DACs; quality and sound

[no. 5]

But everything does not sound the same. Perhaps the components discussed here at AH are as we don't discuss all the high end tone controllers out there We leave that to AA

But if we did discuss the high end tone controls, we could vastly increase the reader demographic!

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Yes, please do that. Make sure this is the first place you stop in and tell all about it. Will I live that long to enjoy?

Only if you can live forever because that is how long it will take me to get those Mark Levinsons.

 

[TLS Guy]

Have you heard of the Stanton 681EE and the 881S? I went with the Stanton instead of the V15 at the time based on reviews but I always wonder if I should have picked the Shure instead.

In my opinion, you should have picked the Shure.

 

[PENG]

In my opinion, you should have picked the Shure.

Some little kid damaged my Stanton 881S stylus long ago. Is the V15 still available? I would like to get one and see how it compares with the DACs (PM1796).

 

[TLS Guy]

Some little kid damaged my Stanton 881S stylus long ago. Is the V15 still available? I would like to get one and see how it compares with the DACs (PM1796).

Sadly it is not. Done in by RoHS compliance because of the beryllium in the cantilever!

Fortunately I have two, and stacked up with styli under the wire.

 

[PENG]

Sadly it is not. Done in by RoHS compliance because of the beryllium in the cantilever!

Fortunately I have two, and stacked up with styli under the wire.

So you must be lauging! I just bought a new bottom of the line Project Debut III turntable that came with an Ortofon, but even my damaged Stanton seems to sound better so I am still looking for alternatives, to beat my DACs. I am hoping to pay <$150.

 

[TLS Guy]

So you must be lauging! I just bought a new bottom of the line Project Debut III turntable that came with an Ortofon, but even my damaged Stanton seems to sound better so I am still looking for alternatives, to beat my DACs. I am hoping to pay <$150.

Which Ortofon do you have? Ortofon cartridges are usually among the safer recommendations. They do have some low end cart cartridges that aren't much bottle though. Also what is your arm? You do have to pay attention to cartridge weight and arm resonance. Also this is the one area where cables do matter, as having the correct capacitative load for the cartridge is important. An obsessional set up and balancing of any turntable is of course job one. Even being a little off in setting tracking error and tracking angles really ruins the result. Turntables are not forgiving, so good results are the province of the obsessional.

 

[PENG]

Which Ortofon do you have? Ortofon cartridges are usually among the safer recommendations. They do have some low end cart cartridges that aren't much bottle though.

I have the Project Debut III. Being in the bottom end, it came complete with the arm and cartridge.

http://www.project-audio.com/main.php?prod=debut&cat=turntables&lang=en

The stock Ortofon is bottom end for sure. It actually doesn't sound too bad but the highs are slightly harsh compared to the 881S and it seems more sensitive to the record surface conditions. I tried different weights between 1.5 to 2 grams and settled on 1.75 gram. When I had the Stanton I had it set to 1 to 1.25 gram. You know I was only joking about trying to beat the DAC in my Denon 3910, but I do have a decent collection of vinyl records.

 

[Buckster]

after playing around with op-amps in small portable amps with input from my IPOD - I think as long as the DAC is decent to start with - the real drivers in SQ are the op-amp drivers and associated analogue circuitry

for instance I've played recently with a Yamaha 3800 and Arcam AV amp

Yamaha has BB 1791 DAC

Arcam has Wolfson DAC (old ish one - used on some soundcards) ...

not sure about op-amps in the Yamaha but the Arcam uses Burr Brown OP2134 s... difference in sound quality for 2 channel playback is night and day - even though the Arcam uses an older DAC, has less power amp wise, it sounds a lot better ...

 

[awdio]

So which Wolfson DACs are in the Arcam?
Just like Burr-Brown/Texas Instrument, there are various models.

Just because it's Wolfson DACs doesn't mean it's top-of-the-line, which is the same case with Burr-Brown.

I know the top-of-the-line Burr-Brown DACs are the (#1) PCM 1792 and (#2) PCM 1796. The Burr-Brown PCM 1796 DACs are in the $7,000 flagship Denon AVP-A1 Pre-Pro and $5,200 AVR-5308. The PCM 1792 DACs are in the $3,800 DVD-5910 SACD/DVD-Audio-Video player.

You have it backwards.

 

[awdio]

I think it has more to do with pride of ownership & bragging rights than anything else.

For example, does the $3,800 Denon DVD-5910 player sound better than a $800 Denon (or other brands) or even a $300 Denon? And how much better does the picture actually look in everyday application to justify the ridiculous price tag?

Insignificant differences.

Pure bragging rights.

Of course, if you can afford it, there is nothing wrong with that. Who would mind owning one?

Absolute nonsense.

 

[awdio]

In a multichannel receiver, you need 3 DACs... they handle 2 channels each and there are only 6 channels (5.1), except the 1792 which I think handles all 6 itself. The prices are for shipments of 100. That's what Denon pays for them, there's no reason to mark them up... you don't buy your receiver piece by piece. The higher-spec'd DACs match with higher-spec'd ADCs, op-amps, chipsets, etc. which is where the costs go up a bit. But ultimately, the circuitry is not the cash-centre of things. And again, it doesn't matter because the differences are still indistinguishable

You have it totally wrong. If the component runs the chips in dual differential mode it will require twice as many. Multiply that by the number of channels and the cost adds up.

 

[awdio]

For me it depends on how one tested for the audible difference. If a properly conducted bias controlled test was the methodology, then I consider the results valid. In these tests, we do a number of iterations - say 20 - with random substitutions in a manner that doesn't reveal the products to the listener other than by sound. In some cases we ask for an ID of the product. Sometimes we just want to know is this A or B? We score the results. 100% right or wrong is a gross audible difference. 50% right or wrong is purely random - no different than guessing. No audible difference. Sometimes there are scores in between - a subtle audible difference. If someone says. This "rocks" or sounds better than something else, I normally ignore it unless proper testing procedures were used. Unfortunately, people's opinions of sound quality without proper testing procedures are extremely unreliable because of bias. Extrenely with a capital E.




Another place where we could never find an audible difference was in the area of digital "jitter." We figured out how to measure it but never figured out how to hear it. So, based on that experience, I would say the same data from two different digital sources should sound the same through the same system. I would be dumfounded if that were not the case.

Well you must be and you spelled it incorrectly.

 

[killdozzer]

You have it backwards.

Absolute nonsense.

You have it totally wrong. If the component runs the chips in dual differential mode it will require twice as many. Multiply that by the number of channels and the cost adds up.

Well you must be and you spelled it incorrectly.

Yeah!!! You tell them awdio. No one will say anything you don't like 11 years go. Justice is slow as they say.

 

[sterling shoote]

I don't know much about anything and I can prove it. For sure, I have no understanding about how my audio/video equipment reproduces audio/video performances from analog or digital media. Nevertheless, even with poor hearing I am qualified to profess that the means to digital to analog conversion might be affecting the tone and this has caused me to appreciate my OPPO-205, as well as my 25 year old Sony PCM-7010F DAT Recorders, which sound very pleasant.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Absolute nonsense.

I sure miss the days when I was a moderator for Audioholics.

I would have fun dealing with these golden-ear rude people who think they’ve owned things or experienced things that no one else has.

They are the chosen ones. Geez.

I’ve owned the $3800 Denon player and separates DACs like so many people. And many other High-end components.

I didn’t hear any improvement in sound in any way with any DACs.

So I call it how I see it from my experience.

If you disagree, that fine. If you think you hear something different, you can simply voice your peaceful opinion and be a mature adult about it.

No need to be “sarcastic” and call people “absolute nonsense”.

Wait. Are you just trolling and stirring up the pot?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Yeah!!! You tell them awdio. No one will say anything you don't like 11 years go. Justice is slow as they say.

Maybe this guy is just another troll trying to stir things up.

Well, I guess it worked.

 

[Trell]

Maybe this guy is just another troll trying to stir things up.

Well, I guess it worked.

His two first posts in 2005 was sort of debunked and he waited 11 years to gather enough courage to post again

 

[PENG]

I would have fun dealing with these golden-ear rude people who think they’ve owned things or experienced things that no one else has.

Now that you mentioned this, it seems that most of those people reportedly (by themselves) seemed to own, or have owned low to mid level priced integrated amps and loudspeakers. For some reasons, they are the ones who often posted in such ways you described. You don't see much, if any, from people who owned/still own some of the slightly higher end products (hint: like you and I lol...) post in such manners..

 

[Trell]

Now that you mentioned this, it seems that most of those people reportedly (by themselves) seemed to own, or have owned low to mid level priced integrated amps and loudspeakers. For some reasons, they are the ones who often posted in such ways you described. You don't see much, if any, from people who owned/still own some of the slightly higher end products (hint: like you and I lol...) post in such manners..

But their cables are quite expensive, though