes have increased pretty drastically in recent years because the Federal Government has grown to insane proportions. On top of that pile is the fact that governments are notoriously wasteful. Adding fuel to a fire is a bad way to put it out. Biden recently said that we need to increase spending so the country doesn't go broke. That kind of thinking is absurd.

If all of the costs to support the illegals for one year are added, including the money they send out to others (most of which will never return to the economy) it approaches a Trillion dollars. Think of it this way- you have a job, a family and a house, with a budget that covers your expenses. At some point, someone moves in without your permission, eats your food, beats you and your family, damages the place and invites their family and friends for more of the same. You get a second job to pay for what they use and damage, they can't pay and you say "It's OK, we'll put the wife and kids to work". Eventually, they take those jobs because the wife and kids didn't like the work and the "guests" will do it for less.

Where does it become time for you to say "Enough is enough"?

 

[Davemcc]

It may just be my perception but IMO, greed and avarice are the main reasons the US is in the condition we find it now.

Greed built the US into the nation that it is today...the wealthiest, economic powerhouse in the history of the world. Henry Ford's greed built an empire that employed millions of people in an above average lifestyle for over a century. Same with Chrysler and GM. Same with those who built steel, railroad and food empires. Greed, i.e. the desire to improve your life beyond that of your neighbors, is the driving force behind American commerce and is the sole source and sustainer of the American lifestyle.

The source of our current trouble is the greed of those who would steal the proceeds of those who are successful. It's the gov't who steals the capital and proceeds of success for social engineering programs that caused successful enterprise to fail. Gov't is the cause of the banking failure and bears responsibility for our ongoing issues. The greed of our forefathers built a nation that could employ and insure the entire population. The desire of the gov't to steal their legacy is our downfall.

 

[GO-NAD!]

How are people who have no money a drain? An ER won't turn people away. Who pays for those who can't? Everyone else. The insurance company doesn't become involved in it until they're billed for the care. Then, they will pay all, part or none of the bill. That leaves the patient to pay. If they don't, it goes to a collection department. Illegals apparently have more rights than citizens because our freakin' Congress wants to let them drive legally, have free health coverage and get a pass on any taxes they should have paid while they are here illegally but a life-long US citizen HAS to pay their own way.

National defense is not something I want privatized. That benefits everyone. I never said I want everything privatized. The problem I have is that the only employers that are adding employees are in government. Our taxes have increased pretty drastically in recent years because the Federal Government has grown to insane proportions. On top of that pile is the fact that governments are notoriously wasteful. Adding fuel to a fire is a bad way to put it out. Biden recently said that we need to increase spending so the country doesn't go broke. That kind of thinking is absurd.

If all of the costs to support the illegals for one year are added, including the money they send out to others (most of which will never return to the economy) it approaches a Trillion dollars. Think of it this way- you have a job, a family and a house, with a budget that covers your expenses. At some point, someone moves in without your permission, eats your food, beats you and your family, damages the place and invites their family and friends for more of the same. You get a second job to pay for what they use and damage, they can't pay and you say "It's OK, we'll put the wife and kids to work". Eventually, they take those jobs because the wife and kids didn't like the work and the "guests" will do it for less.

Where does it become time for you to say "Enough is enough"?

From what I've read in the media (and you can take it for what it's worth), there are plenty of US citizens who end up in ERs and can't pay for their care - so does it all come down to illegal immigration?

As for governments being notoriously wasteful - I agree. I was in the Canadian Navy for 23 years and I saw it first hand. However, that does not mean that private industry, by definition, is more efficient. The administrative costs for American health care facilities is astronomical. Why? Because they have to deal with probably hundreds of insurance companies. In Canada, they deal with ONE, the Canadian government. Administrative costs are miniscule compared to the US. That cuts way down on the overhead.

That's not to say it's all sunshine and happiness here. There is no public drug plan. Therefore, if you don't have a private insurance plan with drug coverage, you have to pay for your own prescriptions. Depending on the cost of the drugs in question, that can ruin a person financially - justy like the US. Plus, people who can't afford their prescriptions and go without, get sicker and sicker, until they end up in hospital - where the drugs are then covered by the government.

Medicare in Canada covers the costs of visiting your family doctor and tests ordered by the doctor, as long as the tests are conducted in a government facility (contrary to popular belief, there are private health care facilities in Canada). Hospital costs are covered as well. So, that can leave people in limbo. They don't have to pay to see their family doctor, but if they need a prescriptionm that they can't afford, they have to wait until their condition becomes an emergency and they are admitted to the hospital. In the hospital, pretty much everything is covered - including the drugs they couldn't afford to buy before they were admitted. Tell me that makes sense!

So, leaving it to government alone or private industry alone is not the answer. There has to be a mix, in order to ensure everybody is covered adequately. There is no getting around the fact that it won't be really efficient - whether it's a private system or a public system. There are inefficiencies in both. That's human nature...

 

[GO-NAD!]

Enough Health Care!

That's it - I won't be making any more comments on health care! It's making my head hurt!

 

[highfigh]

Greed built the US into the nation that it is today...the wealthiest, economic powerhouse in the history of the world. Henry Ford's greed built an empire that employed millions of people in an above average lifestyle for over a century. Same with Chrysler and GM. Same with those who built steel, railroad and food empires. Greed, i.e. the desire to improve your life beyond that of your neighbors, is the driving force behind American commerce and is the sole source and sustainer of the American lifestyle.

The source of our current trouble is the greed of those who would steal the proceeds of those who are successful. It's the gov't who steals the capital and proceeds of success for social engineering programs that caused successful enterprise to fail. Gov't is the cause of the banking failure and bears responsibility for our ongoing issues. The greed of our forefathers built a nation that could employ and insure the entire population.

The US is far from the only country that was built on greed. Every invading country wanted what it didn't have and could take by force. I first heard about Manifest Destiny when I was in 3rd grade and always thought it was bullshid. EVERY country that set up colonies around the world knew that having outposts around the world would make it necessary for others to pay for access to what they had.

"The desire of the gov't to steal their legacy is our downfall."

You said a mouthful. I'm pretty sure we could solve the energy crisis by connecting to the graves of my/our ancestors. The first of mine came here during the English Civil War, in 1654, after his father died and left him some money. I really don't see much difference between what he left and what we're headed toward (other than the fact that we won't actually have a monarchy).

 

[highfigh]

That's it - I won't be making any more comments on health care! It's making my head hurt!

Go ahead- it's just differences in our opinions.