Amp recommendation for $75K system

P

PaulF

Audioholic
Audioholics, you recommend the Denon POA-A1HDCI for your top of the line $75K system. I am just wondering why, and why no other alternative was suggested like some of the less expensive systems?

Given the great reviews the Emotivas got on your site, is the Denon still the most highly regarded amp?
 
Lordoftherings

Lordoftherings

Banned
Audioholics, you recommend the Denon POA-A1HDCI for your top of the line $75K system. I am just wondering why, and why no other alternative was suggested like some of the less expensive systems?

Given the great reviews the Emotivas got on your site, is the Denon still the most highly regarded amp?
Wow! Very interesting question, Paul.

Mmm... $75,000...let see, this % goes to the speakers, then the projector, the screen, the preamp, top blu-ray player, OK I got it, the POA-A1HDCI is not a bad choice, but before I depart my hard earned cash, I will audition 7 Emotiva XPA-1 mono-blocks (maybe 9 to bi-amp my two front mains) and then a Theta Digital Dreadnaught III (maybe two of these) just for start. I don't like to rush things out, when I spend 5 to $10,000 on the pre/pro alone.

Then I listen to these three for a while and make up my mind, then search for some more alternative, just to make sure, you know...

Perhaps, I'll give an audition to the Anthem Statement P5 with a couple of Emotiva XPA-1.

Or an ATI AT3007 to save some money and put it towards better speakers, or subs.

I will have to give a listen too to a Classe CA-5200 in conjunction with an Emotiva XPA-2 for the two rear surround channels.

Mmm., got to give a shot at the Krell S-1500/7 just for fairness.

Simaudio Moon MC-8/7, nope, too much money, forget it.

Few Bryston amps to make it a total of 7 in a combination, like a 6B-SST and a couple of 4B-SST perhaps? I know that I can strike a good deal on these, they are my territory after all..., which will be not much more than the Denon POA-AIHDCI after all negociations done.


So, afterall, I guess you're right Paul, there are other options (or alternative) to consider auditioning.

Bob
 
P

PaulF

Audioholic
Right on Bob, once you're into that kind of money lots of options open up. You listed some good ones. Others include the McIntosh MC207, Parasound A21/A51, Sim Audio Aurora (or the Gemstone Blue Diamond ;)) -- albeit no other is 10 channel... but who needs it?
 
Lordoftherings

Lordoftherings

Banned
Oh, I know which ones I omitted (McIntosh and others), but this was only an example. If I will had gone all the way, the thread would already be full. ;)

I just wish more people would join in. I love that kind of stuff. :)
But it'll come eventually, people are just starting to warm up; they stay on the sideline, and then suddenly when the time is ripe, they jump in both feet and arms on the open, completely nude and vulnerable. :)

I appreciate that, what you start Paul, that can create interesting discussions.

Bests,

Bob

Note: By the way, the Theta Digital Dreadnaught III (sounds naughty, doesn't?), is a 10-channel amplifier, and I mentioned two of these perhaps, for a total of 20 powered channels, each delivering 225 watts into 8ohms, and 450 watts into 4ohms. So you have 10 bi-amped speakers, plus 3 separate powered subwoofers (let be quite reasonable here, three SVS PB13-Ultra, just to not go overboard), in a total system configuration of 10.3-channel surround setup.
And later on, you can always add two more channels, to make it a 12.3-channel surround setup. And by also adding a couple extra mono-block amps (this time for your two front mains), a pair of Boulder 2050 (to still remain within the boundary of reason).
 
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lsiberian

lsiberian

Audioholic Overlord
Audioholics, you recommend the Denon POA-A1HDCI for your top of the line $75K system. I am just wondering why, and why no other alternative was suggested like some of the less expensive systems?

Given the great reviews the Emotivas got on your site, is the Denon still the most highly regarded amp?
It all depends on your goals. But I don't think you need to spend 75k. If I had that kinda cash I would do everything possible to mimick the Wmax or TLS Guy system. Those guys leave no stone unturned on the road to great sound.

I would have custom speakers made with constraint layer building and fiber treatment. I would definitely use JL Audio 8w7s for the low end 3-way module with maybe some of the Primus or Beta drivers for the mid range. Then a really nice ribbon tweeter for the highs.

For amps I wouldn't even waste my time with anything but pro amps. I would bi-amp with Yamaha pro amps. I would integrate everything with DCX 2496s

I would use a pre amp to process video stuff. Like the Onkyo 800 dollar one with AS and many other bells and whistles.

For sub I would build a single ported Axis 15" subs dedicated to the lowest portion since the JL Audio 8's can smoke the upper bass range.

This post has me day dreaming again. :)
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
Audioholics, you recommend the Denon POA-A1HDCI for your top of the line $75K system. I am just wondering why, and why no other alternative was suggested like some of the less expensive systems?

Given the great reviews the Emotivas got on your site, is the Denon still the most highly regarded amp?
I selected the POA only to match the AVP for aesthetics and function. The POA is a good amp but its certainly NOT the best amp out there. I love the link connection however and the fact that you have 10 channels in 1 box. Imagine how much rack space you would need to stack 7 or 10 XPA1's? Monoblock amps are not practical for multi channel.

There are many good options out there from companies such as Parasound, Bryston, Anthem, Sim Audio, etc. The point of the Recommended systems it to design a system that has good function and form factor. Many consumers prefer their electronics to aesthetically match and whenever possible to stick with the same brand. I hear this from installers quite often.

That being said, its probably time to update that system as well as the others...
 
lsiberian

lsiberian

Audioholic Overlord
I selected the POA only to match the AVP for aesthetics and function. The POA is a good amp but its certainly NOT the best amp out there. I love the link connection however and the fact that you have 10 channels in 1 box. Imagine how much rack space you would need to stack 7 or 10 XPA1's? Monoblock amps are not practical for multi channel.

There are many good options out there from companies such as Parasound, Bryston, Anthem, Sim Audio, etc. The point of the Recommended systems it to design a system that has good function and form factor. Many consumers prefer their electronics to aesthetically match and whenever possible to stick with the same brand. I hear this from installers quite often.

That being said, its probably time to update that system as well as the others...
Emotiva XPA-5 would probably fill the bill for most folks though. Might be a way to save money for other toys.
 
P

PaulF

Audioholic
Note: By the way, the Theta Digital Dreadnaught III (sounds naughty, doesn't?), is a 10-channel amplifier, and I mentioned two of these perhaps, for a total of 20 powered channels, each delivering 225 watts into 8ohms, and 450 watts into 4ohms. So you have 10 bi-amped speakers, plus 3 separate powered subwoofers (let be quite reasonable here, three SVS PB13-Ultra, just to not go overboard), in a total system configuration of 10.3-channel surround setup.
And later on, you can always add two more channels, to make it a 12.3-channel surround setup. And by also adding a couple extra mono-block amps (this time for your two front mains), a pair of Boulder 2050 (to still remain within the boundary of reason).
Bob, is this your system? >> Greatest Show on Earth. It is set up in a ring!
 
P

PaulF

Audioholic
It all depends on your goals. But I don't think you need to spend 75k. If I had that kinda cash I would do everything possible to mimick the Wmax or TLS Guy system. Those guys leave no stone unturned on the road to great sound.

I would have custom speakers made with constraint layer building and fiber treatment. I would definitely use JL Audio 8w7s for the low end 3-way module with maybe some of the Primus or Beta drivers for the mid range. Then a really nice ribbon tweeter for the highs.

For amps I wouldn't even waste my time with anything but pro amps. I would bi-amp with Yamaha pro amps. I would integrate everything with DCX 2496s

I would use a pre amp to process video stuff. Like the Onkyo 800 dollar one with AS and many other bells and whistles.

For sub I would build a single ported Axis 15" subs dedicated to the lowest portion since the JL Audio 8's can smoke the upper bass range.

This post has me day dreaming again. :)
Got any links to those guys' systems? I'm not really into patch-quilting a system together though, too many things to go wrong.

I don't tend to see many pro amps that are home audio friendly -- often look industrial and have noisy fans and the wrong type of connectors. There are some out there pushing them though, like these guys >> High End Zone.

I would think custom speakers would cost a first born, but I am looking at twin JL F113s unless I hear about something better. Paradigm Sub25 caught my eye also.
 
P

PaulF

Audioholic
Gene, form, fit and function are all important to me. I would like to know your thoughts on what lies between the Emotiva XPA-2+XPA-5 combo and the Denon POA-A1HDCI, or is the general thinking that because Emo is ID, there are effectively equivalent to a $3K retail option?

I am looking at the Emo pair and the Sherbourn 7100. From your reviews it appears the Emos are better performers but Sherbourn has better aesthetics, smaller etc.
 
Chopin_Guy

Chopin_Guy

Senior Audioholic
Given your budget....you have a lot of options that can be considered to get a system that will be fantastic bar-none. My question would be what is the usage going to be--- music listening vs. home theater -- that will determine much of the type of gear and components to consider. The Denon is a fine amp, but I think there are other avenues to consider that will provide better performance...especially considering the fact if you will even need 10 channels of amplification to begin with...

As for the subs you mentioned you can get more performance for your money from SVS (Say like 4 PB13 ultras)---however the Paradigm Sub25 you mentioned, got a nice review that favored it over the F113 that I read recently. Although with as much coin as you are looking at spending you could maybe swing 2 of the new F213's...that would be spectacular for sure....
 
Lordoftherings

Lordoftherings

Banned
What a Show it is indeed!

Bob, is this your system? >> Greatest Show on Earth. It is set up in a ring!
Hey Paul, how did you find out about my favorite home theater setup?

Seriously, you must had read me somewhere on another forum?
Tell me now, you are starting to be intriguing...

Actually, I believe that the major place and perhaps the only place where I made a big mention of that (because I don't ever remember talking about this here at Audioholics) was at AVS.

Are you a visitor or maybe a member at AVS? Are you using another name?

Or is it really just a fluke?

I knew all about it as far back as of January 2008, when the review appears in the Home Theater Mag of the February 2008 issue, also with a review of the Onkyo TX-SR805 in that same issue.

Well, this is very cool that you bring that link here. I hope people will have a look to it and be blown away!

Bob

P.S. Paul, sorry to change the subject, but I got a small problem here and I was wondering if you might know the solution. Here it is: I try to put a smilie for the last couple hours or so, but when I click to the little smilie at right, they don't appear anymore on my text! Do you know how come? If I want to put one on the title of my post, no problem. But on my post itself, it is now unusable!!! Any help will be greatly appreciate from anyone with a solution.

And yes, it is setup in a Ring Dac.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
Gene, form, fit and function are all important to me. I would like to know your thoughts on what lies between the Emotiva XPA-2+XPA-5 combo and the Denon POA-A1HDCI, or is the general thinking that because Emo is ID, there are effectively equivalent to a $3K retail option?

I am looking at the Emo pair and the Sherbourn 7100. From your reviews it appears the Emos are better performers but Sherbourn has better aesthetics, smaller etc.
Since my system has come up, I will tell you that I use exclusively Quad current dumping amplifiers.

The Class C feed forward power amplifier was a patent of the late Peter Walker OBE. In this design you get class A performance without the disadvantages. The performance of the amps is determined by a small very good class A amp. The power is provided by the output dumpers. There is a feed forward error correction from the class A amp. Peter demonstrated in a number of papers, that performance of the designs are determined by the class A amplifier.

Peter Walker was a genius, and one of the great pioneers of audio. He was owner and founder of the Acoustical Manufacturing company which sold equipment under the Quad banner. He founded the company prior to the second World War.

Since Peter's death, Quad and his patents have come to be owned by IAG (International Audio Group) out of China, and still manufacturing equipment under the Quad and other famous brand names such as Warfedale.

The only current dumper being produced is Peter's last current dumping design, the Quad 909. The design is built and produced as he left it.

One of the attributes that distinguished Peter's electronics was extreme longevity, and high resistance to loss of performance over time. I have two of his 303s, one from the late sixties. I have never had the cover off. The 303 by the way was the first solid state amp that was any good.

The 909 has triple output stage dumper transistors and produces 250 watts per channel into a four ohm load. There are no internal adjustments, and because of Peter's unique design, component values can wander by 30 to 40% over time without degrading performance. This later was another claim Peter backed up. The amplifier has no internal adjustments, nor does it require any.

The 909 is a powerful, very smooth amplifier without character or temperament. It comes very close, in fact as close as is inconsequential, to fulfilling Peter's goal of a wire with gain.

In its power class, I can recommend the Quad 909 as a best buy over any other, in regards to performance, longevity and lack of fuss. Any purchaser of a Quad 909 has every reason to expect that far more likely than not he will have a half century or more of trouble free performance. That is value for money.

Quad now allow for Internet sales to customers who have no local dealers.

The Quad 909 can be purchased here.

This eBay seller who is also an authorized Quad dealer has a demo for sale now.

The owner, Lane, is a very nice guy and easy to deal with. He will be happy to sell you as many 909s as you require, to build your home theater system.

For a system in your price range these amplifiers would be my top recommendation.

You can see my system by clicking on the links in my signature.
 
Joeteck

Joeteck

Audioholic
I've never in my life seen a rear of an AMP look like this...

Enough option??? Jeez! This has to be the top of the line on every level....
 
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gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
Gene, form, fit and function are all important to me. I would like to know your thoughts on what lies between the Emotiva XPA-2+XPA-5 combo and the Denon POA-A1HDCI, or is the general thinking that because Emo is ID, there are effectively equivalent to a $3K retail option?

I am looking at the Emo pair and the Sherbourn 7100. From your reviews it appears the Emos are better performers but Sherbourn has better aesthetics, smaller etc.
As good as the Emo amps are, the Denon IMO is still a better performer as it should be considering the asking price. However, I would definately take the Emo XPA-s over the Sherbourns.
 
Joeteck

Joeteck

Audioholic
Actually thats a pre-amp :)
Pre-amp? LOL.... it does no amplification, nothing? Why does it have 12 speaker outputs? And why does it need to have all that monster electronics inside if its only a pro-amp?
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Okay, call me stuck-up or whatever, but for $75K, I don't think I would even look at Emotiva, Outlaw, or any "budget" components.:D

I wouldn't even look at Denon because for $15K, I expect A LOT more than a 2-year warranty.:eek:

Maybe get some class-A analog components from Bryston and get that 20-year warranty.:D

Parasound also sounds good.

Speakers - so many options: B&W, RBH, etc.

I wouldn't even mess with a projector. I know I have one (2nd one:D), but I think I would just get the new Mitsubishi 82" Diamond Series DLP HDTV.

Man, I wish I had $75K to spend on my next home theater!:eek::D
 
P

PaulF

Audioholic
As for the subs you mentioned you can get more performance for your money from SVS (Say like 4 PB13 ultras)---however the Paradigm Sub25 you mentioned, got a nice review that favored it over the F113 that I read recently. Although with as much coin as you are looking at spending you could maybe swing 2 of the new F213's...that would be spectacular for sure....
Four PB13s would be a room killer. I have checked the measurements on Home Theater Shack and no doubt the PB13 is a performer, it shines for sheer output. The F113s are known for a tighter, more controlled bottom end -- consistent across reviews. Check the group delay measurements on HTS. Any amp suggestions welcome.

Hey Paul, how did you find out about my favorite home theater setup?

Actually, I believe that the major place and perhaps the only place where I made a big mention of that (because I don't ever remember talking about this here at Audioholics) was at AVS.

Are you a visitor or maybe a member at AVS? Are you using another name?

Or is it really just a fluke?
It's a fluke Bob. I go by the same name at AVS. Sorry, don't know about emoticons.

Since my system has come up, I will tell you that I use exclusively Quad current dumping amplifiers.

The Class C feed forward power amplifier was a patent of the late Peter Walker OBE. In this design you get class A performance without the disadvantages. The performance of the amps is determined by a small very good class A amp. The power is provided by the output dumpers. There is a feed forward error correction from the class A amp. Peter demonstrated in a number of papers, that performance of the designs are determined by the class A amplifier.

The 909 has triple output stage dumper transistors and produces 250 watts per channel into a four ohm load. There are no internal adjustments, and because of Peter's unique design, component values can wander by 30 to 40% over time without degrading performance. This later was another claim Peter backed up. The amplifier has no internal adjustments, nor does it require any.

In its power class, I can recommend the Quad 909 as a best buy over any other, in regards to performance, longevity and lack of fuss. Any purchaser of a Quad 909 has every reason to expect that far more likely than not he will have a half century or more of trouble free performance. That is value for money.

For a system in your price range these amplifiers would be my top recommendation.
I will check them out for curiosity but otherwise they don't fit my requirements. I am looking for no more than two pieces to get to 7 channels (and preferably one). I am not an amp genius but do know my amp classes. What do you mean by class C, these are used in RF circuits. Also, what is a stage dumper? Darlington pair? This would not be unique, Emo does this.

Okay, call me stuck-up or whatever, but for $75K, I don't think I would even look at Emotiva, Outlaw, or any "budget" components.:D

I wouldn't even look at Denon because for $15K, I expect A LOT more than a 2-year warranty.:eek:

Maybe get some class-A analog components from Bryston and get that 20-year warranty.:D

Parasound also sounds good.

Speakers - so many options: B&W, RBH, etc.
For two channel there are lots of options. What I have found is that the traditional amp guys don't lend themselves well to 7 channel HT setups, or they simply multiply the cost per channel to something that is totally unaffordable.

Speakers will be B&W. I have not heard anything that sounds better for the price. I of course have not heard everything but won't buy speakers unheard. We can discuss speakers in another thread if there is interest in what I have auditioned.
 
Warpdrv

Warpdrv

Audioholic Ninja
Four PB13s would be a room killer. I have checked the measurements on Home Theater Shack and no doubt the PB13 is a performer, it shines for sheer output. The F113s are known for a tighter, more controlled bottom end -- consistent across reviews. Check the group delay measurements on HTS. Any amp suggestions welcome.

Both those subs are very good indeed, I own the F112 and its a great performer, but with the kind of budget you are looking at, I would hold off for a short time and get some of the new TC-Sounds upcoming 2009 LMS 18" subs...

Kyle is working on them and has been slowly releasing info about them, and they will be a bit better then the already infamous LMS-5400's measured at HTS. A few of those with the right amps, and you will have the best measuring and topple the output of any commercial sub... I'm gathering they will be in the $1300-$1500 range for the raw drivers, have some nice cabinets made or DIY and never look back !!!!

You seem to be on a mission to have the best of the best, just thought I would aim you in the right direction for the subs as well... :) Good luck on your journey Paul...
 

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