Results are in - Monster XP vs Sonocable

[Bloodstriker]

Did you wonder why your amp blew a fuse?

It's telling you NOT to do any more wire testing!!!

I've blown a couple of amp fuses myself in the past when messing around with speaker wires. Just don't do it!

Keep those speaker wires in place and leave them alone!

hehe.. yeah.. the reason the fuse blew was because my friend didn't let one of the banana plugs touch both red and black of the one's plugged in and ..

Well, I bought 10 fuses, so maybe.

 

[j_garcia]

IMO, interconnects have a more noticeable influence on the sound because it is signal level. I don't know why, but I can more easily identify differences in them.

 

[fmw]

Well, I'll be honest I've never done a blind A/B test with speaker cables ... it's just too much hassle in most people's systems, and much more likely to short something out in haste to switch cables. I have done a few with interconnects though, and every time I identified the 'good' cable correctly within seconds. What was immediately apparent to me in those tests is the edges of the soundstage shrink inward somewhat.

St. Louis isn't that far away. I'll reduce the wager to $2000. Nobody seems to want to do it for $3000. I'll come to St. Louis. You take any two interconnect cables that you can identify in seconds and, as long as neither has significant capacitance or inductance and as long as neither is active and has no little black boxes attached, we'll make that the test using whatever system you like with as many listeners as you like. We'll do a genuine, scientifically valid bias-controlled listening test with 20 random iterations per listener. We will do everything so that everyone is satisfied that we're being fair. If you can score better than 65% correct ID's you will win my $2000. If you can't then I win your $2000. That will provide me with travel expenses and some compensation for my time. Are you in?

You see, wire has nothing to do with the edges of a soundstage shrinking inward. Absolutely nothing - ever. I'll prove it. Get your $2000 ready.

 

[fmw]

IMO, interconnects have a more noticeable influence on the sound because it is signal level. I don't know why, but I can more easily identify differences in them.

Countless bias controlled listening tests have proven that they have exactly the same difference in audibility - zero.

 

[tomd51]

I can see interconnects having more of a likelihood of being distinguishable than speaker wire, but even so, if two different interconnect manufacturers have provided a quality built cable which meets standards for it's intended purpose (if standards even exist), I can't see how the difference between them would be readily obvious in DBTs unless one of them is, in fact, defective.

I could possibly see this phenomenon being more likely in video cables, but even then, if the cables are built to a specific standard, are tested in a manner such as Gene or FMW suggested and are not defective, the differences should be subtle, if distinguishable at all. The only impact other than poor build quality or the product being defective I could possibly imagine would be the length of the run or any possible interference with the cable performing it's job... -TD

 

[mtrycrafts]

St. Louis isn't that far away. I'll reduce the wager to $2000. Nobody seems to want to do it for $3000. I'll come to St. Louis. You take any two interconnect cables that you can identify in seconds and, as long as neither has significant capacitance or inductance and as long as neither is active and has no little black boxes attached, we'll make that the test using whatever system you like with as many listeners as you like. We'll do a genuine, scientifically valid bias-controlled listening test with 20 random iterations per listener. We will do everything so that everyone is satisfied that we're being fair. If you can score better than 65% correct ID's you will win my $2000. If you can't then I win your $2000. That will provide me with travel expenses and some compensation for my time. Are you in?

You see, wire has nothing to do with the edges of a soundstage shrinking inward. Absolutely nothing - ever. I'll prove it. Get your $2000 ready.

Better do it properly with that statistics at the 95% confidence level
That would need 15 correct guesses out of 20 trials

And, everything else is also correct.
Make sure his CD component has low output impedance and the preamp or what not has a high input impedance, then normal cable capacitance has no effect to speak of. Some passive pre would wreak havoc with cable capacitance.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Well, I'll be honest I've never done a blind A/B test with speaker cables ... it's just too much hassle in most people's systems, and much more likely to short something out in haste to switch cables. I have done a few with interconnects though, and every time I identified the 'good' cable correctly within seconds. What was immediately apparent to me in those tests is the edges of the soundstage shrink inward somewhat.

I am as confident as fmw about interconnects as well. Your protocol had issues, or you had defective components or wire's, period.

 

[Spkr_Bldr]

Well, I suppose the attitude here isn't all that different than avsforum afterall. I left there because I wasn't comfotable sharing my views - the chest beating blow-hards would always insist you accept what they say as fact without any reciprocity. And God forbid you disagree with them.

If you'd rather not chase off potentially valuable contributors to the fourm, you might consider softening your tone. If your ego matters more, then by all means continue.

 

[WmAx]

Well, I suppose the attitude here isn't all that different than avsforum afterall. I left there because I wasn't comfotable sharing my views - the chest beating blow-hards would always insist you accept what they say as fact without any reciprocity. And God forbid you disagree with them.

If you'd rather not chase off potentially valuable contributors to the fourm, you might consider softening your tone. If your ego matters more, then by all means continue.

Here you will find most of the time, unproven positive claims are treated with little to no credibility. If substantial evidence(concluded under what appears to be non-biased conditions) is present, then it will be taken seriously.

Cable audibility claims (that are not defective or intentionally designed to act as response filters) have no credible evidence of which I am aware, and would fall under claims that will not likely be accepted on this forum.

-Chris

 

[Spkr_Bldr]

Here you will find most of the time, unproven positive claims are treated with little to no credibility. If substantial evidence(concluded under what appears to be non-biased conditions) is present, then it will be taken seriously.

Cable audibility claims (that are not defective or intentionally designed to act as response filters) have no credible evidence of which I am aware, and would fall under claims that will not likely be accepted on this forum.

How about you show me credible evidence that a grass fed porterhouse tastes better than grain fed? What?!?! No credible evidence? It can't possibly be true then.

Reciprocity is the key on this debate - I respect the opinion of those on the other side, but I and other cable subjectivists don't receive the same level of respect. I have no desire to change anybodys mind, but every time cables pop up as a topic, it's flooded by people insisting that they make NO difference, and anybody who spends more than $.39/foot for 14ga zip cord is a damn fool.

 

[WmAx]

How about you show me credible evidence that a grass fed porterhouse tastes better than grain fed? What?!?! No credible evidence? It can't possibly be true then.

Reciprocity is the key on this debate - I respect the opinion of those on the other side, but I and other cable subjectivists don't receive the same level of respect. I have no desire to change anybodys mind, but every time cables pop up as a topic, it's flooded by people insisting that they make NO difference, and anybody who spends more than $.39/foot for 14ga zip cord is a damn fool.

What absurdity. This does not work in a rational/efficient system. The issues have been exhausted, and no credible evidence exists to show probable audibility difference within the limits expressed earlier. It's frankly, a waste of time to discuss such things seriously unless new(credible) evidence was demonstrated to the contrary. This forum would be a source of huge mis-information if all opinions were accepted as equal by default - headfi.org and audioasylum.com are excellent models of what results from such practice.

-Chris

 

[bandphan]

and anybody who spends more than $.39/foot for 14ga zip cord is a damn fool.

not a fool, just not audibly required. If zip cord worked for roger russell with all the great gear he was afforded, and DB tests continue to prove the same; thats good enough for me. I dont think those who have not agreed with you are chest thumping, just saying there are scientific conclusions saying that its audibly irrelavent.

 

[gene]

Remember my motto regarding cables and you will avoid arguments with cable soothsayers while appeasing the propeller heads like me:

Only poorly designed cables can be sonically distinguisable

 

[Spkr_Bldr]

... had a response typed up, but I really don't care. I don't sell cables, never will, and use relatively cheap homemade stuff myself. I won't change anybodys mind, nor will you convince me my own experiences were erronious. But at least I know I've never been offensive towards others in sharing my opinons on the subject.

I'll bow out of this and all future cable discussions on this site.

 

[3db]

Hellooooooooooooooooooooo


I gave you the underlying physical principle as to why audio cables make no sonic difference and you all chose to ignore my post. It doesn't get any clearer than that. I think it was wmax in another thread "Now this is interesting" thread and he agreed with me. If the signal going in the cable leaves the cable unaltered (unless what wmax chose to do in an experiement artificially and dramatically increase the reactive components (10000 x there distributed component values) , then there will be NO sonic difference what so ever and perceived differences are made up by the mind and not what you are hearing.

 

[Midcow2]

Cable/Wiring discussions are always interesting ...

Everyone always has something to say about cables.

I was once on a project to build a new 27 office building. I was involved in the telcommunications/communications infrastructure sub-group. It was a mutli-million dollar project. We had a weekly progress and discussion meeting with the other sub-groups. And you know what topic took the most time and had the most discussion .... NO, not cables and wiring ... but close. The color of the chairs and the type of chairs that were going to be in the cafeteria. Everyone had an opinion and everyone felt thier opinion was the most important. This cable discussion reminds me of the cafeteria chairs

Almost all wire is copper and copper has a measurable, consistant resistance based on wire gauge and distance. This are indisputable facts!

Peace and have a good day and a great weekend

 

[zhimbo]

nor will you convince me my own experiences were erronious.

Then don't call other people close-minded and disrespectful of other's opinions.

You see, you CAN convince me my experiences (and opinions) are wrong. I've been convinced of such things in the past, and can be again.

 

[fmw]

Well, I suppose the attitude here isn't all that different than avsforum afterall. I left there because I wasn't comfotable sharing my views - the chest beating blow-hards would always insist you accept what they say as fact without any reciprocity. And God forbid you disagree with them.

If you'd rather not chase off potentially valuable contributors to the fourm, you might consider softening your tone. If your ego matters more, then by all means continue.

I'm not trying to chase anyone off. I'm not a blowhard. Ego has nothing to do with my interest in writing the truth. I'm debating a position that I find incorrect and I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is. You can disagree with me all you like but making what I view as personal attacks won't sway me. I didn't call you an egotistical blowhard. I debated your words. I didn't attack you.

In the end, it appears your beliefs aren't so strong when you have to back them up with money. I will come to you to the do the tests. No inconvenience at all. I can prove my position. You can only state yours.

In case you do decide to move on, there are forums that welcome your point of view and will praise you for it rather than debate against it. Audioasylum.com is an example. Their members will hang dotingly on concepts like a wire that decreases a soundstage. If what you want is validation without a debate then I would say you probably came to the wrong place.

However, the Audioholic community is as passionate about audio as any other community. That's obvious. Why not make some posts about your area of expertise in speaker design? I would bet the reaction would be receptive and positive. It would be from me, to be sure. I've designed a few speaker systems but I'm certainly no expert.

 

[fmw]

How about you show me credible evidence that a grass fed porterhouse tastes better than grain fed? What?!?! No credible evidence? It can't possibly be true then.

That would be a matter of preference and bias. What we are talking about is audibility not preferences. You can only determine a preference by asking someone for it. You can test for audibility or other objective phenomena. Apples and oranges.

Reciprocity is the key on this debate - I respect the opinion of those on the other side, but I and other cable subjectivists don't receive the same level of respect.

I'm trying to find the post in which you showed respect for our side. Perhaps you can point it out.

I have no desire to change anybodys mind, but every time cables pop up as a topic, it's flooded by people insisting that they make NO difference, and anybody who spends more than $.39/foot for 14ga zip cord is a damn fool.

I don't want to change your mind either. What I want to do is to help newcomers to the hobby avoid the high end audio trap - a trap that caught me personally a long time ago and cost me a lot of money unnecessarily. If I seem zealous about it the reason is that I am. I wasted six figures in high end audio over the years because I had beliefs like yours. When I learned the truth by doing the tests you don't want to do, I was converted. I'm a happier audiophile because of it and I've stopped wasting money on something that doesn't matter.

You will find that I'm very consistent in what I recommend to beginning audio enthusiasts. I recommend they consider the room acoustics and speakers in their system and spend little time worrying about the rest of it. The rest of it is trivial in comparison. That advice comes from years of bias controlled listening tests, not from an opinion.

I don't care what kind of speaker wire anybody uses. My own system uses common two conductor wire. If someone could demonstrate a benefit from using other speaker wire, I would use it. I can afford what I want. But nobody can because I've already done the tests and proven to myself that competently made wires don't alter sound in a home audio system.

We say the wires make no difference because they do not make a difference. Some people believe they make a difference because their biases affect their reaction sounds they here. Actually everyone is affected by biases in their hearing. If you remove the biases, then you learn the truth. This isn't opinion. This is test results. You don't want to learn the truth and that's fine but there may be some newcomers that do. So I will continue to try to provide them with it and debate positions that I and many others have proven to be incorrect. That's about as directly as I can put it. Take care.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I guess everyone has his own pet peeves, but it never bothers me when anyone tells me he can hear the difference in any cables. I just say, "That's cool", and then go on.

Sometimes I think debating this topic of cables (and separates vs. receivers) is like debating religion and politics -- you never win.