Just Auditioned B&W 800D

[AcuDefTechGuy]

...his response was to hook up another amp which didn’t have the “mid bass hump” of the Denon integrated he’d been using. .

Bastards!

I cannot believe he bad-mouthed my precious Denon Integrated like that!

 

[itschris]

Wait... did you get rid of your Acurus pre-amp setup? How'd I miss that one?!

 

[AdrianMills]

Thank you!

I thought I was losing my mind!

Your B&W dealer at least had some acoustic panels and better speaker placement and proper sitting distance!

Mine had none of the above.

But the end result was very similar: Disapppointment.

I thought the 800D did NOT have enough bass for my personal preference, and I underline personal preference.

I don't know. Like you said, it must be bad room acoustics because I thought the 800Ds did not sound very good. Overall, I was VERY DISAPPOINTED.

Please believe me when I say that I REALLY REALY WANTED the 800Ds to sound like the Holy Grail of speakers. It would have given me something new to BUY in the near future.

I love GREAT speakers.

But I walked away a bit ANGRY. I did NOT walk away all smiley and happy thinking that my DefTechs were the best speakers in the world. I want something even BETTER!!! That is why I have a HT Piggy Bank. That is why I work hard. I want to buy some awesome speakers that will melt the walls and everything around it.

It would be sad to think that any $23K pr of speakers (any brand) would sound that mediocre!!!

So when I wrote my original post yesterday, I was feeling ANGRY and SARCASTIC, NOT happy.

Go find somewhere that will have the JBL Everest for audition. Trust me on this, in any reasonable room you will walk away with a silly grin on your face. They are a little more expensive than the B&W 800Ds though but it's like being in the frist few rows of a rock concert. Quite incredible.

 

[mazersteven]

Wow, I only got up to post #9 and lost interest.

 

[DD66000]

90dB w/m means it would require only 1 watt to produce 90dB. So even if I were sitting 3 meters away like I SHOULD HAVE, it would require 3 watts of power. Let's say it required TEN times that much for Dynamic power, that would still be 30 watts. Even TWENTY times that much is only 60 watts.

That's not even close, if you start at 3w and increase it 6 times, you're now at 192w. As every increase of 3db requires twice the power. As it takes a difference of 3db to detect a change in volume, either up or down.

 

[deedubb]

How any of us FEEL is just our own opinion. You may feel that the B&W's are in another league. Many others may agree with you. It doesn't make it a fact of life. You may feel the PSB are better than your BP7001SCs. That's how you feel. It doesn't mean everyone else will feel the same.

We can only express our feelings and impressions. I don't think any of us claim that our ideas and conclusions are carved in stones and must be agreed upon.

All of us will disagree on just about everything. Whatever works for you, man.

Yeah, that is what I was trying to convey when I said that *you* may feel the Def Techs sound better. I wasn't trying to put you down in any way and I hope it didn't come across that way. I indicated that the majority would prefer the B&W after a/b testing, but there are obviously some that would not. Are the 800D's 5 or 6 times better than the Def Tech's? You'll get 10 different answers if you ask 10 different people, but I would say no. I still prefer my PSB's to the 7001's, and they're cheaper and about 10 years old

 

[Seth=L]

So we did the demo of the 802D and the 804S.

The room was carpeted, and around 15 to 20m2. There were heavy drapes behind the speakers and some acoustic panels behind the listening area. We were sitting about 3m from the speakers.

You'd think that the room should have been fairly good but really, it must have been awful because the 804S sounded bad. Thin and with a midrange that seemed far too forward. On the other hand, the 802D, spectacular though they looked, sounded overwhelmed by too much bloated bass. They were definitely better in the midrange though and there was much more clarity there than the 804S.

I was very disappointed as I expected to be awed but it was obvious from the performance of the 804S that the room was playing a huge role. If the 804S I'd originally listened to had sounded like this I'd not have bought them. They sound awesome in my home. I can only imagine how much better the 802D would be considering that they were that much better in the demo room.

The dealer has offered to bring the 802D to my home for a demo - strange, as HiFiKlubben, the chain that has a monopoly on B&W in Norway, never used to allow for home demos. Maybe they've cottoned on that they have to do something to stem the ID tide.

An interesting point is that my friends with me didn’t think that the 802D had too much bass; these are 2 channel guys that don’t use bass management at all. Maybe I’m just used to a very flat FR on my sub. The dealer said that Norwegians as a general trend tended to like bass very hot; I tried to tell him that the bass wasn’t just hot but bloated and boomy and he should do something to the room to try to correct it; his response was to hook up another amp which didn’t have the “mid bass hump” of the Denon integrated he’d been using. At that point I just had to sigh and go with the flow.

The bass shouldn't be "bloated" at all on those speakers. In a properly setup system they are nearly flat (audibly flat) and they have some of the lowest cabinet resonance of any production speaker system.

 

[PENG]

Okay, I was off work today and wanted to goof around a bit so I spent 1 hr listening to the $23,000/pr B&W 800D.

My first impression: unimpressive & under whelming.

I brought along a few of my favorite CDs including Eagles, Smallvile Soundtrack, Dead Zone TV Soundtrack, & Prince.

The 800Ds were placed about 12" from front wall, 6 ft from sidewalls, and 6 ft apart from each other slightly toed-in. I sat smack in the middle & about 5 ft from the speakers.

I thought you were sitting too close, and you really cannot compare the 800D and your DefTech properly unless they are in the same acoustic envirnoment. Another thing, everything being equal (i.e. source player, amplification electronics, room acoustics) the CDs you used could properly do well with most $2K to $20K/pair speakers.

You need some serious classical music to tell those speakers apart in terms of accuracy.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Wait... did you get rid of your Acurus pre-amp setup? How'd I miss that one?!

Yeah, I'm pretty crazy lately when it comes to changing my system!

I practically changed my entire components and the rack itself! All acurus preamps are gone. Emotiva is gone. Old audio rack is gone. Now is down to Denon & Definitive. That's my new call-name. AcuDefTechGuy is not acurate anymore. It's DenonDefintive for now.

Who knows. One day, it may be ClasseB&W or KrellRevel or something else entirely.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

That's not even close, if you start at 3w and increase it 6 times, you're now at 192w. As every increase of 3db requires twice the power. As it takes a difference of 3db to detect a change in volume, either up or down.

Okay, so educate me on this. How much power would any of these speakers need given the sensitivity of 90dB w/m?

I mean including the Peak/Dynamic Power needs?

I mean if you listen @ 90dB, how much louder would you say it may get? 99dB?

Okay, so 90dB = 3 watts; 93dB = 6 watts; 96dB = 12 watts; 99dB = 24 watts? 102dB = 48 watts? 105dB = 96 watts?

Seriously, would the sound ever get above 105dB without causing hearing loss?

But I see what you are saying! Thanks!

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I thought you were sitting too close, and you really cannot compare the 800D and your DefTech properly unless they are in the same acoustic envirnoment. Another thing, everything being equal (i.e. source player, amplification electronics, room acoustics) the CDs you used could properly do well with most $2K to $20K/pair speakers.

You need some serious classical music to tell those speakers apart in terms of accuracy.

That's a good point. I didn't even think to bring my classical music CDs.

I just thought I was going to be totally BLOWN AWAY by the 800Ds.

 

[itschris]

Yeah, I'm pretty crazy lately when it comes to changing my system!

Now is down to Denon & Definitive. That's my new call-name. AcuDefTechGuy is not acurate anymore. It's DenonDefintive for now.

Hmmm... well I guess that makes me the Elite DefTech guy!

 

[AdrianMills]

The bass shouldn't be "bloated" at all on those speakers. In a properly setup system they are nearly flat (audibly flat) and they have some of the lowest cabinet resonance of any production speaker system.

Yes, I know all of this and I expected to be suitably impressed and awed but it just didn't happen. It would be understandable if someone like DefTechDude walked in there and said that the speakers were not very good.

If I hadn't had the 804S sitting next to the 802D as a reference point I'd have been confused by what I was hearing too because on the face of it, the room should not have been that bad.

 

[WmAx]

S
You'd think that the room should have been fairly good but really, it must have been awful because the 804S sounded bad. Thin and with a midrange that seemed far too forward. On the other hand, the 802D, spectacular though they looked, sounded overwhelmed by too much bloated bass. They were definitely better in the midrange though and there was much more clarity there than the 804S.

Yes, it is a good thing you had your reference(804s) with you so that you found out it was the horrible room causing the problem(s). On the other hand, now you have heard the effects (relative) of a completely non-resonant cabinet system, and how it increases clarity and timbre accuracy. Both the 804S and 802D should measure very similar, except for that aspect.

The dealer has offered to bring the 802D to my home for a demo - strange, as HiFiKlubben, the chain that has a monopoly on B&W in Norway, never used to allow for home demos. Maybe they've cottoned on that they have to do something to stem the ID tide.

I think you should take up the offer - you can't tell me you would not enjoy that.

Frankly, the 802D should provide your neutral base response. But you need to add in a precision DSP management system so that you can dial in your preferred sound. A simple Toole curve (a slight gradual taper of upper mid to treble) could be the difference between 'pretty good' and 'phenomenal'. In addition a powerful DSP lets you adjust the subjective 'tightness/signagure' of your bass response.

-Chris

 

[WmAx]

That's a good point. I didn't even think to bring my classical music CDs.

I just thought I was going to be totally BLOWN AWAY by the 800Ds.

You can put the highest quality omnipolar or monopolar system in existence into a room with cruddy acoustics, and get an end result of bad sound. Very bad sound. The 800D is one of the highest quality monopolars in production(though, monpolar radiation pattern is never preferred by me for music listening enjoyment). Even if the room had been perfect, acoustically, the only thing that would have been likely very impressive is the clarity of the neutral cabinet system. The response being as flat as it is, I(and I think honestly, most would) would find harsh/shrill on many commercial recordings if compared to an ideal Toole curve taper on the treble. One should always use a precision DSP device to dial in the exact sound the want(very easy/possible with a speaker this neutral in all respects).

-Chris

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

It would be understandable if someone like DefTechDude walked in there and said that the speakers were not very good.

Oh, I see.

So that's how it is, huh?

It's okay for the B&W fanboy to say negative remarks regarding B&W products, but it's NOT okay for a DefTech fanboy to say them.

And it's okay for everyone else to say negative remarks regarding the DefTech race?

Is that it?

So that's how it's going to be?

You guys are a bunch of racists!

It does not matter to me the brand or price of the speaker when it comes to enjoying them. It's not very difficult. If it sounds good to my hears, then I say it sounds good. If it does NOT sound good to my hears, then I say it does NOT sound good.

So since I'm a DefTech fan, I must either be a liar or 100% prejudice if I don't think that B&W speakers sound like greatest on this one audition?

 

[jamie2112]

Oh jeez are we really going to go back and forth about this audition?Thats it now I am going to go buy a pair of bose speakers now, man you guys just ruin everything.......

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

You can put the highest quality omnipolar or monopolar system in existence into a room with cruddy acoustics, and get an end result of bad sound. Very bad sound. The 800D is one of the highest quality monopolars in production(though, monpolar radiation pattern is never preferred by me for music listening enjoyment). Even if the room had been perfect, acoustically, the only thing that would have been likely very impressive is the clarity of the neutral cabinet system. The response being as flat as it is, I(and I think honestly, most would) would find harsh/shrill on many commercial recordings if compared to an ideal Toole curve taper on the treble. One should always use a precision DSP device to dial in the exact sound the want(very easy/possible with a speaker this neutral in all respects).

-Chris

And there are different levels of "listening" and "enjoyment" and perceptions of "good" and "bad".

You guys may be "Professionals" and experts and have exact notes/frequencies to listen for. Someone like me may not be looking for those precise responses. Instead, I just listen for what my non-professional/average-Joe brain preceive as "clear" sound with "great" bass.

A friend came over to listen to my speakers once. I thought the bass was very intense as the walls were literally shaking. He said to me, "Can you crank up the bass a little?"

But it's interesting that you said the sound from commercial recordings may sound rather harsh on the 800Ds since the frequency response is so flat.

And even you would admit that it is possible that you may not like the overall sound of the 800Ds. It's not because they are bad speakers. In fact, they are exquisitely-made speakers. But that does not mean you will be completely impressed with the sound. And it does not mean you will automatically think they sound better than your CHOICE of speakers, regardless of price and Reputation.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Oh jeez are we really going to go back and forth about this audition?Thats it now I am going to go buy a pair of bose speakers now, man you guys just ruin everything.......

No, actually, it was just getting WAY TOO BORING around here.

So I just had to stir something up.

But in the process, I guess I inadvertently simply proved to MYSELF that room acoustics and speaker placement CAN POSSIBLY be the MOST important factor of all.

A LOT of people have said it. But sometimes you just have to HEAR it to Believe it.

 

[itschris]

One should always use a precision DSP device to dial in the exact sound the want(very easy/possible with a speaker this neutral in all respects).

-Chris

You got my attention... can you give some recommendations of the type of DSP device you have in mind?