Tax Plans - McCain vs. Obama made Simple

[jonnythan]

You think McCain exercises better judgment and displays better character than Obama?

Really?

 

[rnatalli]

I've hit on this many times in other posts. Our main issue in this country is that too many people have a sense of entitlement. When I first started in the financial industry, I started on the other side of it, on the sales side. I started my carreer as a financial planner. When I first got into it after college, I was working with Medicaid alternatives. I would go door to door in these poor neighborhoods trying to get them better health benefts through private alternatives which costed nothing. I was always surprised at how so many of these homes were filled with big tv's... the old 55" style RPTVs, statellite dishes, nice furniture, a cabinet full of liquor, and a car out front with $5k worth of rims on it. I'll be honest... I didn't and I still don't want to help them. I don't want to give, provide, lend, nothing-anything to people like that. I wanted and still do help people who live like they do in the small mobil home park not far from my neighborhood that's full of hard working folks who do all they can just to pay the bills. I've gotten them involved in community meetings and they've all very much worked hard to have a voice in city and county planning. Many of them are on welfare, but you don't see fancy cars in the driveway or dishes affixed to the home. They struggle everyday and those are the people I want to help.

This paragraph alone makes me realize you and I are not all that different. And it sounds like we've been in the same industry. But I now work for a tree-hugging organization I agree with much of what you said in your post, but have different focuses. For example, I feel everyone should be entitled to health care. I can't hide in my home or the Harvard Faculty Club every moment of every day; I have to head to the local Shaw's or whatever. What I don't want is someone without health care coughing all around me. I want everyone around me nice and healthy as it affects me as well. Does it bother me that someone who eats three burgers a day can have health care at the same cost, sure it does, but it still beats the alternative because soon it'll be our genetic code that gives us away and I'm sure my code isn't perfect.

 

[itschris]

You think McCain exercises better judgment and displays better character than Obama?

Really?

From what very little we know of Obama.... my answer is absolutely yes.

The things like Ayres, ACORN, and Write speak to me. Not just the associations, but the dismissals like they don't matter. At least have the courage to own up to the people you've surrounded yourself with in your life.... then I can respect you. Associating with those people speaks to your judgement... or your at least your willingness to to deal with anyone to advance yourself. To me, that's important. Explain it all away... but it matters to me and tells me something about the man... especially in light of the fact there's little else to counter or balance out the impression.

I see someone who wants to continue the mantra of vicitimization. Tell those who aren't doing well in life that it's not their fault and help them point the finger of blame at those who have achieved success and that they are entitled to take from those people to better their lot in life. Let's not create success, let's not experience prosperity through achievement - let just take it from others and dole it out to make things more even --- That concerns me.

So yeah... there's not a lot he stands for or at least the methods he proposes to get there, than I can support. Honestly, for me, he represents a wide swath of the things I think are wrong with this country.

 

[itschris]

This paragraph alone makes me realize you and I are not all that different. And it sounds like we've been in the same industry. But I now work for a tree-hugging organization I agree with much of what you said in your post, but have different focuses. For example, I feel everyone should be entitled to health care. I can't hide in my home or the Harvard Faculty Club every moment of every day; I have to head to the local Shaw's or whatever. What I don't want is someone without health care coughing all around me. I want everyone around me nice and healthy as it affects me as well. Does it bother me that someone who eats three burgers a day can have health care at the same cost, sure it does, but it still beats the alternative because soon it'll be our genetic code that gives us away and I'm sure my code isn't perfect.

I think most have the same wants and desires in mind... see the same things that are needed... in a very broad scope. It's how we get there that is so vastly different.

The healthcare thing is troubling for me. Years ago, I moved from sales to the management team of one the largest Blue Cross agencies in Florida... I worked there about 10 years ago for almost years. I constantly ran into the same thing. People who simply don't want to pay for their coverage. "I'll take my chances." That unfortunately is a prevailing attitude. Owning a plasma tv, a pack a day cigarette habit, a fancy car, are not alternatives to owning up to your responsibilities. Yes, there certainly are people who cannot afford coverage, but there are also a lot who just don't want to pay for it because it cuts into their lifestyle. If you don't count those, the problem dramatically changes and you could actually do something about it. But paying for people who don't want to pay for it themselves... making me pay for them? No thanks. My old girlfriend used to work in the ER of the local hospital. I and others in my agency were involved in one of the think tanks about our healthcare reform for the state. In conversations we had with her and other hospital administrators told an important story - they never once turned anyone away for not having insurance.

Now that's not the best most efficient way to get care, but until we address the real issues, admit to the 800 pound gorilla in the room, than no real fix, or at least the correct and fair one, will ever come to fruition. Sure, you can just continue to take and take from everyone else and hand it to others, but that shouldn't be the methodology of our country.

 

[rnatalli]

The healthcare thing is troubling for me. Years ago, I moved from sales to the management team of one the largest Blue Cross agencies in Florida... I worked there about 10 years ago for almost years. I constantly ran into the same thing. People who simply don't want to pay for their coverage. "I'll take my chances." That unfortunately is a prevailing attitude. Owning a plasma tv, a pack a day cigarette habit, a fancy car, are not alternatives to owning up to your responsibilities. Yes, there certainly are people who cannot afford coverage, but there are also a lot who just don't want to pay for it because it cuts into their lifestyle. If you don't count those, the problem dramatically changes and you could actually do something about it. But paying for people who don't want to pay for it themselves... making me pay for them? No thanks. My old girlfriend used to work in the ER of the local hospital. I and others in my agency were involved in one of the think tanks about our healthcare reform for the state. In conversations we had with her and other hospital administrators told an important story - they never once turned anyone away for not having insurance.

Obama's plan is based around the idea of expanding employer-based health care and introducing a government program. His plan does not say every citizen will be covered which would be true universal coverage. The goal is to make it more accessible and at the same time, to start fining people for not buying it for their children. Hence, those people you mention with plasma TV's have no choice but to buy something or face a fine except in cases of real hardship. This isn't perfect and he doesn't say anything about forcing adults to buy it, but forcing people to insure children is a step in the right direction. I think leaving it up to the "wisdom of the American people" is foolish in this case. Make it accessible, affordable, and force people to buy it from a provider of their choosing. Free market, but with a stick.

 

[aberkowitz]

The goal is to make it more accessible and at the same time, to start fining people for not buying it for their children.

Make it accessible, affordable, and force people to buy it from a provider of their choosing. Free market, but with a stick.

In my opinion the "fine" would probably be struck down by the Supreme Court. It goes down to the fundamental argument of whether health insurance can be mandated by the government and whether the government can punish you for not taking part in it. The ACLU and other left-wing groups would probably have a field day with such a system and would clog the courts system for years. By the time there was resolution Obama wouldn't be president anymore and we'd be onto a new set of problems.

The Constitution states that anything that's not specifically delineated as a federal power is to be the purview of the states. I'm sure you'll find judges, including the current Supreme Court, who would agree with the argument that the Federal government should not be able to punish you here.

Remember, this is a country cannot even agree on federal laws regarding "simpler" issues like seatbelts and offshore drilling... no way does a punitive health care plan stick. Just my opinion though... what the hell do I know anymore

 

[rnatalli]

I don't know how people can attack Obama's character without taking a look at McCain's. He had an affair and kicked his disfigured wife to the curb, is a gambler, Keating 5, funded the professor he's attacking Obama about, has a temper, chose a running mate who's husband has ties to the Alaskan Independence Party and a knocked-up teenage daughter. I can go on and on. None of of this matters as both have had some questionable relationships, what matters is who has the right ideas to move forward.

 

[itschris]

I don't know how people can attack Obama's character without taking a look at McCain's. He had an affair and kicked his disfigured wife to the curb, is a gambler, Keating 5, funded the professor he's attacking Obama about, has a temper, chose a running mate who's husband has ties to the Alaskan Independence Party and a knocked-up teenage daughter. I can go on and on. None of of this matters as both have had some questionable relationships, what matters is who has the right ideas to move forward.

I'm not talking about living an imperfect life. Look at Ted Kennedy. That's not at all the stuff I'm concerned about.

I'm talking about a mindset that sees nothing wrong with surrounding yourself with people that at best dispise our country and would rather redistribute rather than grow wealth. Democrat or Republican... I don't understand how that can't bother people. I just can't stand by a choice... just because is was my choice. I wasn't really that opposed to Obama until all this stuff came to fruition. That's very much the difference though between the two sides. I think many liberals are willing to dismiss anything about anyone as long as it get them what they think they want. It's an end justifies the mean argument. For me, if I learned that McCain was at an event complimenting a know terrorist whilst in the company of Bill Ayres, then I would drop my support for him in a millisecond. I could never say to myself, well... sure... so he did X and X and X, but he makes me feel hopeful... so I'll vote for him.

McCain's role in the Keating 5 thing was dismissed as pure political fodder even by some of the most liberal dems, btw.

 

[rnatalli]

So McCain's relationships to people like Arocena doesn't bother you?

UPDATE: CNN's map is projecting CO will go Obama bringing his total to 286. McCain should not be concentrating on PA which he has no hope of winning.