Handcuffed black man shot in the back by BART officer, sparks riots.

[darien87]

You're comments and insight are very well thought out and appreciated. It's always hard to step in anyone else's shoes, espcially so when there's emotionally driven issue such as this.

I guess my feelings on such matter retreat to a much more basic premise... probably one that's a lot harsher, more unsympathetic, and probalby unpopular. For me, I don't care who you are. I don't care if you're black. I don't care if your're white. I don't care if you're Asian, Mexican... whatever. If you behave outside the bounds of society's rules... if you impinge upon other's rights, safety, and wellbeing... if you're basically up to no good most of the time... then I just don't really care about what happens to you.

That may be harsh, but at some point... if you're recklessly runing from the cops endangering anyone who happens to be in your path... if you're rioting, burning down cars and business... if you break into someone's home.... whatever... at some point, you no longer should have the same rights as I do and such, whatever ultimate price is paid is just the way it goes. For me, it's not racial at all. I was mugged by a black man while in college and hit in the face with a pipe getting out of my car in a parking garage where I interned. I got stabbed by a "normal" looking white guy when I was a bouncer trying to make extra money my senior year. Believe me, I wish the cops would've been right there when both of those things happened. If the cops would have beat the **** out of either of them I would not have cared. If either would have struggled, fought back, resisted and ended up getting shot... you know what... that would have been okay too. Once you cross that line and commit wrongs against other... I guess I just don't care what happens to you. At that point, you're a piece of sh*t and that transcends all race, gender, and cultural barriers.

No argument here. I have no problem with putting scum behind bars, and I think that prison's should perform capital punishment more often. But we're talking about a man that was already subdued and was shot and killed. Being a piece of crap should get you removed from society, but it shouldn't get you killed.

 

[MatthewB.]

hifihoney, this is in response to your post on page 3 (where you used my response as an example). No I don't approve of anyone getting shot especially in custody. I truly believe the gunshot was accidental by way of the officers immediate expression and the fact that no normal officer would shoot at anybody with two of his partners in such close proximity. They were kneeling literally a foot away from the gunshot. I also believe that Oscars actions lead to what happened. He was breaking probation by being out with other criminals assaulting passangers on a train, then he failed to follow directions by trying to get up (possibly to flee which is what he was convicted of before). If you follow the rules of society and follow what the police tell you, your chances of getting accidently shot diminish 100 fold. Then the officers were dealing with a drunk hostile crowd also escalating the situation. Sorry the punk got shot, sorry an officers life is ruined, but one less thug on the streets commiting crimes doesnt make me lose any sleep whatsoever.

 

[MatthewB.]

Now lets' look at the facts. Oscar was on probation for fleeing the police, armed robbery, drug dealing and tossing a loaded weapon in the air (trying to get rid of evidence) So what if the police neve found the gun because he tossed it in a bush, now say a small child found that gun and shot himself. Oscar had no concerns about anyone around him. While on probation he breaks his curfew, hangs with criminals and commits a crime. Hence why he was trying to escape. Yes the officer had an accidental discharge of his weapon, but my theory is, if Oscar had been folowing the rules of society, he would still be alive. He didn't Boo Hoo. He's dead, I could care less. Think the world is a better place without him. There are laws for a reason and one should follow them. If you break them, then chances are good police are going to be involved and if you don't follow the orders they give you, your chances of getting harmed or killed grows exponentially. We are all responsible for our actions. His led to his death and the officers led to his dismissal and possible prosecution.

 

[jonnythan]

Now lets' look at the facts. Oscar was on probation for fleeing the police, armed robbery, drug dealing and tossing a loaded weapon in the air (trying to get rid of evidence) So what if the police neve found the gun because he tossed it in a bush, now say a small child found that gun and shot himself.

The cops knew absolutely none of this.

And even if they did, it's absolutely not an excuse for murdering a subdued, unarmed man in the back.

Oscar had no concerns about anyone around him. While on probation he breaks his curfew, hangs with criminals and commits a crime. Hence why he was trying to escape. Yes the officer had an accidental discharge of his weapon, but my theory is, if Oscar had been folowing the rules of society, he would still be alive. He didn't Boo Hoo. He's dead, I could care less. Think the world is a better place without him. There are laws for a reason and one should follow them. If you break them, then chances are good police are going to be involved and if you don't follow the orders they give you, your chances of getting harmed or killed grows exponentially. We are all responsible for our actions. His led to his death and the officers led to his dismissal and possible prosecution.

Your lack of sympathy for a convicted criminal is understandable, but Oscar did not deserve to be killed. He had done his time and he was probably about to do more.

Cops are not judges, juries, or executioners. What happened to Oscar, despite his past, is quite simply a travesty. I mourn for Oscar because his life was taken in a manner that was grossly wrong.

I'm absolutely not comfortable with brushing off the murder of petty criminals as "who cares?" especially when the cop who killed said petty criminal had absolutely zero knowledge of the criminal's past. For all he knew, the person he shot was an upstanding citizen with zero criminal history.

So, who cares?

I do.

 

[MatthewB.]

I understand where your coming from, really I do, and your right the officers didn't know Oscars past. And your right his death although tragic, shows what can happen when bystanders interfere, a man does not follow diections and an officer mishandles his weapons. All three contributed to this mans death. You take out any of the three and Oscar would still be alive. But all three aligned perfectly that somebody was killed. It was a horrible accident, but an accident none the less. Now if the suspect had been a law abiding citizen who was being detained then shot, I may have a different view of all this. But the fact that the officer did not ask Oscar to assault others on a train, the police did not ask for runk bystanders to yell and throw items at the officer and the officers certainly did not ask Oscar to try and get up and escape. The officer saw a situation where things were quickly getting out of hand and felt the need to draw his primary weapon and while doing so it accidently went off. His family said he was a role model and good family man. I know of no role model who commits felonies instead of being home with his family.

 

[MatthewB.]

I also speak as one who was assaulted by an officer in my younger days. I was handcufed for a petty crime as a teenager and while handcuffed the officer kept calling me name after name and so finally I quipped, "That's not what your wife told me last night in bed." Well the officer did what any guy would do and punched me right in the stomach with my hands behind my back. Looking over if I should press charges on the cop, I though why? I was the one who committed the crime, I was the one who was a dumbarse (as the cop told me) and I was the one who back talked the cop and guess what, I was the one who deserved to get punched. Everything that happened was my fault and I took 100% blame for that. Now the situation is greatly different in Oscars case, but my point is, that some of the blame of this accident needs to fall on Oscar and not all of it on the officer.

 

[Rickster71]

I suppose this is the "Chicken and The Egg scenario.
What came first? The criminal sociopath, or the police using SWAT / Military type actions.

I keep wondering why I don't get beat up, or shot at by the police more often?
Oh that's right, I remember:
I'm home, too tired to stay up New Years Eve, too tired from working my *** off all week, volunteering in the local fire department, being a productive member of society.

 

[jonnythan]

I understand where your coming from, really I do, and your right the officers didn't know Oscars past. And your right his death although tragic, shows what can happen when bystanders interfere, a man does not follow diections and an officer mishandles his weapons. All three contributed to this mans death. You take out any of the three and Oscar would still be alive. But all three aligned perfectly that somebody was killed. It was a horrible accident, but an accident none the less. Now if the suspect had been a law abiding citizen who was being detained then shot, I may have a different view of all this. But the fact that the officer did not ask Oscar to assault others on a train, the police did not ask for runk bystanders to yell and throw items at the officer and the officers certainly did not ask Oscar to try and get up and escape. The officer saw a situation where things were quickly getting out of hand and felt the need to draw his primary weapon and while doing so it accidently went off. His family said he was a role model and good family man. I know of no role model who commits felonies instead of being home with his family.

I don't believe it was an accident.

The officer put away his taser and drew his firearm on a suspect that had been subdued and was pinned on the ground.

One of the primary rules of firearms is that you do not aim your weapon unless you are prepared to destroy whatever it's pointing at. Why would this officer draw his weapon, aim it at an unarmed person who was pinned on the ground, and put his finger on the trigger?

That was not an accident.

 

[jonnythan]

I also speak as one who was assaulted by an officer in my younger days. I was handcufed for a petty crime as a teenager and while handcuffed the officer kept calling me name after name and so finally I quipped, "That's not what your wife told me last night in bed." Well the officer did what any guy would do and punched me right in the stomach with my hands behind my back.

Well I wouldn't do that, and, IMO, that officer should have been convicted of assault.

 

[itschris]

No argument here. I have no problem with putting scum behind bars, and I think that prison's should perform capital punishment more often. But we're talking about a man that was already subdued and was shot and killed. Being a piece of crap should get you removed from society, but it shouldn't get you killed.

I guess the way I look at it is... sure... he could've got arrested... would've been let out eventually... and would've gone right back to what he was doing.

I'm sure someone loved him and they're in great despair right now, but at the same time, I just don't feel any sympathy for him. I don't. I think of the fear, the chaos, and harm he has caused in his life and I just don't feel bad for what happened.

I feel terrible for the debris he's left behind however. While his family hopefully never condoned the life of crime he chose, he's still a son to someone and that grief must be terrible. I feel sorry for the office as well because his life is forever changed as well.

But you raised a very good point about all this... espcially about the rioting. It does absolutely nothing but further cement long entrenched stereotypes and prejudice. There's just a lot of people watching that take place... the meaningless destruction and violence... just sit there and think to themselves... "black people... figures." That's the real harm, the real tragedy. There's a real danger when a small group propogates a lasting picture that's so far from the reality, yet stays burned in your head.

 

[MatthewB.]

jonnythan, how can yu feel it's not an accident. What officer would ever put his partners life in jeopardy by firing at somebody with his partner kneeling on the suspect (he was 1-2 feet away) The expression on his face directly afterwards is one of complete surprise and shock that it happened. And although he didn't follow rule number one while pulling the slide back on the weapon (he kept his finger on the trigger) you can see his hand slips while pulling the slide back and out of reflex his finger pulls the trigger. I do not think it was on purpose and if it were, I would then want the officer charged and convicted, but after watching the videos several times, you can clearly see that this was truly an accident. The escalating crowd also didn't help.
For those rioting, they show even more ignorance because how is commiting more crimes, destruction of property and bodily harm in any way showing respect to what happened to Oscar. If they want change they need to file complaints, write their state officials and enact change, the rioters are doing nothing but show how stupid mob mentality can be.

 

[jonnythan]

jonnythan, how can yu feel it's not an accident. What officer would ever put his partners life in jeopardy by firing at somebody with his partner kneeling on the suspect (he was 1-2 feet away) The expression on his face directly afterwards is one of complete surprise and shock that it happened. And although he didn't follow rule number one while pulling the slide back on the weapon (he kept his finger on the trigger) you can see his hand slips while pulling the slide back and out of reflex his finger pulls the trigger. I do not think it was on purpose and if it were, I would then want the officer charged and convicted, but after watching the videos several times, you can clearly see that this was truly an accident. The escalating crowd also didn't help.
For those rioting, they show even more ignorance because how is commiting more crimes, destruction of property and bodily harm in any way showing respect to what happened to Oscar. If they want change they need to file complaints, write their state officials and enact change, the rioters are doing nothing but show how stupid mob mentality can be.

He may not have pulled the trigger on purpose, but he certainly pulled his firearm and pointed it at a subdued man who posed no threat.

And even if it was an accident, he still needs to be charged and convicted.

 

[MatthewB.]

Agreed, but I think if they are going to riot, they need to wait till the verdict is read and all the facts of the case have come forth. And even then they should file complaints and ask for change, not riot. I also think the officer pulled the weapon not because the suspect was a threat, but because the bystanders were becoming one with them throwing stuff at officers and you see one walk up to an officer and punch him (he was the one promptly taken down in one of the videos and then you hear the shot behind them. The scene was quickly getting out of hand, then Oscar making things worse by trying to get up. It was a tense situation and one I hope never to be in, but can understand why the officer pulled his weapon, alas he did not pull it as instructed, but as adrenaline and a hostile situation growing, you have to ask yourself if you would make mistakes if being in the same situation. With so many stimulus going on all at once, it's easy to see how one could be confused.

 

[jonnythan]

My final thoughts on the subject:

Is society better off without Oscar Grant in it? Maybe.

But it's significantly worse off to have any free citizen taken from us in this way, by the people we trust to protect us and treat us fairly.

 

[itschris]

My final thoughts on the subject:

Is society better off without Oscar Grant in it? Maybe.

But it's significantly worse off to have any free citizen taken from us in this way, by the people we trust to protect us and treat us fairly.

Free citizen? Sure... a worthwhile one? A productive one? How about one who caused fear and pain to many and lived life perpetuating the ills of society.

I'm certainly not a cop, but I know a few. There's no training that can ever prepare you for the heat of the moment adrenalin, fear, and even panic that can be associated with a mob mentality. What about the others taunting the police and throwing things at them and threatening them. Everyone last one of them is just as big a peice of garbage who should be lucky they're not on the slab next to him.

I've simply grown tired of this mentality of sympathy for those who make the conscience decision, the choice, to due harm against others and society as a whole. I'll never understand why there's such concern for those who are lowest of the low in our society. In other countries, these people are pariahs. Here, we bloviate and even celebrate, sue and riot on their behalf, all adding to the degradation of our cuture and erosion of what bonds good people together.

 

[jinjuku]

Free citizen? Sure... a worthwhile one? A productive one? How about one who caused fear and pain to many and lived life perpetuating the ills of society.

Out of simple curiosity: Has anyone ever done a study where the extrapolate what a criminal of this category would cost society over their natural life time of committing crime and the judicial resources they take up?

 

[jonnythan]

Free citizen? Sure... a worthwhile one? A productive one? How about one who caused fear and pain to many and lived life perpetuating the ills of society.

That doesn't matter. He was a free man, legally released by the justice system. Society might be better off without Grant in it, but it's worse off for his life to have been taken this way.

 

[jinjuku]

Found one

A simple Google search yielded this link

Quoted from the paper:

1. $ 165,000 in victim costs per year of a criminal's career (about 35% attributable to tangible costs such as lost wages and medical bills and 65% attributable to the value of lost quality of life to victims);

2. the average career criminal annually adds $ 40,000 to the cost of the criminal justice system (including investigation, defense, incarceration, parole, and probation); and

3. the prisoner is not a productive member of society while incarcerated and, based on an average of eight years in prison, the total foregone earnings for a career criminal is $ 60,000 or $ 52,000 in present value terms.

Cohen concluded that juvenile delinquency between age 14 and 17 imposes $ 83,000 to $ 335,000 while an adult career criminal adds $ 1. 4 million. He concluded that the total external costs of a life of crime range from $ 1. 5 to $ 1. 8 million. Of this amount, about 25% is tangible victim costs, 50% lost quality of life, 20% criminal justice costs, and 5% offender productivity losses (Cohen, “The Monetary Value of Saving a High-Risk Youth,” Journal of Quantitative Criminology, Vol. 14, No. 1, 1998).

 

[jinjuku]

That doesn't matter. He was a free man, legally released by the justice system. Society might be better off without Grant in it, but it's worse off for his life to have been taken this way.

I believe he was on Parole and out after his curfew...

 

[jonnythan]

I believe he was on Parole and out after his curfew...

So what? So his life is forfeit? So it's OK for him to be executed by police officers? Police officers who had no idea he was on parole or had a curfew?

No, his life is not forfeit. No one deserves to be executed for being out after a curfew. When people of any sort are illegally killed by police officers, in the street, in front of crowds, while pinned face-down on the ground, we all lose.