Tax Plans - McCain vs. Obama made Simple

Halon451

Halon451

Audioholic Samurai
I thought Obama was going to raise it above $250K? The link shows nothing to about $600k.:confused:
You are right about the graph, there does seem to indicate some discrepancy between what we've been hearing and reading elsewhere, but I do think the general concept to illustrate the differences between the two tax plans is made simpler and easier to understand regardless. Despite the disagreement in specific numbers, IMO, it nevertheless paints a very clear picture of Obama's "Re-distribution of Wealth" campaign when it comes to his economic policy.

EU anyone? Might as well before this is over and done with... ;)
 
jonnythan

jonnythan

Audioholic Ninja
Income taxes are, and have always been, about redistribution of wealth.
 
jonnythan

jonnythan

Audioholic Ninja
No, I'm not joking. How is an income tax anything but a redistribution of wealth?

A slight tweaking of the income tax brackets isn't an introduction to socialism. The introduction of the income tax was the introduction to socialism.
 
Halon451

Halon451

Audioholic Samurai
No, I'm not joking. How is an income tax anything but a redistribution of wealth?

A slight tweaking of the income tax brackets isn't an introduction to socialism. The introduction of the income tax was the introduction to socialism.
There have been several proposals to eliminate the income tax altogether, but I personally don't see that as a viable option with an ever-increasing national debt, and fewer and fewer ways to pay it off. Sales tax alone won't even scratch the surface unless we hike it up to some ridiculous percentage. At that point though, you've effectively created a "flat rate" tax that affects everyone in alarmingly different ways - for example, those with limited incomes will be hit the hardest, while those who are more well off are affected much less.

Taxes are necessary, and people have to realize that. The tax system we have is far from being flawless, but they have made some effort to mitigate the burden placed on citizens in varying levels of income, but is still a very far cry from being any kind of "Redistribution of Wealth" scheme. That claim is ridiculous - but the way I see it, Obama's plan attempts to take the current tax system that much closer to a socialized level of equality that punishes people for their success and rewards those who don't aspire to achieve said success. The graph IMO, clearly demonstrates this, and more alarming that so many people don't realize the dramatic and perilous effects this will have on our society in general.
 
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rnatalli

Audioholic Ninja
The Swiss use a lump-sum taxation system. Not sure that would work here, but does show it's possible to run government without income tax.
 
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rnatalli

Audioholic Ninja
That claim is ridiculous - but the way I see it, Obama's plan attempts to take the current tax system that much closer to a socialized level of equality that punishes people for their success and rewards those who don't aspire to achieve said success.
There's only so much to go around and not everyone can have the American Dream despite what the propaganda would have us believe. If you're at the top, the last thing you want is everyone angry and against you not too mention competing with you. History has shown people will only take so much from above before they snap. It's better to pay a little more than having the whole thing implode as those at the top have the most to lose. Punishment in the form of a tax payment is far better than a hanging. Whether this is right or not doesn't matter as this is how things go; the mob ultimately rules.
 
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rnatalli

Audioholic Ninja
Here's another way of looking at things. Why is when the economy is booming, we cut taxes for the rich and when it is down we tell everyone else to go out and spend in order to save us all? Why not give the money to those spending all along if they're the ones who make the economy tick? More consumers means more business is needed. The demand should dictate the supply, not the other way around.
 
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aberkowitz

aberkowitz

Audioholic Field Marshall
A graduated income tax system would work if it didn't offer loopholes. When Warren Buffet says he pays on average 15% in taxes, you know something isn't right when someone who makes $50k/year pays more than 15%.
I'd love to know more about the context of that quote. A man like Warren Buffet probably has huge swings in capital gains/losses in any given year. It is quite possible that in a certain year his effective tax rate was 15% b/c of large capital losses as well as the extreme tax planning that he's engaged in on behalf of his foundation and his heirs.

If you looked at the effective tax rate of a wide variety of lesser "uber rich" people (e.g. not worth $50 billion), I'm sure their effective tax rates are much higher.

Btw- A single person who makes $50K a year with no mortgage, no dependents, taking the standard deduction, will only pay $6600 in federal income taxes a year- that's 13% of gross income. Now- when you add in FICA and state/local taxes that % will go up, but from a pure federal income tax perspective it's only 13%.
 
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rnatalli

Audioholic Ninja
Btw- A single person who makes $50K a year with no mortgage, no dependents, taking the standard deduction, will only pay $6600 in federal income taxes a year- that's 13% of gross income. Now- when you add in FICA and state/local taxes that % will go up, but from a pure federal income tax perspective it's only 13%.
This is a good point. I was thinking Fed and FICA.
 
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Exit

Audioholic Chief
If you add up federal, state, local, social security, medicare, real estate tax and personal property taxes you might find you may pay about 25% of gross income in taxes. This doesn’t include 7% sales taxes, gas taxes, cigarette taxes, car licenses and fees, etc. A 25% tax rate estimation works pretty well in budgeting to see how much spendable income you may have.
 
aberkowitz

aberkowitz

Audioholic Field Marshall
If you add up federal, state, local, social security, medicare, real estate tax and personal property taxes you might find you may pay about 25% of gross income in taxes. This doesn’t include 7% sales taxes, gas taxes, cigarette taxes, car licenses and fees, etc. A 25% tax rate estimation works pretty well in budgeting to see how much spendable income you may have.
Depends on your income level :D.
 
itschris

itschris

Moderator
Another thing I don't think a lot of people are figuring in is that Obama will let the Bush Tax cut expire... then apply the new tax plan. For me, that a huge hit on it's own... a big hit. Everyone is also assuming that once he lets that expire, that he will in fact go foward with the tax cuts (actually tax credits since most in his plan don't even pay taxes which makes it a welfare check in my eyes. You can't get a reduction on something you don't already pay). What if the doom and gloom they're spewing about the economy to get elected doesn't reverse once they take office? What if the very tools they're employing to further damage the economy to get elected actually cause a prolonged crisis? Who's going to give you the tax cut then? How will they? Are they going to raise mine to 50%+?

I'm not opposed to Democrats or the liberal mindset perse, but you gotta have open eyes when you really think about this stuff. Everyone's just so anamored with Obama ridiing in on his golden unicorn to save us all that I think no one is really paying a whole lot of attention to what he's actually proposing. Though there are few liberal democrats in the finance and economics industry... at least in my side of it.... even the ones who are are quite concerned about what Obama's proposing... especially with a unified congress let by Pelosi and Reid.
 
E

Exit

Audioholic Chief
You are exactly right, it does depend on income and losses. My 25% tax rate estimation is with another $15k income, a house and two dependents so this rate my not be good for him. You need to look at all the factors I mentioned for your particular income and losses. I was just trying to point out that taxes could be 10% or greater than pure income taxes.
 
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rnatalli

Audioholic Ninja
Plenty of politicians on both sides have promised and never delivered. I'm mainly voting for Obama because I agree with more of his positions than McCain's and I like that he thinks things through rather than "shooting from the hip." Few things on the global stage need attention on the same day. Some exceptions of course include a terrorist attack or worst, a nuclear attack, but these aren't everyday occurrences. Everything else should be looked at and debated carefully. From a tax perspective, who knows what either of the candidates would do when in power. That said, I wouldn't be completely miserable if McCain were to win as he isn't as far away from my standpoints as some other republicans; but his prospects are dimming. He should have run the campaign he wanted rather than what the party wanted.

It's a bit unnerving that the Dems might control all government, but there's no guarantee the Dems will hit 60. Even if there were, I would still vote for the candidate I want rather than play politics with my vote. I have a lot of respect for people who vote for 3rd party candidates as they're clearly voting their conscience. Some say this is throwing away a vote, but I don't see it that way.
 
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itschris

itschris

Moderator
Plenty of politicians on both sides have promised and never delivered. I'm mainly voting for Obama because I agree with more of his positions than McCain's and I like that he thinks things through rather than "shooting from the hip." Few things on the global stage need attention on the same day. Some exceptions of course include a terrorist attack or worst, a nuclear attack, but these aren't everyday occurrences. Everything else should be looked at and debated carefully. From a tax perspective, who knows what either of the candidates would do when in power. That said, I wouldn't be completely miserable if McCain were to win as he isn't as far away from my standpoints as some other republicans; but his prospects are dimming. He should have run the campaign he wanted rather than what the party wanted.

It's a bit unnerving that the Dems might control all government, but there's no guarantee the Dems will hit 60. Even if there were, I would still vote for the candidate I want rather than play politics with my vote. I have a lot of respect for people who vote for 3rd party candidates as they're clearly voting their conscience. Some say this is throwing away a vote, but I don't see it that way.
If you really understand and agree with Obama and you find that upon honest and careful thought that you have no issues with the never ending list of questionable associations and mantras, then you honestly have my sincere respect for your opinions. You do.. I mean that. I disagree with you wholeheartedly, but that's okay and it's important in many respects that people in this country do have these differences.

I just wish that the majority of others understood or had some basis or could at least quantify in some real terms why they're so strident in their support for the man. I've talked with so many and I hear the catch phrases... hope, change, blah... blah... blah. Everyone is so caught up in the emotion of it all, their blind hatred for Bush and all things Republican (most who don't even know why... but they just do) that I'm not confident the majority of individuals really know or care why they're voting for Obama beyond that fact that it's the coolest thing to do... like you're part of some special gang. And I do have to applaud the campaign and their surrogates in the media for creating that aura. I've followed politics quite closely and have been a student of politicl history and I've seen nothing like it. I honestly think a large proportion of the voting block would vote for him no matter what he did or said... even to their own greater detriment than what they'll already get with him. I don't think most even understand nor care that they don't. They're just caught up in the movement.
 
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rnatalli

Audioholic Ninja
If you really understand and agree with Obama and you find that upon honest and careful thought that you have no issues with the never ending list of questionable associations and mantras, then you honestly have my sincere respect for your opinions. You do.. I mean that. I disagree with you wholeheartedly, but that's okay and it's important in many respects that people in this country do have these differences.
I feel the same way. Amen to that. You feel Obama will crush you tax-wise, and that alone is enough to go the other way. Not that that's your only reason, but it's a good one.

I think what you said could be applied to so many who also voted blindly for Bush. People who voted without looking at facts and even voted for a candidate who doesn't represent their position. No different than what's going on today. Plenty of fools to go around on both sides.
 
itschris

itschris

Moderator
Actually, my reasons are less about the tax issue and not even so much about experience, but pretty much reside with charactor and judgement and a prevailing mindset that I feel is contrary to everything this country was founded on. I don't care that he's black, I don't even care that he's a Democrat, I don't care that he's arrogrant or even that he disagrees with me because none of those things are very critical in my view on being a president... but in my eyes... the things that really do matter... the broader concepts that I believe make a good President... even if some of the choices turn out to be wrong... are at best lacking in the man and at worst are grave cause of concern to me.

But again, we can all have respectful disagreements. You can be passionate in your arguments and criticisms, and you can be 180 degree contrary to whatever I or someone else thinks is right in this world and it's okay. It's good that it happens. But being ignorant (and I don't mean that in the insulting way) of your very own beliefs is unexcusable in my book.

It's very hard to be a conservative. It's not cool, it's not hip. Everyone tries to paint you as some stuffy guy who wants to pollute the evironment and step on the backs of the poor and all the other regurgitated rhetoric. But those couldn't be any further from the truth. For instance, I don't hate the poor. But I don't believe in handouts. I believe in reaching out to those in real need, but not those who only find it easier to take that help rather than picking themselves up by their bootstraps and stuggle and claw their way to success. We recently attended a forum where Asian businessmen were discussing the ongoing disparity between African Americans and immigrant Asians. They sited that the reason Asians were able to succeed and prosper, despite a poor command of the English language, and some, not all, but some of the same prejudices, was because they work together and they work themselves ragged to succeed. And when they do, they open up to others in their community to join them. It was a very inspiring session.

I've hit on this many times in other posts. Our main issue in this country is that too many people have a sense of entitlement. When I first started in the financial industry, I started on the other side of it, on the sales side. I started my carreer as a financial planner. When I first got into it after college, I was working with Medicaid alternatives. I would go door to door in these poor neighborhoods trying to get them better health benefts through private alternatives which costed nothing. I was always surprised at how so many of these homes were filled with big tv's... the old 55" style RPTVs, statellite dishes, nice furniture, a cabinet full of liquor, and a car out front with $5k worth of rims on it. I'll be honest... I didn't and I still don't want to help them. I don't want to give, provide, lend, nothing-anything to people like that. I wanted and still do help people who live like they do in the small mobil home park not far from my neighborhood that's full of hard working folks who do all they can just to pay the bills. I've gotten them involved in community meetings and they've all very much worked hard to have a voice in city and county planning. Many of them are on welfare, but you don't see fancy cars in the driveway or dishes affixed to the home. They struggle everyday and those are the people I want to help.

I'm on a soapbox here going all over the place. It's been tough morning already. It's amazing how many things can go wrong here at the office. Since 6:30am it's been one thing after another.
 
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