DO NOT BUY anything from AV123

[geekinthehood]

And yet why would you want to...? And how can you trust what they say regarding what's in stock?

Not necessarily disagreeing with the rest of what you said, but wanted to clear up a point. My info about what's in stock didn't come from someone at AV123; it came from this post:

(since I still don't have enough posts here to post a link, you'll have to cut-and-paste this)

tweakcityaudio.com/forum/showpost.php?p=17945&postcount=645

 

[abboudc]

No, it is not a Ponzi scheme, it is a company with a cash flow problem.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ponzi_scheme

"A Ponzi scheme is a fraudulent investment operation that pays returns to investors from their own money or money paid by subsequent investors rather than from any actual profit earned."

Not getting "subsequent" buyers causing the house of cards to collapse for current buyers is essentially a Ponzi scheme. You should never have a "cash flow problem" if the products you're selling are profitable, unless you didn't have the initial capital to fund the business to begin with, or you can't move enough product to cover operational costs.

I'm *not* saying AV123 is operating a Ponzi scheme...just that what MidnightSensei described is a Ponzi scheme. Taking two orders and only having enough money to fulfill one, unless a third buyer comes along because the next guys order is funding the prior guy's purchase.

In any case, call it what you want, it's a *very* poor way to manage a company. Clearly a lot of people are out money with no product. If the money was coming in...where was it going? It appears the only ones with negative cash flow were the customers that were putting out money and getting nothing in return and were not given refunds when they asked.

 

[m-fine]

Cash flow problems are when you have to pay your expenses to suppliers and employees before you receive your revenue from customers. The profitability is there, but the timing difference between cash going out and cash coming in can cause major issues for some businesses.

That aint happening here. AV123 is taking customer money in advance, in some cases years in advance. If they are short on cash which I am certain they are, it is because they are not able to operate profitably. Those unbelievable deals WERE too good to be sustainable. The bad rep they have been building means Rockets now sell for less than half what they did 18 months ago, and since they have been kicked out of the SAC factory I have a hard time believing the costs have come down that much. It does not take much speculation to come to the conclussion that even though sales numbers were OK if not good last year, the profits must have been abysmal and things are looking worse for 2009 not better with the sale prices becoming permanent prices and then dropping further. Simply put, the brand and product are no longer worth what they once were.

To be a Ponzei scheme they would have to NOT be investing the money they take in into building speakers. What they are doing (well some of it) is still fraud and illegal because they are lying to customers. There are also the accusations from some pretty reliable individuals about Mark stealing the charity raffle money. OH MY!!!!!!! If there is not a DARN good response from MLS about what happened there and why, there will be no more hugs from me, and I will definitely never do business with him or one of his companies again.

On a final note, I got banned for life from Craig's forum for saying people have a right and responsibility to speculate about AV123's financial health. Looks like he was not able to keep the lid on the story for too long though. I am glad the word is getting out so new people do not get screwed without warning, and I hope all those owed money or product get it. It sounded like Mark had several houses and nice cars so hopefully he can liquidate those assets and make good on his commitments.

 

[mtrycrafts]

...I can think of some analogies, but they'd all get me in trouble.

....

I thought your middle name was Trouble?

 

[craigsub]

Cash flow problems are when you have to pay your expenses to suppliers and employees before you receive your revenue from customers. The profitability is there, but the timing difference between cash going out and cash coming in can cause major issues for some businesses.

That aint happening here. AV123 is taking customer money in advance, in some cases years in advance. If they are short on cash which I am certain they are, it is because they are not able to operate profitably. Those unbelievable deals WERE too good to be sustainable. The bad rep they have been building means Rockets now sell for less than half what they did 18 months ago, and since they have been kicked out of the SAC factory I have a hard time believing the costs have come down that much. It does not take much speculation to come to the conclussion that even though sales numbers were OK if not good last year, the profits must have been abysmal and things are looking worse for 2009 not better with the sale prices becoming permanent prices and then dropping further. Simply put, the brand and product are no longer worth what they once were.

To be a Ponzei scheme they would have to NOT be investing the money they take in into building speakers. What they are doing (well some of it) is still fraud and illegal because they are lying to customers. There are also the accusations from some pretty reliable individuals about Mark stealing the charity raffle money. OH MY!!!!!!! If there is not a DARN good response from MLS about what happened there and why, there will be no more hugs from me, and I will definitely never do business with him or one of his companies again.

On a final note, I got banned for life from Craig's forum for saying people have a right and responsibility to speculate about AV123's financial health. Looks like he was not able to keep the lid on the story for too long though. I am glad the word is getting out so new people do not get screwed without warning, and I hope all those owed money or product get it. It sounded like Mark had several houses and nice cars so hopefully he can liquidate those assets and make good on his commitments.

Mr. Fine, you are free to lie about being banned for life all you wish, but the simple fact is, you were reinstated over 3 months ago, and you were on Tweak City's forum on February 16, 2009.

Here is a copy/paste from your profile:

m-fine
Vice President and Design Engineer

Send Message User Lists User Notes (0) Edit User Profile Last Activity: 02-16-2009 10:14 AM

As for "keeping the lid on the story", once again, you are lying.

Here are links to several very open threads regarding AV123.

http://www.tweakcityaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=459

http://www.tweakcityaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=571

http://www.tweakcityaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=792

This one is at least "R" rated:

http://www.tweakcityaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=564

Anyway ... if anyone cares to visit Tweak City Audio's forum, you can learn first hand about how much "lid" is being kept on the "story".

 

[m-fine]

If I was reinstated over 3 months ago that would have been before I was ever banned! You banned me for a week in late January, after Mark closed AV123's forum and I said it would look bad, and in mid February you banned me a again with the message that the ban was for good, experation "never".

I have not heard anything from you since (barring the messages up and back for the next day or two), and I have not received any messages from TCA indicating that my status had changed. If I am not still permanently banned this is news to me.

If you are going to falsely accuse someone of lying, try to at least get some of your facts straight.

 

[craigsub]

If I was reinstated over 3 months ago that would have been before I was ever banned! You banned me for a week in late January, after Mark closed AV123's forum and I said it would look bad, and in mid February you banned me a again with the message that the ban was for good, experation "never".

I have not heard anything from you since (barring the messages up and back for the next day or two), and I have not received any messages from TCA indicating that my status had changed. If I am not still permanently banned this is news to me.

If you are going to falsely accuse someone of lying, try to at least get some of your facts straight.

Let us review. This thread offering to you and another forum member the opportunity to develop some products for Tweak City was opened on 2-15.

Welcome Matt Fine and Seth "Stereodude" as design engineers thread

I am not sure about this, but is not 2-16 the day AFTER 2-15 ?

I am pretty sure it is. The thread, by the way, was an attempt at levity. You should try it sometime instead of going from forum to forum with conspiracy theories. Really, give it a try.

I am also reasonably certain that both February 15 and February 16 are mid February.

Now ... speaking of facts ... How can a rational person look at all the threads on Tweak City and then make a statement that I am trying to keep a "lid on the story?"

No, Matt, I don't expect an answer from you. It was a rhetorical question.

 

[billy p]

Why are you guys airing out your laundry here!!

 

[nhpm510]

Cory-my take on reader's digest version

Company went from higher margin products to lower mass market approach.

Mark bet big in Columbia and lost his *** converting a furniture factory into a speaker factory and due to a fluctuating US dollar. In the meantime, he lightened up in China. Mark thought he could make the LS for a profit, but is probably giving away money every time he delivers one. Columbia never made near initial expectations and margins went south.

Add Columbia build up+the yields being NO WHERE near estimates+trying to satisfify all + living large+ and falling behind on lots + issues with QC, crappy part substitutions in China for the big electronics return, ergo ALL = Major MLS train de-railment.


AV123 is probably going to survive, but in a smaller way and with reduced product line. MLS is a good guy who is digging himself a whole his body is not able to climb out of.

He tried to hit one out of the park, but went down swinging, and the fans are just as shocked and in disbelief. But the old slugger will be going back to spring training and trying and get in shape for next season.

PM

 

[m-fine]

Why are you guys airing out your laundry here!!

Unfortunately Craig came here and called me a liar.

One last post I HOPE to defend myself against his accusations.

My last post on the TCA forum was on Friday 2/13, and I was banned that evening and all my posts going back to January were deleted. Craig and I exchanged a couple PM's on the AV123 forum on 2/14 (because I was banned at TCA and could not log in there) and there were a few posts on AVS. That was our last communication. I was never hired as a design engineer on 2/15, the situation was never discussed with me, and I assure everyone I would never work for Craig for obvious reasons. As for 2/16, that would be Monday morning when I returned to my office and deleted TCA from my favorites and deleted the password and cookies from the browser. So my account hit TCA on the 16th, what does that prove? That you never banned me?

Anyway, I have stopped by the TCA forum every now and then with no browser cookies to view the train wreck in the ls-9 thread as a guest after receiving private emails pointing me to the goings on there. I did not see any announcements that my banishment had been revoked, or anything that would make me think that it was or that I would give me reason to try logging in to look for a private message (I would have received an email had anyone sent me a PM anyway). If I had seen it I would have probably respectfully declined reinstatement anyway.

This is the truth and the entire truth. My apologies to the locals whose forum has been stained by this BS.

P.s. Craig, I am going to have to ask that you add a disclaimer to that thread welcoming me as an engineer that makes it 100% clear that I DO NOT work for you or TCA and never have, nor has there ever been any discussion of me working for you or any offers of employment or requests for employment ever made on any occasion. I am sure it was a joke to you, a way to get your jabs in a place where I could not respond, but clearly not everyone reading that thread understands that.

 

[craigsub]

Why are you guys airing out your laundry here!!

Billy p ... How to put this in polite terms.

I was dragged into this morass by M-fine. I did not ask to be dragged into it. I would be happy if the mods here deleted both his post and my response.

However, when someone deliberately posts inflammatory and inaccurate information, and knows he is doing so, a response is warranted.

 

[Adam]

And so it continues...

BTW, I'm having trouble caring less. Nothing personal against you two fellas. I totally understand what it's like trying to make your point when two people disagree on the facts. I make the joke, though, because while it probably seems very important to you guys, I wonder how many people really care who said what or when who was banned in some other forum. Then again, I'm a sheltered little AH...others here get around more than me.

 

[craigsub]

Unfortunately Craig came here and called me a liar.

One last post I HOPE to defend myself against his accusations.

My last post on the TCA forum was on Friday 2/13, and I was banned that evening and all my posts going back to January were deleted. Craig and I exchanged a couple PM's on the AV123 forum on 2/14 (because I was banned at TCA and could not log in there) and there were a few posts on AVS. That was our last communication. I was never hired as a design engineer on 2/15, the situation was never discussed with me, and I assure everyone I would never work for Craig for obvious reasons. As for 2/16, that would be Monday morning when I returned to my office and deleted TCA from my favorites and deleted the password and cookies from the browser. So my account hit TCA on the 16th, what does that prove? That you never banned me?

Anyway, I have stopped by the TCA forum every now and then with no browser cookies to view the train wreck in the ls-9 thread as a guest after receiving private emails pointing me to the goings on there. I did not see any announcements that my banishment had been revoked, or anything that would make me think that it was or that I would give me reason to try logging in to look for a private message (I would have received an email had anyone sent me a PM anyway). If I had seen it I would have probably respectfully declined reinstatement anyway.

This is the truth and the entire truth. My apologies to the locals whose forum has been stained by this BS.

P.s. Craig, I am going to have to ask that you add a disclaimer to that thread welcoming me as an engineer that makes it 100% clear that I DO NOT work for you or TCA and never have, nor has there ever been any discussion of me working for you or any offers of employment or requests for employment ever made on any occasion. I am sure it was a joke to you, a way to get your jabs in a place where I could not respond, but clearly not everyone reading that thread understands that.

Matt ... You entered into this thread with this statement ...

On a final note, I got banned for life from Craig's forum for saying people have a right and responsibility to speculate about AV123's financial health. Looks like he was not able to keep the lid on the story for too long though.

Just as occured on AVS, you opened with an unprovoked attack. All anyone needs to do is read this thread, and I never mentioned you at a single time.

 

[craigsub]

And so it continues...

BTW, I'm having trouble caring less. Nothing personal against you two fellas. I totally understand what it's like trying to make your point when two people disagree on the facts. I make the joke, though, because while it probably seems very important to you guys, I wonder how many people really care who said what or when who was banned in some other forum. Then again, I'm a sheltered little AH...others here get around more than me.

You make a good point. You should have a hard time caring less.

You seem to have a good sense of humour. If you want a good chuckle, check out this thread about AV123. It is not mean ... just funny.

http://www.tweakcityaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=564

 

[Adam]

Wow, that's a whole other world over there. This place is like a convent compared to your forum.

 

[craigsub]

Wow, that's a whole other world over there. This place is like a convent compared to your forum.

Our Adult Swim is a pretty divergent group of threads. As it says, almost anything goes.

There are, of course, dedicated audio threads, with more moderation.

The entire AV123 drama has been ... interesting.

 

[TjMV3]

Someone seems rather dickish.

Good thing I didn't quote/copy anything that would cause a whirlwind of confusion

 

[craigsub]

Someone seems rather dickish.

Good thing I didn't quote/copy anything that would cause a whirlwind of confusion

That dickish stuff gets people everytime. And this place needs better smilies.

 

[m-fine]

Craig, thank you for deleting that thread. A simple disclaimer would have been fine, but I appreciate that you took some action.

FWIW, I created a m-fine2 account to post my own disclaimer, but since it is not needed, feel free to delete that account.

 

[Alex2507]

If you want a good chuckle, check out this thread about AV123. It is not mean ... just funny.

http://www.tweakcityaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=564

All that talk of monkey f^%&ing has me a little excited.