Financial disaster with one common connection.

[Rickster71]

Legislation like Glass Steagall protected us, and then republicans repealed it. When you have regulations that are designed to protect us being taken away by republicans under the influence of corporate lobbyists, what do you *think* is going to happen?

The bill that ultimately repealed the Act was introduced in the Senate by Phil Gramm (R-TX) 1999.

After passing both the Senate and House the bill was moved to a conference committee to work out the differences between the Senate and House versions.

The final bipartisan bill resolving the differences was passed in the Senate 90-8-1 and in the House: 362-57-15. Without forcing a veto vote, this bipartisan, legislation was signed into law by President Bill Clinton on November 12, 1999.

 

[itschris]

What is your "overwhelming factual evidence?" All we basically have is propaganda from the right denying any part in it. I haven't "brilliantly conceived anything on my own." It's simply a fact that republican ideology has been the driving force behind the deregulation we have seen that has caused so much of the financial problems we are facing today. E.g.:

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0308/9246.html

So from the perspective of reality, it appears you are the one ignoring the overwhelming factual evidence. It's always easy to spot when people side with the ones who are harming them, in this case the banking and mortgage corporations which lobbied through people like Phil Gramm to deregulate the industry. And once they deregulated, it came crashing down on all of us.

But rather than point the finger of blame where it clearly belongs, you talk about some alleged "attitude" I have of ignoring the facts. Well, phil gramm's legislation deregulated Glass Steagall. That's just a fact. Sorry if you don't want to deal with it, but blaming it on poor people isn't going to solve anything.

I'm the one who's actually always quite amused when I see people who don't even understand the concepts of oppression and how power is being used to oppress through ideology in the interest of profiting a particular class (which is very infrequently the middle class and almost never the working or underclass). You can "feel" it even in the hatred of the poor and searching for scapegoats we always see from these kinds of posts blaming "government," blaming progressives, blaming any and everyone but the people who are actually causing the problem: the right winger "feed the rich" crew who want to deregulate everything in sight so their corporate masters can go on raping and looting the country blind. Voters saw through that this past election, I don't think it's going to work anymore. Nice try, though.

You really didn't answer my question, but I can all but assure you I have a greater understanding of these concepts than you assuming your knowledge is derived from a few paragraphs here and there from the internet.

You really don't have a grasp on the greater conepts and you make assumption on what side I'm on or who and what I blame. For instance you and many others sight deregulation. Deregulation isn't the cause. It's like saying a firearm is responsible for murdering someone. There's more than enough regulation, but in the hands of those with misguided, malicious, or thoughtless intent, you can murder anything... including our economy. I won't bore you with the long explanation it would take ... since it's likely you wouldn't believe the result should it differ from what you think at this particular moment anyway.

You're clearly very passionate about how you feel and I respect that, but you may consider toning down the rhetoric just a tad. I'm curious, however, if you believe there are any "left wingers" out there "raping" everyone along with the evil "right wingers?"

Let's look into our crystal ball for a moment and suggest that the state of affairs worsen under Obama's presidency and let's assume a 2 term deal at that. I know it's very difficult to imagine, but for argument's sake let's pretend. Who are you going to blame then? Will you and others still reach back to the Bush years and the other "right wingers?" At some point, we all need to look in the mirror as opposed to staring out the window. It's amazing how your perspective can change if you can handle what you really see.

 

[soundhound]

The bill that ultimately repealed the Act was introduced in the Senate by Phil Gramm (R-TX) 1999.

After passing both the Senate and House the bill was moved to a conference committee to work out the differences between the Senate and House versions.

The final bipartisan bill resolving the differences was passed in the Senate 90-8-1 and in the House: 362-57-15. Without forcing a veto vote, this bipartisan, legislation was signed into law by President Bill Clinton on November 12, 1999.

Lol, gramm snuck the legislation into a huge bill in the dead of night. practically no one but he knew it was there, it was buried so deep. The democrats then tried to repeal it over the year, btw, but they were blocked by the republicans.

 

[Alamar]

IMHO neither the Right nor the Left are solely to blame for the mess that we're in. It's our "gimme gimme" attitude and somewhat our "let the govt handle it" attitudes that have gotten us in trouble.

A fair amount of the housing problems came about in the late 90s when the government [GOP & Dems] both thought it would be a good idea to try to get banks to make loans to people that never should have gotten them.

When banks started loosening the reigns we had more people out there with more cash. This meant that "demand" for housing would go up as more people wanted houses and also had more cash at hand which they could purchase the house.

With prices going up non stop it would be easy to get into a house you couldn't afford with no bad effects because if your loan reset and you couldn't make payments you could always sell the house for more than you had in it and get by. You could also borrow against your unpaid-for equity to bury yourself further.

Eventually these sort of artificial bubbles have to pop.

For this part of the problem I blame:

1. GOP & Dems for thinking this was a good policy.

2. Greedy / dumb people who knew they couldn't really afford a house but said "what the heck -- that house is pretty".

3. Greedy banks for actually making the loans [that the govt wanted them to make] that were stupid.

**********************************************************

The other half of the equation though does have to do with some deregulation. I'm not an expert on the matter but Glass Stegall wasn't necessarily a bad idea.

In addition a lot of securities were resold as AAA [safe] investments when they were backed by mortgage loans that were basically terrible. IF the securities were rated at the proper risk rating then we wouldn't have so many institutions with so much toxic debt on their books.

**********************************************************

Lastly this whole entitlement mentality is killing us all. I "deserve" help with my mortgage that I knew I couldn't pay for. I "deserve" help [GM] because I haven't made a car in 10 years that people today would want.

Gimme gimme gimme -- I'm sick of it

**********************************************************

Who is the person that gets hosed by this though? Little old me who made responsible desicions and now I have to pay for:

1. Someone who bought a house they KNEW they couldn't afford
2. Someone who makes cars I would only own if it were GIVEN to me
3. Greedy banks that should have known better than to have made bad loans

 

[soundhound]

You really didn't answer my question, but I can all but assure you I have a greater understanding of these concepts than you assuming your knowledge is derived from a few paragraphs here and there from the internet.

You really don't have a grasp on the greater conepts and you make assumption on what side I'm on or who and what I blame. For instance you and many others sight deregulation. Deregulation isn't the cause. It's like saying a firearm is responsible for murdering someone. There's more than enough regulation, but in the hands of those with misguided, malicious, or thoughtless intent, you can murder anything... including our economy. I won't bore you with the long explanation it would take ... since it's likely you wouldn't believe the result should it differ from what you think at this particular moment anyway.

You're clearly very passionate about how you feel and I respect that, but you may consider toning down the rhetoric just a tad. I'm curious, however, if you believe there are any "left wingers" out there "raping" everyone along with the evil "right wingers?"

Let's look into our crystal ball for a moment and suggest that the state of affairs worsen under Obama's presidency and let's assume a 2 term deal at that. I know it's very difficult to imagine, but for argument's sake let's pretend. Who are you going to blame then? Will you and others still reach back to the Bush years and the other "right wingers?" At some point, we all need to look in the mirror as opposed to staring out the window. It's amazing how your perspective can change if you can handle what you really see.

You're not making much sense, I'm afraid. The problem wasn't caused by Obama, he's just the one who now has to try to clean it up. Saying that if he's not able to clean it up sufficiently that he's the one who then caused it makes no sense whatsoever. That would be like saying that if the situation in Iraq didn't improve during his term that it was he who then caused us to get into it. But he didn't get us into it, it was initiated by neocon republican policy, just like he didn't cause the mortgage lending or the credit crises. Those were caused largely by republican deregulatory policy along with far-right wing "free market" quasi- laissez-faire/libertarian policy from greenspan.

Trying to make yourself feel better by repeating that I don't have a "grasp" of the issues is ridiculous. Those kinds of personal attacks don't really get anyone anywhere. If you have have something to dispute, then dispute it with facts, like the ones I have provided: Glass Steagall was repealed by legislation written by phil gramm, which was snuck into legislation on the sly, in the dead of night, democrats then tried to overturn it, but those attempts were obstructed by republicans. That's largely what caused the mortgage lending crisis, because it allowed lenders to deal on these loans in ways that they were NOT ALLOWED TO prior to the repeal of Glass Steagall. The credit crisis and resulting crash we saw a few weeks ago was similarly instigated by republican deregulation that allowed activity and behavior that previously had not been allowed. It turns out they were not allowed for good reason. Take away the protection through deregulating it, and the next thing you know you have a crisis on your hands. Those are the facts. You'd do better imo to just address the facts and leave me and the personal attacks out of it.

 

[Halon451]

You'd do better imo to just address the facts and leave me and the personal attacks out of it.

I've seen no personal attacks, soundhound - itschris has disagreed with you and has eloquently stated why. There has been no name-calling or derogatory language here - yet, I find it amusing when left-wingers such as yourself suddenly get spun all to hell because someone doesn't agree with them backed by obvious facts. We've all seen this a hundred times on this forum and you're no different. If you're going to so strongly advocate your position, then you're doing yourself a favor by being prepared to defend it.

 

[soundhound]

I've seen no personal attacks, soundhound - itschris has disagreed with you and has eloquently stated why. There has been no name-calling or derogatory language here - yet, I find it amusing when left-wingers such as yourself suddenly get spun all to hell because someone doesn't agree with them backed by obvious facts. We've all seen this a hundred times on this forum and you're no different. If you're going to so strongly advocate your position, then you're doing yourself a favor by being prepared to defend it.

I have defended it, and more. When someone says "you really don't have a grasp of the issues," that's an OPINION, and it's also an attack. I could just as easily say the same thing from my point of view, couldn't I? "You don't really understand the issues." That doesn't really get anyone anywhere. It's just someone mouthing off with a personal attack. It's like when mccain kept repeating in the debate, "what Sen. Obama doesn't understand is...." It's a subtle kind of bullsh!t attack, a way of trying to undermine the person's credibility by making a baseless claim. That's pure b.s.

Then look what he does. Offers more opinion: "For instance you and many others sight [sic] deregulation. Deregulation isn't the cause. It's like saying a firearm is responsible for murdering someone. There's more than enough regulation, but in the hands of those with misguided, malicious, or thoughtless intent, you can murder anything... including our economy."

That's nothing but pure opinion, no facts whatsoever to back him up. "Deregulation isn't the cause." Says who? Says his opinion, with no facts. Anyone can sit around and make bullsh!t statements like that all day long. It doesn't prove a thing. "Drugs aren't the cause of addiction." "Crime isn't the cause of high prison population." How silly. Where's your proof that drugs aren't the cause of addiction? Where's your proof that deregulation isn't the cause? Oh that's right -- you don't have any. All you have is a meaningless bullsh!t statement based solely on opinion. Not one fact in anything he said, just opinion.

Then he ties up his substanceless post with this: "Let's look into our crystal ball for a moment and suggest that the state of affairs worsen under Obama's presidency and let's assume a 2 term deal at that. I know it's very difficult to imagine, but for argument's sake let's pretend. Who are you going to blame then? Will you and others still reach back to the Bush years and the other "right wingers?" At some point, we all need to look in the mirror as opposed to staring out the window. It's amazing how your perspective can change if you can handle what you really see."

More bullsh!t, this time based solely on hypotheticals and asking us to speculate! How ironic, since speculation is what got us into this mess -- speculation that was ILLEGAL until it was DEREGULATED. But I'm not interested in speculating or in hypotheticals. I'm interested in facts. And the facts are that our economy melted down because of the repeal of legislation like Glass Steagall that caused the mortage lending industry to go wild selling and speculating on bad loans. Again, that really happened, that's a fact. That's not a bullsh!t speculation: "let's play make believe and say Obama failed, too, like bush and the republicans did." Give me a break.

 

[Davemcc]

I've seen Pelosi on tape from 2006 saying that she did not want to increase regulation in the mortgage industry and many of her Democratic cohorts as well. The reason the Democrats did not re-regulate the finance industry is that they did not want to, according to their own statements.

 

[itschris]

I have defended it, and more.

You've defended nothing and done little else other than restate the tired one liners blaming evil Republicans for everything that has gone wrong. You continue to make a lot of assumptions about what i think, but it doesn't matter at this point. I re-read everything I wrote and I can't find a single occasion where I've personally attacked you.

I questioned your thought process and your proclamations... true. But if you're wary or insulted by being questioned and challenged due to what I believe are largely erroneaous statements based on what sound to me as little more than talking points from left wing blogger sites, than I apologize to you.

I simply read your characterizations, written with verve and matter of factness, and wondered what qualifications made you so certain that schooled and experienced PhD's who are tasked with identifying issues in real world industry were all catagorically wrong in their findings... as it relates to your opinion. I found that a lofty statement and was anxious to learn your background that so qualified you to pass that judgement. I work in Finance and Economics. It's what I do everyday. Analyzing trends, policy - both political and economic, and it's affect on markets both national and global... it's what I do. We also create sophisticated analysis for our dealings and regulatory efforts in DC, so I'm somewhat in tune to what's going on. I would never categorize myself as an expert. The subject is far too vast to grasp it all in a single breath, and a lot of what I do is targeted, but there are certainly those who can. I've had the good fortune to speak with them on occasion, and even hear them testify on Capital Hill. They are some of the most intelligent people on the planet with analytical minds that digest and understand large amounts of data and variables in seconds.

When you dismiss people like this so flippantly, I think it's only natural to be intrigued with what's behind the opinion.

But in the end, I certainly respect your right to think what you want. We'll just kindly disagree.