Yet another "help me pick a Blu-Ray player" thread

D

Darel

Enthusiast
OK, here's the deal. I put together my home theater system about ten years ago and have been satisfied with it ever since. Then, my 32" Sharp CRT decided DVDs looked better in balck and white, so I bought a Samsung 40" A630 at the Circuit City going-out-of-business sale. As these things tend to go, I soon decided it's time to retire my trusty Panasonic A-110 DVD player for Blu-Ray. Problem is, I'm behind the power curve in HT knowledge now, and frankly reading you guys' posts is a lot like deciphering ancient Mayan to me.

So, I have it narrowed down to a couple of players. Please tell me what will and will not work with my system. Currently I have:

Samsung A630 TV
Panasonic A-110 DVD
Kenwood AC-3 Digital receiver
NAD 514 CD player (currently inop)

My choices seem to be the Pannies 35 and 55, Pioneer BDP-51FD, or perhaps waiting for the new Oppo universal player to come out.

I love my Panny A110 and have never been disappointed by it, even for a first-generation player. I'd have no problem coming back to a Panasonic. Plus, everyone seems to speak very highly of them. In the end this is almost certainly where I'll end up, but I wanted a few opinions first.

Upconversion quality is huge for me, in fact it may be months before I get to see an actual BR disc on my BR player. CDs are equally important, as I love my NAD but can't promise myself I'll get it repaired anytime soon.

Thoughts?
Thank you very much!
Darel
 
J

jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
The Panasonics to come will be the 60 or 80 I believe. About a month's time or so. I am a big proponent of this brand for stand alone bluray playback. They are very good, well implemented, and I've even posted a shootout where it was the only player of six to pass all HQV tests. Their FW support is very good, and it better be, for Panasonic owns most of the important patents associated with Bluray.

However, methinks that the Oppo would be right up your alley. Or perhaps some Denon(?), if they aren't still overpriced (using half-disabled receiver chips, because they couldn't wait forever to have lesser chips in order to get the player out).

Whaddya think? :cool:

edit: ok, I looked at the Denons. It seems only the 3800 has Realta (which should be really sweet) but very pricey, and I'd probably just upgrade my display with that kind of money. OTOH I'd still expect good VP from the 2500 going by my knowledge and experiences with Denon.

But, the Oppo seems to be the better value, with Anchor Bay processing.
 
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D

Darel

Enthusiast
Thanks! My biggest concern with the Oppo is buying a player before all the bugs are worked out. But I can get over that, I think. Plus, then I'm buying right when its' price is highest and the likelihood of finding a used/demo unit is nil.

Do the Panasonics have issues with CD playback? I don't own anything other than CD or straight-up DVD, so I don't need it to play everything under the sun.
 
Pyrrho

Pyrrho

Audioholic Ninja
OK, here's the deal. I put together my home theater system about ten years ago and have been satisfied with it ever since. Then, my 32" Sharp CRT decided DVDs looked better in balck and white, so I bought a Samsung 40" A630 at the Circuit City going-out-of-business sale. As these things tend to go, I soon decided it's time to retire my trusty Panasonic A-110 DVD player for Blu-Ray. Problem is, I'm behind the power curve in HT knowledge now, and frankly reading you guys' posts is a lot like deciphering ancient Mayan to me.

So, I have it narrowed down to a couple of players. Please tell me what will and will not work with my system. Currently I have:

Samsung A630 TV
Panasonic A-110 DVD
Kenwood AC-3 Digital receiver
NAD 514 CD player (currently inop)

My choices seem to be the Pannies 35 and 55, Pioneer BDP-51FD, or perhaps waiting for the new Oppo universal player to come out.

I love my Panny A110 and have never been disappointed by it, even for a first-generation player. I'd have no problem coming back to a Panasonic. Plus, everyone seems to speak very highly of them. In the end this is almost certainly where I'll end up, but I wanted a few opinions first.

Upconversion quality is huge for me, in fact it may be months before I get to see an actual BR disc on my BR player. CDs are equally important, as I love my NAD but can't promise myself I'll get it repaired anytime soon.

Thoughts?
Thank you very much!
Darel
Since you are not planning on actually playing a Blu-Ray disc for several months, I recommend waiting on a player until you are ready to actually play a disc. Otherwise, if there is a problem, you will be past the easy return period for the player.

As for what will work with your system, if you want to play the new audio formats, your receiver must either have HDMI or multichannel analog inputs. If it does not have these, then you will have down-converted audio.

If you only have multichannel analog inputs (and no HDMI inputs) on your receiver, then you need a player that can decode the new audio formats and output them via multichannel analog.

If you decide you need a new receiver because of this, keep in mind that not all receivers with HDMI inputs can actually decode the new audio formats. Make sure you don't get stuck with something that cannot decode the new audio formats.

Given your concern about upconversion quality, you probably want to wait for the new Oppo, which, if the rumors are correct, will be great at that.
 
D

Darel

Enthusiast
I must really be missing a fundamental concept here - My Kenwood receiver is about 12 years old, but it's got DD AC-3 with digital coax and optical audio inputs - I thought that took me out of the realm of analog. My NAD plays through the receiver with the standard RCA jacks but I've been playing CDs on the A110 for a couple months now through the digital coax. Definitely no HDMI inputs. Is this still a concern? Will the Panasonic 35/55 BD players work for me? I'd probably go for one of those as soon as the 60/80s come out and drop the 35/55's price even more. What do I need to look for to determine if I need analog outs from a player?

And it's not that I'm not "planning" on playing a BD for a couple months, I'm just not going to rush out and replace my entire collection - it's got to do CD, DVD and BD justice as well. I just feel like I'm paying a lot of money for capabilities I'll never use with the OPPO, I'll never own an SACD, DVD-A, or any of the other audio formats unless something comes out to really render CDs obsolete (and all of my current CDs burn up in a horrible home theater fire). It sounds to me as long as I'm sticking with CD, at least for the distant future, any of the current crop of BD players can interface with my receiver.

Thanks!
Darel
 
mperfct

mperfct

Audioholic Samurai
If you are going to be using analog outs, I'd get either the Pioneer 51fd or wait for one of their newer models...probably the 320fd.

Picture quality and sound quality are 2nd to none, and the 51fd has some awesome Wolfson DACs that are very highly regarded.

The Panasonic 35 wouldn't work, since it doesn't have analog outs. I'm not sure about the new, lower-end Panny, but I think it's pretty much the same as the 35 except it has Amazon VOD, whatever that's worth.

If you upgrade your receiver an HDMI capable model, that opens the door to use one of the lower end Panasonic/Pioneer/Sony models. I'd still take Pioneer for it's better SQ/PQ when it comes to upscaling DVDs. The difference in blu-ray SQ/PQ shouldn't be that noticeable, really.
 
lsiberian

lsiberian

Audioholic Overlord
If anyone in your house likes games there is always the PS3 too.

Just to throw something else out there.

If you get a blu-ray player or even if you don't. check out Netflix. It's really an amazing deal.
 
Pyrrho

Pyrrho

Audioholic Ninja
I must really be missing a fundamental concept here - My Kenwood receiver is about 12 years old, but it's got DD AC-3 with digital coax and optical audio inputs - I thought that took me out of the realm of analog. My NAD plays through the receiver with the standard RCA jacks but I've been playing CDs on the A110 for a couple months now through the digital coax. Definitely no HDMI inputs. Is this still a concern? Will the Panasonic 35/55 BD players work for me? I'd probably go for one of those as soon as the 60/80s come out and drop the 35/55's price even more. What do I need to look for to determine if I need analog outs from a player?

And it's not that I'm not "planning" on playing a BD for a couple months, I'm just not going to rush out and replace my entire collection - it's got to do CD, DVD and BD justice as well. I just feel like I'm paying a lot of money for capabilities I'll never use with the OPPO, I'll never own an SACD, DVD-A, or any of the other audio formats unless something comes out to really render CDs obsolete (and all of my current CDs burn up in a horrible home theater fire). It sounds to me as long as I'm sticking with CD, at least for the distant future, any of the current crop of BD players can interface with my receiver.

Thanks!
Darel
The new high resolution digital audio formats are not sent via optical or coaxial digital. They only go via HDMI. If they are first converted to multichannel analog, then you can use that, if your receiver can accept multichannel analog.

SACD and DVD-Audio are high resolution formats, but so are some of the new surround formats that are on Blu-Ray. If you want to be able to hear the new soundtracks, then you cannot use the "old" digital connections that your receiver uses. Here is a link to a list of the audio formats possible on Blu-Ray:

http://www.blu-ray.com/faq/#bluray_audio_codecs

Please note, the words "mandatory" and "optional" refer to players' ability to deal with the format, NOT WHAT IS REQUIRED TO BE ON THE DISCS.

However, if you don't want any sound that is better than regular Dolby Digital, you can probably use just about any Blu-Ray player with your receiver. But I would advise against that approach, as better audio formats are common on Blu-Ray, and we are not talking about that much money to get them. New receivers that can deal with the new formats are coming in ever cheaper varieties.

My advice is to do a bit of research on the matter before you buy.
 
D

Darel

Enthusiast
(He sits typing, and running his hands through his sweaty hair in great frustration...)

OK, I spent a good hour or so today searching this site and the internet. I used to think I was pretty well up on home theater setups. I researched for almost a year before buying my Vandersteens and my Panasonic A110 and neither has ever disappointed me. I still cannot decipher what all I need to make this damn TV work correctly and I don't grasp the first thing about why I have to take a digital source (Blu-ray), using a digital cable, and processed through a digital receiver, and make sure it's outputting in analog. Let me lay out for you exactly what I have here and perhaps someone can explain this as though I were a four-year-old, because evidently since I first got into HT that's what I've regressed to.

The recevier is a Kenwood 1080VR, DD, says right on the front "full digital decoding". After searching around I understand receivers right around my time frame (1997 or so) were hit or miss as to whether they could support 640kbps or not through the digital optical input. I did find one poster in a forum who said his 1080VR worked fine with 640 Kbps DD.

I understand I will not be able to use HDMI output because when my receiver was made it wasn't even invented yet. However, does this also automatically mean I need a Blu-Ray player that has analog output, and that now I have to hook up my receiver through RCA jacks on the back? What does that do to sound and picture quality? How will it compare with my current DVD's SQ & PQ? Do you get any sort of 5.1 sound out of it? Will this be any sort of an upgrade at all?

I am beginning to get extremely frustrated with this whole deal. I brought the new TV home and was immediately disappointed in the picture. Oh, yeah, and I can only watch it in 4:3 with my satellite box. And the satellite picture is barely watchable (horrendous PQ) through the coax input, current DVD uses the sole S-vid, neither source has component or HDMI. OK, no problem. Replace the DVD with Blu-Ray so the cable box can use S-vid (although it'll still be 4:3), right? No. Now I find out in order to do that I either need to dumb down the signal or else buy a new receiver. And, all this time I'm going to be using it as a stop-gap until I get my NAD 514 Cd player fixed.

So, in order to get a TV for 50% off, I need to replace every component in a home theater system that I was perfectly satisfied with to begin with.

Someone, please give me some good news.

Darel
 
T

The Viking

Audioholic
The good news is that you're not in a hurry and can really figure out exactly what you want and what you need to make it happen. FWIW, I was also on the hunt for a bluray player and opted for the Pioneer.

Good luck!

Jason
 
Pyrrho

Pyrrho

Audioholic Ninja
(He sits typing, and running his hands through his sweaty hair in great frustration...)

OK, I spent a good hour or so today searching this site and the internet. I used to think I was pretty well up on home theater setups. I researched for almost a year before buying my Vandersteens and my Panasonic A110 and neither has ever disappointed me. I still cannot decipher what all I need to make this damn TV work correctly and I don't grasp the first thing about why I have to take a digital source (Blu-ray), using a digital cable, and processed through a digital receiver, and make sure it's outputting in analog. Let me lay out for you exactly what I have here and perhaps someone can explain this as though I were a four-year-old, because evidently since I first got into HT that's what I've regressed to.

The recevier is a Kenwood 1080VR, DD, says right on the front "full digital decoding". After searching around I understand receivers right around my time frame (1997 or so) were hit or miss as to whether they could support 640kbps or not through the digital optical input. I did find one poster in a forum who said his 1080VR worked fine with 640 Kbps DD.

I understand I will not be able to use HDMI output because when my receiver was made it wasn't even invented yet. However, does this also automatically mean I need a Blu-Ray player that has analog output, and that now I have to hook up my receiver through RCA jacks on the back? What does that do to sound and picture quality? How will it compare with my current DVD's SQ & PQ? Do you get any sort of 5.1 sound out of it? Will this be any sort of an upgrade at all?

I am beginning to get extremely frustrated with this whole deal. I brought the new TV home and was immediately disappointed in the picture. Oh, yeah, and I can only watch it in 4:3 with my satellite box. And the satellite picture is barely watchable (horrendous PQ) through the coax input, current DVD uses the sole S-vid, neither source has component or HDMI. OK, no problem. Replace the DVD with Blu-Ray so the cable box can use S-vid (although it'll still be 4:3), right? No. Now I find out in order to do that I either need to dumb down the signal or else buy a new receiver. And, all this time I'm going to be using it as a stop-gap until I get my NAD 514 Cd player fixed.

So, in order to get a TV for 50% off, I need to replace every component in a home theater system that I was perfectly satisfied with to begin with.

Someone, please give me some good news.

Darel
The bad news is, time marches on, and they make progress with better formats, so you need to do research every time you decide to buy home theater equipment if you want to get the most for your money. The good news is, time marches on, and they make progress with better formats, so you can get a better picture and better sound.

The "full digital decoding" of your receiver is no longer true, as there are new digital formats. And given that dts has been around a while on DVDs, it hasn't been true for a long time. But when it was made, it may have been true, so we can't say they were lying to you.

With a Blu-Ray player, with your equipment, the best way to hook it up would be with HDMI for video straight to the TV, and use something else to send the audio from the player to your receiver. (HDMI is capable of sending both audio and video, but, as noted, your receiver has no HDMI inputs, so you can't use it with your receiver.) With the video going via HDMI straight to the TV, if things are set up properly and if you view it at an appropriate viewing distance, you will get a noticeably better picture from BD than with DVD. How noticeable will depend upon exactly how big the screen is and how far you sit from it.

Now, your receiver cannot decode the new digital audio formats, nor can it even accept them digitally, because the new digital formats cannot be sent via optical or coaxial digital. Unfortunately, if I am correctly reading the manual for your receiver, it cannot accept multichannel analog either (just 2 channel stereo analog audio). This means that, with your receiver, you cannot hear the new audio formats properly decoded. So, if you are going to be using your current receiver, you will want to see if you can get a BD player that can convert audio to Dolby Digital (which you would hook up via optical or coaxial digital), or (unless the movie has as one of its options a DD soundtrack; many do, though I do not know if they all do) you will end up using 2 channel analog connections to your receiver, which could be processed with Dolby Pro Logic (DPL).

So, the upshot is this: You can use the receiver you now have and you will be able to hear the movie, but the sound will be degraded from what the discs are typically going to have. This means that, if you cannot afford a new receiver, you still can watch BD discs and have a better picture quality, but you will not get any sound advantage with your current gear, and might even be stuck with DPL in some cases. It should still sound good, but not as good as is possible. If you cannot afford a new receiver, you should not let this worry you too much, but if you can afford it, it would be a good idea to replace it. Unfortunately, the resale value of surround receivers is very low, because everyone else needs the new gear for the new sound, too.


Regarding your satellite picture quality, I get the impression that this is your first HDTV, and that previously you had a standard analog TV. Is that correct? If so, the satellite equipment you have is probably designed to work best with a standard TV, and will probably not give you an HD picture. However, it should be that it does not look much worse than a DVD on your TV. The first thing to do is read the manual for the TV and make sure you set it up properly, preferably with a test disc for this purpose, so that you can get the best picture possible from your current gear.

If the adjustments do not solve your problem, you should start a new thread about this issue of picture quality, and someone else might be able to help you. I do not use satellite, so I would be the wrong person to try to walk you through much with it.
 
D

Darel

Enthusiast
Thank you very much!

I've already spent a couple of hours with Video Essentials. I'm happy with the DVD PQ. It's the TV input that's kiling me. And, as I've said before, I don't care about TV but it's terrible. Been through all the manuals and settings, and based on what I know I really think a big part of it is just the fact I'm using coax and the upgraded PQ of the TV is basically showing me everything I'm missing.

Back to Blu-Ray - So, as I understand it, since most Blu-ray player's don't have digital outputs and digital coax and optical inherently cannot support higher audio formats, if I find a player that physically has said outputs it should downgrade the audio signal to something my receiver can accept, correct?

Although, looking through pictures, I see the BD35 has an optical out too...
 
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AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I put my vote in for the new upcoming Oppo BD Universal player.

I already have the Denon DVD-3800BDCI & an Oppo SACD/DVD-A player, but this new Oppo universal player gets me a little excited.:D
 
Pyrrho

Pyrrho

Audioholic Ninja
Thank you very much!

I've already spent a couple of hours with Video Essentials. I'm happy with the DVD PQ. It's the TV input that's kiling me. And, as I've said before, I don't care about TV but it's terrible. Been through all the manuals and settings, and based on what I know I really think a big part of it is just the fact I'm using coax and the upgraded PQ of the TV is basically showing me everything I'm missing.

Back to Blu-Ray - So, as I understand it, since most Blu-ray player's don't have digital outputs and digital coax and optical inherently cannot support higher audio formats, if I find a player that physically has said outputs it should downgrade the audio signal to something my receiver can accept, correct?

Although, looking through pictures, I see the BD35 has an optical out too...
Glad to hear to have a test disc. In that case, you might want to contact the satellite company and see about an upgrade. Or, if you don't want it much, you might instead try an old fashioned antenna, as you might be able to pick up digital stations in your area. That is how I watch TV, and HD looks great with it. In fact, I have heard of cable and satellite companies compressing the signal more, so that free broadcast TV is likely to look better than what you can pay to get.

For advice on an antenna, see:

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html

http://www.antennaweb.org/aw/welcome.aspx


Back to BD. Most BD players do have one or both of the old fashioned digital connections that are compatible with your receiver. However, they cannot output the new formats that way; just the same stuff that can be output from a regular DVD player. And I have no idea if they are or are not commonly capable of converting to DD. However, all BD discs are required to have DD, dts, or PCM, and may have in addition to one (or more) of those, the new superior high resolution formats. If that PCM that is required is two channel, then sound could be output via optical or coaxial cable, though if it is dts, you will be out of luck with your receiver, and will need to use stereo analog connections.

Here is something that you might want to read, though it will not answer your specific question:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blu-ray#Codecs

I recommend looking for a new receiver at the same time you look for a BD player, or after you get a BD player. You don't need a new receiver until you have a BD player, so getting it now is unnecessary, and, like with the BD player, you don't want to get it too early, just in case there is a problem with it that makes you want to return it. But, you never have to upgrade your receiver if you don't want to do so; like I said before, you will be able to hear the movies with what you have now, just not with the best possible sound. And as far as that goes, it probably would not be worth upgrading the receiver anyway unless you have some pretty good speakers.
 
D

Darel

Enthusiast
Pyrrho,
Thanks again. As I see it then, I will be able to physically hear a BD player through my system until such time as I want to upgrade my receiver, just not to it's best quality.

I have a full set of Vandersteens (2Ce front/VCC-1 center/1Cs for surround, and yes, SWMBO lets me get away with having full floorstanding speakers for surrounds) so while some may disagree I think I've got a decent set of drivers. The "cheap" link in my system has always been the receiver but to me it's still always been very impressive for being cheap Japanese electronics, and beating that, it has been 100% rock-solid reliable since I've owned it, going on 11 years now.

I think my plan, then, will be to shop for the BD player I want - receiver regardless - and then upgrade my receiver after that. Maybe I'll get another year out of my receiver, maybe I'll be happy with what it puts out as-is (though I doubt it). Still waiting on a good release date for the new Oppo - if it's too far out, then I'll probably go with the Pioneer 51FD, though admittedly I still have some shopping to do.

Thanks again for all the advice, I really appreciate it!

Darel
 
T

The Viking

Audioholic
My Pio just landed courtesy of UPS, though I probably won't be able to get it up and running until the weekend. I'll be using HDMI to my Sony HDTV and 5.1 analog to my Denon 3805. A new receiver is on the horizon, but I have some gear to sell of first.

Jason
 
D

Darel

Enthusiast
That is a good deal, but still out of my price range, especially since it'd be all in one shot and not spread out by buying separately.
 
Pyrrho

Pyrrho

Audioholic Ninja
Pyrrho,
Thanks again. As I see it then, I will be able to physically hear a BD player through my system until such time as I want to upgrade my receiver, just not to it's best quality.

Correct.


I have a full set of Vandersteens (2Ce front/VCC-1 center/1Cs for surround, and yes, SWMBO lets me get away with having full floorstanding speakers for surrounds) so while some may disagree I think I've got a decent set of drivers. The "cheap" link in my system has always been the receiver but to me it's still always been very impressive for being cheap Japanese electronics, and beating that, it has been 100% rock-solid reliable since I've owned it, going on 11 years now.

I think your approach of having spent much more on speakers than a receiver is a good one, and one that I have done myself. Your speakers matter much more to the sound than the receiver, provided that the receiver is capable of adequately driving the speakers in question. (And just try to find, at any price, a speaker with a frequency response as flat as your "cheap" receiver, or with distortion as low.) Also, when new formats come out, you can keep your speakers and upgrade the receiver, so money spent on speakers isn't "wasted". Most people, however, seem to spend too little on their speakers and too much on their receiver, probably because it is easier to quantify features and power than it is to quantify better sound.

I have speakers that retail for well over $6000 (SVS subwoofers and Aurum Cantus [U.S. version] speakers), and I used to drive them with a receiver that retailed for about $600. I wanted additional features, so I bought a receiver that retails for about $1600. It sounds the same, unless I engage a new feature that affects the sound. If my speakers were inefficient or a difficult load, the new receiver could make an audible difference, as it puts out about twice the power of the old one. But the old one put out enough power for my speakers to play louder than I ever wanted it.


I think my plan, then, will be to shop for the BD player I want - receiver regardless - and then upgrade my receiver after that. Maybe I'll get another year out of my receiver, maybe I'll be happy with what it puts out as-is (though I doubt it). Still waiting on a good release date for the new Oppo - if it's too far out, then I'll probably go with the Pioneer 51FD, though admittedly I still have some shopping to do.

Thanks again for all the advice, I really appreciate it!

Darel

You are welcome. Since the pre-release Oppo BD player is out for testing, it should not be much longer before it is actually released. I am very happy with my Oppo DVD player, so I am waiting to see what the Oppo BD player will be like before getting a BD player myself.
 
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