Warp's Build Thread...

[Matt34]

If Kevin (the owner) wasn't so backed up I'd really be interested in these. I think one in a properly vented enclosure would be all that I would need.

 

[annunaki]

Bump

Any more updates here Warp? I am very interested in your results.

 

[WmAx]

Yes, please, more updates Warp!

But I think I know the result beforehand. The TC Sounds drivers are limited by Warp's weak amplifiers(I mean, 2000 watts is a lot of power, but not to TC-2000, and especially not to TC-3000 drivers which have even more power and excursion capacity). The Mael-X 18", even though it's motor is probably far more limited thermally and more limited in excursion, is likely more efficient by a few dBs, leading to higher output with any given input power range. As a result, even if the TC 15" 3000 driver can out perform or match the larger diameter Mael X 18" potentially, it can not be realized without buying a relatively expensive amplifier that can output about 5000 watts.

-Chris

 

[Warpdrv]

Good morning gents....

Ok guys.... I have had the opportunity to get my Mal-X's up and running, let me say the search is over for me to find the right drivers for this huge room. I am very happy with the SQ and output.

Now WmAx, avaserfi, annunaki and I like to toss around power capabilities, excursion, linearity all the time and rightly so as a very capable driver will have great output and stay clean, but that isn't the whole story of a driver. The TC-2000 and TC-3000 motors have a high BL and huge inductance and is not very flattering for response in the upper bass, I did not prefer this missing response. They are much more powerful and proficient in the low and mid bass, but didn't cut the mustard for me for that upper bass, and don't blend with my mains as well, I would suggest these drivers more if you have mains that reach lower and are more proficient in the upper bass band so you can crossover lower.

The TC-2000's sealed BTW are a perfect match with a bridged 2502, I'm getting full excursion on that driver and extreme output sealed. I'm not running them at full output of the amp, they will hard bottom. I found out with a Revo the hard way, that you still need a highpass filter in place, she came in for a rough landing and dented the cone, still works perfectly and I massaged the cone back into shape. The TC-3000 is a whole different story, but I haven't played around with that driver yet so I won't waste anyone's time on it. The TC-Drivers are great, powerful, clean and high output but, the high inductance and high BL makes doesn't give them the best upper bass, but for sure they are low bass winners, kick in the chest and punchy.

Now the Mal-X's haven't been measured but they are very very smooth throughout the entire bass range, but they definitely have an advantage in the upper bass and sound much more like the JL F112, very articulate. They are not heavy handed in one general area, but more evenly balanced throughout the entire range, which I respect alot, I'm not EQ'ing the down low very much and still getting good output down to 16-17hz in that big room, with a nice smooth response from top to bottom. I am running a single TC-2000 with them for now until I get my 3rd driver up and running, maybe I'll swap that for the TC-3000 ti cone instead. I am crossing over at 100hz and everything is just so seemless. I have crossed them over at 60, 80, 100, and 150hz and every one still gives me great smooth response in that room, and can be eq'd flat but I found that 100hz was just the best for me with these drivers.


With the boxes I built, they are already sized appropriately at 6 cu ft internal, so I didn't stuff the boxes, I chose to line the inside with egg crate foam to help break up any back wave.

Anyways, here are some pics for you guys...

Here's an pic so you guys have an idea of how large a room I have to work with, I know its not an ideal place for this type of thing, I am working at it slowly, but I don't do my critical listening in this room. Oh, also one of the drivers had a loose dust cap, so I peeled it and re-glued it back on with a 2 part epoxy and its perfect now. DIYcable offered to replace the driver, but I wasn't concerned about this and just fixed it here.

Mal-X with TC-2000

Mal-X with Revo (you can see where I bottomed the Revo)

Response before and after EQ

 

[WmAx]

So, the 15" TC's are more powerful in the low end? Just trying to clarify...

As for inductance. You do realize, of course, the JL W7 at least as high inductance as the TC units. The difference is, the W7 is EQed out to a linear upper bass response, and cabinet is very small, which means it's easy to control the internal behavior of spurious noise, xover breach resonance, etc.. If you properly EQ the TC, say with a dedicatd parametric, the result will be similar, but you would also need to use some fairly heavy/dense dampening in the larger size cabinets.

-Chris

 

[jamie2112]

I just found 3 JL W7 brand new for $500. This guys sister is selling them for him as he bought them and was called overseas. I should probably get them huh? Sorry to hijack Warp.....

 

[Warpdrv]

So are you saying the JL F112 and F113 are basically the same motor, but they don't sound the same, the F112 has better output and offers more upper bass then the F113, even JL is touting this info.

The TC's have a heavy natural hump and peak in the middle bass (40-50hz) In my particular room, stupid large - the 15's are not as capable in the lower end as the 18's. The 15's are working very very hard to achieve the output that the 18's are doing just barely working. The Mal-X's are working less to achieve the same SPL's - its a more efficient motor requiring less amp to get it moving.

Just by cone area alone the 18's offer the same displacement of 1.5 15" cones, thats obviously not including excursion. Kevin Haskins has stated that the motor starts loosing strength at about 25-26mm and is about 30% down at 32-33mm, so they are pretty equivalent in excursion. I tried to work that upper bass on the TC's with EQ and just couldn't get it to do what these Mal-X's do naturally. I'm only here stating what I have heard in my room right from the driver, no eq on either sub, swapping over the speakon cable from sub to sub.

The guy running the ported TC-2000 tuned to 16hz and moved to the Mal-X had the same opinion of the natural upperbass performance.

 

[Warpdrv]

I just found 3 JL W7 brand new for $500. This guys sister is selling them for him as he bought them and was called overseas. I should probably get them huh? Sorry to hijack Warp.....

I would buy them.... do it... they really need quite an amp to drive them each. Are they the 12's or the 13's.... ?

 

[jamie2112]

I would buy them.... do it... they really need quite an amp to drive them each. Are they the 12's or the 13's.... ?

The 12's...............

 

[WmAx]

Jamie... that's a super bargain... plan and simple. $166 per 12W7? WOW.

-Chris

 

[WmAx]

So are you saying the JL F112 and F113 are basically the same motor, but they don't sound the same, the F112 has better output and offers more upper bass then the F113, even JL is touting this info.

Yes, they are the same motor type - of course they are different in so far as some variables - as JL uses an optimized motor for each size W7 that varies slightly from every other unit in the series, where as some companies will actually use the same exact motor on sever different size speakers in a line.

The TC's have a heavy natural hump and peak in the middle bass (40-50hz) In my particular room, stupid large - the 15's are not as capable in the lower end as the 18's.

To get the proper response, one would have to measure the response of the driver, then apply correction filter to only that driver, via a few parametric bands, to remove the peak and to bring up the upper response a little bit. Not at all difficult - but most people don't b

The 15's are working very very hard to achieve the output that the 18's are doing just barely working. The Mal-X's are working less to achieve the same SPL's - its a more efficient motor requiring less amp to get it moving.

I was just wondering. I know that some of TC drivers, like the AXIS/3000 for example, are extremely conservatively rated. The mechanical limits are probably in the near 50mm one way range, and the power handling for the AXIS is incredible.I think it would intersting to do a comparison to see how close the 15" TC3000/AXIS will come, with full potential power available to it, when compared to a driver with almost 50 percent more surface area available on it.

-Chris

 

[jamie2112]

Ha ha the girl I am buying the JL W7 from just raised the price. She got way too many calls and now wants more cash.....lame lame lame

 

[Warpdrv]

Yes, they are the same motor type - of course they are different in so far as some variables - as JL uses an optimized motor for each size W7 that varies slightly from every other unit in the series, where as some companies will actually use the same exact motor on sever different size speakers in a line.

It was just interesting to me that the F112 just has a more balanced sound throughout the range, makes me really appreciate its capabilities.

To get the proper response, one would have to measure the response of the driver, then apply correction filter to only that driver, via a few parametric bands, to remove the peak and to bring up the upper response a little bit. Not at all difficult - but most people don't b

I agree, but sometimes its not possible to make a transducer do something it just does not normally want to do. I tried to use the EQ to add more to the upper bass to the TC but couldn't get it to budge, maybe the SMS is just an inferior unit to try to apply that, but I atleast made an effort toward it. I did attempt this with just the single TC2000 all alone on the system.

I was just wondering. I know that some of TC drivers, like the AXIS/3000 for example, are extremely conservatively rated. The mechanical limits are probably in the near 50mm one way range, and the power handling for the AXIS is incredible.I think it would intersting to do a comparison to see how close the 15" TC3000/AXIS will come, with full potential power available to it, when compared to a driver with almost 50 percent more surface area available on it.

-Chris

I agree with you here Chris, the TC drivers have incredible excursion and they truly flex their muscles and you can see it. I don't think the design of the driver is the same as the Mal-X, the TC's will go all the way to the end and just bottom out, where the Mal-X was designed to really come in for more of a soft landing, stretching the surround to the limits will increase the resistance of the motor and make it harder for it to bottom as hard. I really really like the sound of the Mal-X, its very clean, articulate and balanced. Truly a big hit in my books


P.S. if you are interested, I just got a replacement midrange driver for one of my Paradigm Sig S4's, I have been driving my system very hard with the 1000ASP IcePower modules, and the VC was getting hot and starting to melt the protective coating, so I was starting to get that smell, so I figured before it takes a complete dump I would replace it. The driver was $200.00
Its really a beefy driver, but its a 2 1/2 way so it works in conjunction with the woof.

I know you like to play around with these things, If you were interested in measuring it, or playing around with it for a while your welcome to do so.

 

[WmAx]

the 15's are not as capable in the lower end as the 18's. The 15's are working very very hard to achieve the output that the 18's are doing just barely working. The Mal-X's are working less to achieve the same SPL's - its a more efficient motor requiring less amp to get it moving.

Indeed. That's why I wonder about the TC3000. If it is exactly the same as the AXIS, then the 2000-2500 watts your amp can create, can just barely drive the AXIS to about 55 to 60 percent of it's LINEAR x-max, which is very conservatively rated. And from experience, I can tell you that sometimes amp clipping can seem like bottoming - but there is no way to bottom an AXIS with that little bit of power. The mechanical limit, in addition, is well beyond the x-max range on the AXIS, in around 46-50mm one way at minimum. In addition, TC states that they use special construction to give the AXIS far more thermal handling as compared to the REVO/TC2000.

So, I wonder.... put 6000 watts to the AXIS 15" and compare it to a Mal-X 18", and I would find such a comparison very interesting. The Mal-x wold have far less thermal handling I expect, and how would the end result turn out, even though the 18" has the considerable surface area advantage?

-Chris

 

[WmAx]

I know you like to play around with these things, If you were interested in measuring it, or playing around with it for a while your welcome to do so.

Thank you for the offer. However, I have no suspicion that this driver would offer a specific function that I need to make measuring it worthwhile.

-Chris

 

[Warpdrv]

Indeed. That's why I wonder about the TC3000. If it is exactly the same as the AXIS, then the 2000-2500 watts your amp can create, can just barely drive the AXIS to about 55 to 60 percent of it's LINEAR x-max, which is very conservatively rated. And from experience, I can tell you that sometimes amp clipping can seem like bottoming - but there is no way to bottom an AXIS with that little bit of power. The mechanical limit, in addition, is well beyond the x-max range on the AXIS, in around 46-50mm one way at minimum. In addition, TC states that they use special construction to give the AXIS far more thermal handling as compared to the REVO/TC2000.

So, I wonder.... put 6000 watts to the AXIS 15" and compare it to a Mal-X 18", and I would find such a comparison very interesting. The Mal-x wold have far less thermal handling I expect, and how would the end result turn out, even though the 18" has the considerable surface area advantage?

-Chris

True, I would be interested in knowing the differences, and guess what, that just may be whats going to happen here....

I'm hosting a Subwoofer GTG on Sat Feb 28th... There will be a large number of DIY attendees. It should be a fantastic shootout for comparisons sake. We'll have the power and equipment to do some measuring with REW. We'll see how things pan out.

A list of some of the stuff projected to show up......

SVS Ultra -13 TJHUB (AVS Member - local)

Rythmik 15 - merrymaid520 (AVS Member - local)

Ricci - XXX-18" & LMS-5400 18", SDX 15, QSC PL 9.0, Crown CE4000 (AVS Member - Louisville KY)

24" cube with an A15H and pair of 18" PR's - John Janowitz (AESpeakers) Green Bay, WI
Dual 18" vented subs with TD18H+ woofers, pair of the Lab Gruppen PLM 10000Q'- John Hanitz (Elite Audio) Eau Claire, WI ?

And of coarse my Junk...
3 - Mal-Xs 6^3 Sealed
2 -TC2000 3.5^3 Sealed
1 -TC3000
1 - JL Audio F112

 

[jamie2112]

The Labgruppen amps are freakin incredible. I used those with a 28 box V-dosc rig for 6 years touring with 311. Those are incredible amps with major watts in a 30 pound package. The shootout just doesn't seem fair considering the guy is using those beasts. Me and 1 other guy could lift a rack of 6 LG amps with no problem at all. Once again amazing amps and VERY expensive. I would love to see what the dual 18s will sound like in a room instead of an arena....I wish I could attend your shootout Warp it sounds like a lot of fun.

 

[Warpdrv]

Thanks Jamie....

I'm not sure, we may just those amps for everything, if there are no objections.

It will make things alot easier then swapping out equipment. We'll see how things go.

I think it will be alot of fun to play the shootout, its not just all about output for me, I am really after how the drivers differ in SQ.

 

[WmAx]

Thanks Jamie....

I'm not sure, we may just those amps for everything, if there are no objections.

It will make things alot easier then swapping out equipment. We'll see how things go.

I think it will be alot of fun to play the shootout, its not just all about output for me, I am really after how the drivers differ in SQ.

Yeah, but to get truly accurate results of SQ, you need to do a level of analysis that just is not possible at such meetings as a practical limitation. That is, realize, 'my' standard of analysis is what I mean - which is of course not what a normal DIYer would ever consider practical.

Just listening in uncontrolled situations like this is making a conclusion with too many variables in place to make a confident conclusion.

I would EQ both to the same response, then record both at near field, then later mix the recordings back with a full range signal and listen over reference phones. For the listening test portion, anyways. For real time listening analysis, you need to EQ them identically, and have a rotation turntable behind an acoustic curtain that will place each sub in the same exact space.

My primary interest is a proper set of ground plane measurements.

-Chris

 

[ParadigmDawg]

I would just drink a lot of beer and have a blast with all the subs....