First stage--decide on driver....need feedback.

[WmAx]

WmAx...what do you think of this review?
Seems he says there is extreme distortion in low frequences?
It's not an easy driver to find to buy online either.
Some on e-bay from retailers, but I don't know who to trust there.
It's discontinued everywhere else.
Any suggestions?

That is the 3rd party measurement I referred to earlier. It used a vastly under powered amp on a 4 ohm load(and the amp was not even rated 4 Ohms in bridged mode that it was used in the test) and the driver was used in an under sized small sealed cabinet. Even so, it still bested the hi end sealed Velodyne DD-12 under these circumstances. If you use this sub as I specify, it will perform exactly as I stated. Avaserfi has measured it's actual performance in the cabinet I recommended, and he is a 3rd party(I have no relation to him; I only know him from this site and he came across me and decided to try some of my recommendations).

The Kappa is not hard to find. Go to www.pricegrabber.com and type in Infinity Kappa Perfect subwoofer in the search engine and you will find a few online retailers selling this product.

-Chris

 

[Matt34]

WmAx...what do you think of this review?
Seems he says there is extreme distortion in low frequences?
It's not an easy driver to find to buy online either.
Some on e-bay from retailers, but I don't know who to trust there.
It's discontinued everywhere else.
Any suggestions?

WmAx posted this in another thread. Cheapest I've seen them for.
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=416327&postcount=9

 

[E-A-G-L-E-S]

The list so far:
Kappa Perfect 12 VQ
X-Over in Yamaha AVR

Now I need to choose an amp.
Also would appreciate reccomendations for design of enclosure.

 

[mike c]

amp wise

if you are looking for bang for the buck, i don't see anything better than the Behringer EP2500 right now.

the Crown K2 measures the same as the EP2500 but is at least 4x-5x the price
the Yamaha Pro Amps are about twice the price, no measurement, should have better quality than Behringer, but WmAx says the fans come on only when needed (unlike continuously on the Behringers), and looks a LOT nicer.

 

[E-A-G-L-E-S]

How many RMS watts was the amp in the ilka review sending the 12 in the too small sealed enclosure?

 

[flippo]

winisd beta

I downloaded win isd beta (free) and listened to wmax and tls guy's advice.
I went for a simple build first since I am new to wood working (reason why I didn't use aversfi's build this time). I the amp from partsexpress.com If I did it over again I would have gotten the 500 watt BASH amp instead.

 

[WmAx]

How many RMS watts was the amp in the ilka review sending the 12 in the too small sealed enclosure?

The amp was listed as 300 watts. However, when I looked up the amp and it's capabilites, it was not even rated for the load it was used on. In reality, the amp may have produced 200 watts, based on what I could put together.

I recommend minimum, 500 watts RMS for the driver.It can take substantially more than that for music program.

-Chris

 

[WmAx]

the Crown K2 measures the same as the EP2500 but is at least 4x-5x the price
the Yamaha Pro Amps are about twice the price, no measurement, should have better quality than Behringer, but WmAx says the fans come on only when needed (unlike continuously on the Behringers), and looks a LOT nicer.

Actually, the Behringer is probably better than the Yamaha when it comes to build quality and load handling performance. You have one. You should note the robust power supply, the top notch parts used through out, the excellent heat removal system, the super PCBs and the fact they are mil-spec; they have dual redundant traces and parts are soldered each at two points to two different redundant traces to ensure they are bullet proof for real world handling/abuse. The only two issues the EP2500 has are it's ugly appearance(for home use) and it's fan which must be replaced for home use due to noise.

-Chris

 

[E-A-G-L-E-S]

The amp was listed as 300 watts. However, when I looked up the amp and it's capabilites, it was not even rated for the load it was used on. In reality, the amp may have produced 200 watts, based on what I could put together.

I recommend minimum, 500 watts RMS for the driver.It can take substantially more than that for music program.

-Chris

How would one of these do?(enough juice for big enough sealed or ported box?)
-Sunfire 500w
-Bash 500w
-O-Audio 450w

 

[mike c]

Actually, the Behringer is probably better than the Yamaha when it comes to build quality and load handling performance. You have one. You should note the robust power supply, the top notch parts used through out, the excellent heat removal system, the super PCBs and the fact they are mil-spec; they have dual redundant traces and parts are soldered each at two points to two different redundant traces to ensure they are bullet proof for real world handling/abuse. The only two issues the EP2500 has are it's ugly appearance(for home use) and it's fan which must be replaced for home use due to noise.

-Chris

have you opened up your Yamaha already? what does it look like inside?

I assumed that Yamaha>Behringer in build quality, but i've forgotten that it's more like QSC>Yamaha

How would one of these do?(enough juice for big enough sealed or ported box?)
-Sunfire 500w
-Bash 500w
-O-Audio 450w

how much are those EAGLES?

 

[WmAx]

How would one of these do?(enough juice for big enough sealed or ported box?)
-Sunfire 500w
-Bash 500w
-O-Audio 450w

Those would be fine. But only go sealed if it won't be used for HT use. Music use will be fine. And if you go sealed, look to go 1000 watts minimum. Because in sealed use, one will probably want to EQ a bit, and any EQ of a sub requires a massive power increase. Remember, a simple 3db boost requires 2x the power. In any event, a proper ported will be superior, as it will increase SPL at LF and decrease distortion.

-Chris

 

[E-A-G-L-E-S]

have you opened up your Yamaha already? what does it look like inside?

I assumed that Yamaha>Behringer in build quality, but i've forgotten that it's more like QSC>Yamaha



how much are those EAGLES?

Sunfire - $90
Bash500 - ?
O-Audio - ?

 

[E-A-G-L-E-S]

Those would be fine. But only go sealed if it won't be used for HT use. Music use will be fine. And if you go sealed, look to go 1000 watts minimum. Because in sealed use, one will probably want to EQ a bit, and any EQ of a sub requires a massive power increase. Remember, a simple 3db boost requires 2x the power. In any event, a proper ported will be superior, as it will increase SPL at LF and decrease distortion.

-Chris

But I am confused. If the 12 in a too small sealed box with ~200w powering it outdid a PB13Ultra, wouldn't a 450w/500w amp in a bigger sealed enclosure stomp that?

 

[WmAx]

have you opened up your Yamaha already? what does it look like inside?

I assumed that Yamaha>Behringer in build quality, but i've forgotten that it's more like QSC>Yamaha



how much are those EAGLES?

The Yamaha looks fine inside. It's just, the Behringer is a near direct copy of, including the quality, of the QSC RMX series.

I do prefer the Yamahas though. Due to the fan and looks. The Yamaha is fine in domestic use. As you can probably tell, I have given up on 'home use'amps. So far my pro amp inventory is 1 x Yamaha P3500S, 1x Yamaha P2500S, 1 x Behringer EP2500, 2 x Behringer A500, 2 x Crown XLS202D.

-Chris

 

[WmAx]

But I am confused. If the 12 in a too small sealed box with ~200w powering it outdid a PB13Ultra, wouldn't a 450w/500w amp in a bigger sealed enclosure stomp that?

Where did you read this? That was never stated.

A Kappa Perfect 12" in a too-small sealed box with an underpowered amp out performed a Velodyne DD-12.

For the Kappa Perfect 12" to closely match and out perform in some ways, the PB Ultra 13, the Kappa Perfect MUST be used in the slot port cabinet built to my specifications and be driven by a very high power amplifier.

-Chris

 

[E-A-G-L-E-S]

Sorry for the misunderstanding on my part.
given that I can go big and ported, and that you said at least 500W RMS....would any of those three ~500w amps be enough?
Would the ouput be similar to a MFW-15 and/or A5-350?(I keep using those as reference as they are the two commercial subs I have the most first hand knowledge of)

 

[E-A-G-L-E-S]

Sonotube is a possiblity as well. I have an old friend who works for a concrete company that can get me 16" or 18" x 12' for really cheap.
Seems like a simple first build and I can go real tall for extra interior volume.
Good option or no in your guys opinion?

Also an option is three of the closeout NHT 2 subs(10") and a Sunfire 500w RMS amp for only $150+shipping.
Is this any good as an option?

Sorry for going off, but just want to make sure I weigh all my options.
Thanks for all the help guys!

 

[WmAx]

Sorry for the misunderstanding on my part.
given that I can go big and ported, and that you said at least 500W RMS....would any of those three ~500w amps be enough?
Would the ouput be similar to a MFW-15 and/or A5-350?(I keep using those as reference as they are the two commercial subs I have the most first hand knowledge of)

Assuming the 500 watt amps really put out 500 watts, then yes, they would be sufficient. I use 650 per Kappa Perfect and it's sufficient, and 500 is barely less than 650, from a log10 function basis. However, if you do plan to build a 2nd matching sub later, I would recommend getting an outboard pro amp as opposed to plate amps.

There are very limited measurements of the MFW-15 and A5-350 available. But based on those that are available, the Kappa Perfect used in a cabinet built exactly to my specification would very likely produce substantially higher output in the lowest range(20Hz range), on the order of 4-6dB higher output. In the higher bass range(30Hz on up), the SPL would be very similar. As for distortion: the Kappa Perfect VQ uses an extremely linear motor that would keep distortion lower into higher SPLs, as long as the Kappa Perfect is not operated beyond it's linear excursion range(exceeding roughly +/- 14mm will enter it's non-linear range). Due to the Perfect's linearity, it will sound essentially identical regardless if used at 85dB or 105 dB, unlike many subwoofer that start to distort substantially and exhibit compression artifacts when they are used at higher SPL ranges vs. low SPL. Again, you should refer to avaserfi, as he is a 3rd party and has measured the unit at high SPL ranges and used it in high SPL use(110+dB range). Just ask him in this thread, or via PM, if you want opinions by someone that built the cabinet to my specifications. The additional beauty of the Kappa Perfect VQ besides it's high linearity, is that it has the variable motor that can be adjusted to work in any type of bass alignment. As such, the driver has a lot of future applications if you decide to replace your sub with something else later. In fact, I would recommend getting two of the Kappa Perfect drivers, so that you can build a second matching cabinet in the future.

-Chris

 

[E-A-G-L-E-S]

Assuming the 500 watt amps really put out 500 watts, then yes, they would be sufficient. I use 650 per Kappa Perfect and it's sufficient, and 500 is barely less than 650, from a log10 function basis. However, if you do plan to build a 2nd matching sub later, I would recommend getting an outboard pro amp as opposed to plate amps.

There are very limited measurements of the MFW-15 and A5-350 available. But based on those that are available, the Kappa Perfect used in a cabinet built exactly to my specification would very likely produce substantially higher output in the lowest range(20Hz range), on the order of 4-6dB higher output. In the higher bass range(30Hz on up), the SPL would be very similar. As for distortion: the Kappa Perfect VQ uses an extremely linear motor that would keep distortion lower into higher SPLs, as long as the Kappa Perfect is not operated beyond it's linear excursion range(exceeding roughly +/- 14mm will enter it's non-linear range). Due to the Perfect's linearity, it will sound essentially identical regardless if used at 85dB or 105 dB, unlike many subwoofer that start to distort substantially and exhibit compression artifacts when they are used at higher SPL ranges vs. low SPL. Again, you should refer to avaserfi, as he is a 3rd party and has measured the unit at high SPL ranges and used it in high SPL use(110+dB range). Just ask him in this thread, or via PM, if you want opinions by someone that built the cabinet to my specifications. The additional beauty of the Kappa Perfect VQ besides it's high linearity, is that it has the variable motor that can be adjusted to work in any type of bass alignment. As such, the driver has a lot of future applications if you decide to replace your sub with something else later. In fact, I would recommend getting two of the Kappa Perfect drivers, so that you can build a second matching cabinet in the future.

-Chris

They were measured and reportedly are 500w RMS.
If, when, I decide to go bigger I will get a whole new set-up.($90 is hard to pass up)
Two Perfect 12 subs are over my current budget.
Would you be able to lay me out some plans for the amp with one Perfect 12?

 

[jinjuku]

Have you seen the Eminence Lab12 Generation II?

I believe it is $132 bucks and looks to model quite well.