Firearms discussion - hardware only, no politics

[Tomorrow]

Same bullet, different cartridge. A rifle chambered in 5.56 can fire both. A rifle chambered in .223 can only shoot .223. And considering military surplus is all 5.56, its the ONLY way to go.

I'm out of the '70's when it comes to shooting this caliber. So my guess would be that there were some subsequent, mild spec changes to mil-spec'ed ammo that caused this situation.

Thanks for the tip, Cpt. Here's an interesting discussion I found where nobody agrees, lol.

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080917183120AAYllvr

 

[itschris]

I'm out of the '70's when it comes to shooting this caliber. So my guess would be that there were some subsequent, mild spec changes to mil-spec'ed ammo that caused this situation.

Thanks for the tip, Cpt. Here's an interesting discussion I found where nobody agrees, lol.

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080917183120AAYllvr

You know it's funny... there are always those who like to read between the lines when it comes to this argument and the link you posted highlights this.

Yes... you can fire a 556 through a 223 weapon... doable... yes it will fire. The questions really though is should you. That answer is "no" for most applications. I would never fire a 556 through 223 only AR. Nowadays most AR's are chambered for 556, but there are many older models out there that are 223 specific. Again, you can shoot a 556 through it, but I certainly would not. Talk to any guy at the range who actually knows what he's talking about... and he'll tell you the same thing. My brother in law lives in Ohio and belongs to a private indoor/outdoor club gun club that is frequented by many current and retired military and LFE. These guys are the kind who don't talk a lot, and carry their gun case on wheels, and will typically pull out a few Barrett to go shooting. Some of these guys have shot 10's of thousands of rounds and they are very specific in their advice - no 556 through a 223 only weapon unless it's a solid single bolt action rifle that's typically way over built. Those are the guys I listen to.

 

[Tomorrow]

You know it's funny... there are always those who like to read between the lines when it comes to this argument and the link you posted highlights this.

Yes... you can fire a 556 through a 223 weapon... doable... yes it will fire. The questions really though is should you. That answer is "no" for most applications. I would never fire a 556 through 223 only AR. Nowadays most AR's are chambered for 556, but there are many older models out there that are 223 specific. Again, you can shoot a 556 through it, but I certainly would not. Talk to any guy at the range who actually knows what he's talking about... and he'll tell you the same thing. My brother in law lives in Ohio and belongs to a private indoor/outdoor club gun club that is frequented by many current and retired military and LFE. These guys are the kind who don't talk a lot, and carry their gun case on wheels, and will typically pull out a few Barrett to go shooting. Some of these guys have shot 10's of thousands of rounds and they are very specific in their advice - no 556 through a 223 only weapon unless it's a solid single bolt action rifle that's typically way over built. Those are the guys I listen to.

You know, this is the first time I've heard of the issue. I've noted in some places that it's said that .223 will blow up AR's. But I guess I would have to give the argument credibility to you and CptA. for logical reasons and I just discovered a similar warning on SAAMI. I DO believe that there must have been a mil-spec change since I was shooting this stuff, however, as they were indeed interchangeable back in the '70's.

Now, it just so happens that I have a ton of ammo from decades ago and can't remember its source. The head stamp has an L C 7 6, the only marking on it. (Lake City, 1976? .223 or 5.56?) Is there a way of ID'ing this old stuff? I can't seem to find a head stamp reference guide. Any info would be appreciated.

 

[itschris]

You know, this is the first time I've heard of the issue. I've noted in some places that it's said that .223 will blow up AR's. But I guess I would have to give the argument credibility to you and CptA. for logical reasons and I just discovered a similar warning on SAAMI. I DO believe that there must have been a mil-spec change since I was shooting this stuff, however, as they were indeed interchangeable back in the '70's.

Now, it just so happens that I have a ton of ammo from decades ago and can't remember its source. The head stamp has an L C 7 6, the only marking on it. (Lake City, 1976? .223 or 5.56?) Is there a way of ID'ing this old stuff? I can't seem to find a head stamp reference guide. Any info would be appreciated.

My brother in law just left this morning... but he might know. I'll shoot him an email on it.

Regarding the 223/556 thing... I doubt the AR will blow... it could. It's just something you probably shouldn't do. But either way, I've looked at literally 30 plus rifles over the past weeks and I have yet to come across any newer AR not chambered for 556 so I think it's less of an issue now.

 

[Cpt.America]

I've noted in some places that it's said that .223 will blow up AR's. But I guess I would have to give the argument credibility to you and CptA.

Nobody said that... you have it a bit backwards.

Chambered in 5.56 : Shooting 5.56 = OK
Chambered in 5.56 : Shooting .223 = OK
Chambered in .223 : Shooting 5.56 = possible KB
Chambered in .223 : Shooting .223 = OK

The 5.56 and .223 have the same physical dimensions, but the 5.56 is loaded to much higher pressures. Firing a cartridge at pressures higher than the chamber can hold, can create a KB in ANY firearm.

itchris:

Yes I have a 16" barrel, and my low pro gas block is right at 10", so it sits directly underneith the very end of the 10" rail. So to answer your question, yes the 10" rail goes beyond the mid length gas block, bust just barely covers it. I think the 10" is designed that way, so it just covers a mid-length gas system. DId you get a mid, carbine, or rifle length gas system? This will affect what rail you decide to go with.

 

[Cpt.America]

Thanks for the tip, Cpt. Here's an interesting discussion I found where nobody agrees, lol.

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080917183120AAYllvr

And for what its worth... i find "yahoo answers" to be the absolutly WORST place you can go for info. Nothing but bad info all over the place on every given subject.

 

[Tomorrow]

Nobody said that... you have it a bit backwards.

Chambered in 5.56 : Shooting 5.56 = OK
Chambered in 5.56 : Shooting .223 = OK
Chambered in .223 : Shooting 5.56 = possible KB
Chambered in .223 : Shooting .223 = OK

The 5.56 and .223 have the same physical dimensions, but the 5.56 is loaded to much higher pressures. Firing a cartridge at pressures higher than the chamber can hold, can create a KB in ANY firearm.

Nobody said that here. But there are a number of posts on the net that do report such a problem. I was relaying that information only...BUT also agreeing with you (as you listed above). I have nothing backwards and appreciate your information.

 

[Cpt.America]

Oh i see... I missread that. My apologies.

 

[Cpt.America]

Now, it just so happens that I have a ton of ammo from decades ago and can't remember its source. The head stamp has an L C 7 6, the only marking on it. (Lake City, 1976? .223 or 5.56?) Is there a way of ID'ing this old stuff? I can't seem to find a head stamp reference guide. Any info would be appreciated.

I can't say for sure, and wouldn't really know where to look, but I would GUESS, that it is 5.56.

 

[itschris]

Yes I have a 16" barrel, and my low pro gas block is right at 10", so it sits directly underneith the very end of the 10" rail. So to answer your question, yes the 10" rail goes beyond the mid length gas block, bust just barely covers it. I think the 10" is designed that way, so it just covers a mid-length gas system. DId you get a mid, carbine, or rifle length gas system? This will affect what rail you decide to go with.

I got the Rock River Arms CAR A4. I can't access any firearms sites from work or else I'd send you the link. The barrell is 16". I just went to drop off payment on the special order and got to measure it out on their rental RRA A4. The gas block starts at 7" from the upper and includes the delta ring in the measurement. I see quad rails that measure 9" and 10" and I'm wondering if the difference is the delta ring in that if replaces the delta ring in the assembly like the Troy does, it would be an extra inch in length as opposed to different rails that leave the delta ring intact and just begin from that point. I know 7" is too short for a rail, but I'm still deciding between the 10" and 12". There's no rush so I might just wait to get the rifle before I get all this stuff. it's just that supplies are getting harder and harder to come by.

 

[Adam]

You guys are giving me the itch, darn it.

Luckily, I'm too lazy to go out and shop. I might go pull out some of my collection and fondle them gently...

 

[itschris]

You guys are giving me the itch, darn it.

Luckily, I'm too lazy to go out and shop. I might go pull out some of my collection and fondle them gently...

It's really just bouncing from one obsession to the next. The stereo stuff is on the back burner for the time being and I'm just enjoying what I have. Now my energy is all spent thinking about my new AR and getting it all setup with the goodies. Once that's done, I'll move on to something else again. it's a vicious expensive cycle.

I did trade in one my custom built 1911's. I had about $1600 into the gun and never thought I'd get anything out of it on a trade, but this guy was absolutely crazy about it and gave $900 for it. While I love that gun, especially since it was built for me by Bob Cogan, I really had no use for it. To get almost a grand for it 10 years later made me feel it worth it. On one hand I was sad to see it go and in fact, I never thought I would get rid of it because I figured everyone would just keep offering $400 like they were. But on the other hand, this guy new exactly what it was and actually bought if for himself and we just put the money towards my AR. I was glad it went to somebody who appreicated the craftsmanship of that gun and all the went into it.

 

[Cpt.America]

I got the Rock River Arms CAR A4. I know 7" is too short for a rail.

Ok, so you opted for a carbine length gas system, which is 1 or 2" shorter than mine (don't recall exactly). If you leave your A4 front sight / gas block, you will have to go with a shorter rail, like a 7" (whatever the length up to the sight actually is) which would be just fine really. I would shoot the rifle a bit with the factory hand guards that come with the rifle, and see if you have enough hand rail for your tastes. If it is enough stock, then an after market rail that is just as short, will work fine too.

There are a couple different options for you

1) There are rail systems that are 10" long lets say, but only on the sides and on the bottom. The top is notched back to fit a fixed sight that is only 7" down the barrel. This gives you more lower grip options and side mounting options, but lets you keep your factory sight/gas block

2) you can hack off the fixed sight portion of your A4 gasblock (removing the sight, leaving the gasblock), and put any length rail over the top of it, then mount a removable front sight. This will save you money on the new gas block, and will let you increase your sight radius out to the length of your rail.

3) you can remove your A4 gas block altogether, buy a low-pro aftermarket, then afix a rail system however long you want. This too will let you increase your sight radius out to the length of your rail.

But once you get into the whole "swap sights, swap gas blocks, add picitiny, change butstock... is where you end up saving a ton of money had you just built it that way to begin with... know what i mean?

Anyway... continuing on. Make sure you get pics up asap

 

[Tomorrow]

I got the Rock River Arms CAR A4. I can't access any firearms sites from work or else I'd send you the link. The barrell is 16". I just went to drop off payment on the special order and got to measure it out on their rental RRA A4. The gas block starts at 7" from the upper and includes the delta ring in the measurement. I see quad rails that measure 9" and 10" and I'm wondering if the difference is the delta ring in that if replaces the delta ring in the assembly like the Troy does, it would be an extra inch in length as opposed to different rails that leave the delta ring intact and just begin from that point. I know 7" is too short for a rail, but I'm still deciding between the 10" and 12". There's no rush so I might just wait to get the rifle before I get all this stuff. it's just that supplies are getting harder and harder to come by.

Congrats, Chris. As is Adam...I'm starting to get envious, here.

Adam...I did just that last night...got some of 'em out and fondled 'em. No complaints from the missus, either. She missed them, too. (Now THERE is a wife! )

EDIT: Oh wait...I'm talking about guns, er, firearms here!

 

[itschris]

Ok, so you opted for a carbine length gas system, which is 1 or 2" shorter than mine (don't recall exactly). If you leave your A4 front sight / gas block, you will have to go with a shorter rail, like a 7" (whatever the length up to the sight actually is) which would be just fine really. I would shoot the rifle a bit with the factory hand guards that come with the rifle, and see if you have enough hand rail for your tastes. If it is enough stock, then an after market rail that is just as short, will work fine too.

There are a couple different options for you

1) There are rail systems that are 10" long lets say, but only on the sides and on the bottom. The top is notched back to fit a fixed sight that is only 7" down the barrel. This gives you more lower grip options and side mounting options, but lets you keep your factory sight/gas block

2) you can hack off the fixed sight portion of your A4 gasblock (removing the sight, leaving the gasblock), and put any length rail over the top of it, then mount a removable front sight. This will save you money on the new gas block, and will let you increase your sight radius out to the length of your rail.

3) you can remove your A4 gas block altogether, buy a low-pro aftermarket, then afix a rail system however long you want. This too will let you increase your sight radius out to the length of your rail.

But once you get into the whole "swap sights, swap gas blocks, add picitiny, change butstock... is where you end up saving a ton of money had you just built it that way to begin with... know what i mean?

Anyway... continuing on. Make sure you get pics up asap

Well this is what I did... I decided not to wait. I ordered both the 10" Troy Industries Rail and a 12" Daniel Defense Rail. I orded a YHM low profile gas block... the fixed sight is coming off. I order Troy rail mount front and rear flip ups which I got for $250 for both which was about $25 cheaper than I'd seen.

I just figured I ought to get the stuff now before I can't anymore. I'll likely buy another AR anyway (probably build it from the ground up), so whichever rail I decide on for the carbine I'll use the other for the new rifle. I like both looks and both do what I need, so I'm not losing anything by having both. The one thing I was sure about was that I'd want to 86 the stock front sight/gas block.

I'll likely go with the Command Arms stock at some point, but for now I'm good. Next will be optics, but I'm in no rush especially since that's another $1k for the two Aimpoints I want.

Since I just ditched my favorite 1911 .45... I'm suddenly feeling empty inside. I called Bob Cogan up in Alabama to see if he could build me a new gun... one that will be exactly what I want in a custom carry 45. I'm thinking I'm going to go with the titanium Colt commander length gun which was the like the base gun I began with on the other one (the one I posted pics of) I'll have the frame chopped and get a new Officer's slide and compensate it. I'm not sure what kinda of checkering if any you can do on a titanium frame, but we''ll see. My other 45 had the trigger guard squared and checkered as well. I'll be talking to Bob about that in our next discussion.

It never ends.

 

[Cpt.America]

I honestly don't think you will ever have the problems of "not being able to buy parts anymore", for an AR-15. Picitiny rails will always be there... buttstocks will always be there.. etc.

If you want to buy the things now that you may not be able to get at ALL in the future, you would want to invest in the following:

1) Stripped lowers
2) 20 and 30 round magazines
3) Ammunition

Nothing else really matters all that much... these are the things that are possibly facing restrictions or banishment soon.

 

[itschris]

I honestly don't think you will ever have the problems of "not being able to buy parts anymore", for an AR-15. Picitiny rails will always be there... buttstocks will always be there.. etc.

If you want to buy the things now that you may not be able to get at ALL in the future, you would want to invest in the following:

1) Stripped lowers
2) 20 and 30 round magazines
3) Ammunition

Nothing else really matters all that much... these are the things that are possibly facing restrictions or banishment soon.

I went ahead and got 5 additonal 30 round mags. I'm going to start gathering ammo as well. I know those items won't be banned, but it really is getting harder to find them in stock. One look at sites like Bravo Company USA and all you see is OUT OF STOCK on all sought after accessories. That's teh only reason I jumped the gun a bit. They have 3 more RRA's coming in and I'll likely put do a preorder on a second rifle tomorrow.

 

[Spkr_Bldr]

Hey Chris, check out Fusion if you're wanting another custom 1911 built. Cogan does build nice stuff too, but I think you can get a lot more gun for less money from Fusion. Bob Serva is the man there, he has as much experience as anybody ... I currently have a Fusion 10mm with a longslide and 6" barrel, and am having a Commander Bobtail frame Stainless .45 built. I also have a customized Springfield TRP with all Ed Brown internals and action work by a great local smith, and a Kimber 5" that's been worked over as well. The Fusion is still my favorite shooter, and 10mm out of a 6" barrel just rocks!

Congrats on the RRA purchase! A RRA Tactical Entry was my first AR, and 10 later it's still one of my favorites. Great quality and reliability, and the 2-stage trigger is fantastic. I put the GG&G free-float rail on it and love it. 16" carbines are supposed to be light weight, so why put a 12" rail on it? What would you ever need to mount that far forward anyway? I assume you have the standard collapsable stock, if so that $25 or so CAA cheek piece is one of the best mods you can do ... gives a great cheek weld and mounts solid. I get to run mine on full-auto occasionally as well, since I have a buddy with a couple registered full-auto lowers ... because of that I put a PRI QCB brake on it, and it really keeps it under control for a full mag. Also put a YHM flip gas-block front sight on, Bobro short front grip, and a Pentagon light. And of course some Duracoat work. I can post a pic if you'd like.

 

[Spkr_Bldr]

I went ahead and got 5 additonal 30 round mags. I'm going to start gathering ammo as well. I know those items won't be banned, but it really is getting harder to find them in stock. One look at sites like Bravo Company USA and all you see is OUT OF STOCK on all sought after accessories. That's teh only reason I jumped the gun a bit. They have 3 more RRA's coming in and I'll likely put do a preorder on a second rifle tomorrow.

MidwayUSA recently had 30rd AR-Stoner mags with Magpul follower on sale for $9.99. You can imagine the mad rush, they sold like 10,000 in 4 hours. But I ordered 50, which were back-ordered. I didn't expect them to fill the back order, but surprisingly they did! I'm pretty flush on mags now

Most places show lower parts kits as out of stock, but place an order and it'll usually get filled in 2 weeks or so. I have about 5-6 spare kits now, and about 5 spare lowers. If you want some, place an order with a good shop and you'll get them sooner than you think.

 

[MidnightSensi]

MidwayUSA recently had 30rd AR-Stoner mags with Magpul follower on sale for $9.99. You can imagine the mad rush, they sold like 10,000 in 4 hours. But I ordered 50, which were back-ordered. I didn't expect them to fill the back order, but surprisingly they did! I'm pretty flush on mags now

Most places show lower parts kits as out of stock, but place an order and it'll usually get filled in 2 weeks or so. I have about 5-6 spare kits now, and about 5 spare lowers. If you want some, place an order with a good shop and you'll get them sooner than you think.

Yeah I ordered 5 mags from MidwayUSA during that, got them in like a week and a half, even with ground shipping.