DACs; quality and sound

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I think it has more to do with pride of ownership & bragging rights than anything else.

For example, does the $3,800 Denon DVD-5910 player sound better than a $800 Denon (or other brands) or even a $300 Denon? And how much better does the picture actually look in everyday application to justify the ridiculous price tag?

Insignificant differences.

Pure bragging rights.

Of course, if you can afford it, there is nothing wrong with that. Who would mind owning one?

 

[tparmer]

Just for fun then...

Okay, this has turned out to be pretty cool for me, hearing what you guys have to say and I understand the implementation and execution of the entire component are more important then one single piece of the puzzle.

The fun part; you see the equipment I have, if your goal was excellent two channel (analog) sound as well as soundtrack playback via uncompressed audio using 1.3a HDMI, what component(s) would you buy to replace my AVR250? Keep it reasonable ($1200 and below). Unfortunately I can't also afford an Epson 1080 UD at the moment to throw a 1080p image up on my screen, but one thing at time....

Thanks!

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The fun part; you see the equipment I have, if your goal was excellent two channel (analog) sound as well as soundtrack playback via uncompressed audio using 1.3a HDMI, what component(s) would you buy to replace my AVR250? Keep it reasonable ($1200 and below).

Denon AVR-3808 for about $1,000:
http://thecameraprofessionals.com/prodetails.asp?prodid=419548&gclid=CIDc-uO1vJICFQG5PAod90X1KA

Onkyo SR875 for about $1,100:
http://www.amazon.com/Onkyo-TX-SR875-Channel-Theater-Receiver/dp/B000OBLARW?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1206109621&sr=1-1

Yamaha RX-V3800 for about $1,150:
http://www.thecameraprofessionals.com/prodetails.asp?prodid=479897&gclid=CM6b1cy2vJICFQKwPAodYiunMA

The Onkyo would have the most power output, but it may get HOT.

 

[fmw]

If it helps, our group was unable to find an audible difference between any two DAC's or CD players manufactured after about 1990, regardless of the DAC chip used or the manufacturer or price of units involved. We couldn't get a statistically meaningful audible difference between a $3500 CD player with a 24 bit DAC and a $120 portable CD player with a 1 bit DAC. They all sounded the same in bias controlled listening tests. So I wouldn't spend a second worrying about the brand of chip used in a player or receiver. It is all marketing.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

We couldn't get a statistically meaningful audible difference between a $3500 CD player with a 24 bit DAC and a $120 portable CD player with a 1 bit DAC.

That is too funny!

So I guess the only difference is the cosmetics and the $3,500 CD player MIGHT last you 20 years whereas the $120 CD player MIGHT last you 5 years or more?

 

[Joe Schmoe]

It is my understanding that even the absolute top-of-the-line DACs are trivially cheap compared to the unit as a whole (ranging from a few cents to a dollar or so.) Using them, therefore, should not effect the price at all. The cost is in the analog circuitry.

 

[tparmer]

Don't need scaling; Emotiva?

By the way, I guess if I don't need scaling/up-converting capabilities (I watch HD channels and Blue Ray DVDs) I could also consider v863, 2808, and SR805, eh? Not giving up much on the amplification side or build it appears.

...I am also intrigued by the Emotiva stuff, any of you guys have experience with their gear? The 125w (LPA-1) amp and the new processor (UMC-1) look promising. I know it'd be more money, but the power supply and build quality look impressive.

Thanks.

 

[OttoMatic]

...I am also intrigued by the Emotiva stuff, any of you guys have experience with their gear?

Well, this is the unofficial Emotiva forum. You will only hear good things here.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

By the way, I guess if I don't need scaling/up-converting capabilities (I watch HD channels and Blue Ray DVDs) I could also consider v863, 2808, and SR805, eh? Not giving up much on the amplification side or build it appears.

...I am also intrigued by the Emotiva stuff, any of you guys have experience with their gear? The 125w (LPA-1) amp and the new processor (UMC-1) look promising. I know it'd be more money, but the power supply and build quality look impressive.

Thanks.

Yeah, the v863, 2808, or 805 should do just fine.

I love the Emotiva gears! Top-notch, first-class build quality and sound quality. The amps are unbeatable IMO. I heard the pre-pros and preamp are also excellent.

Emotiva makes a variety of amps for everyone. The absolute "high-end" amp is the MPS-2, which is basically 7 monoblock amps in a single chassis design. But basically all the amps are awesome.

I wish Emotiva made a more purist traditional preamp like Bryston.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Well, this is the unofficial Emotiva forum. You will only hear good things here.

Only because it's true.

If Emotiva sucked, you would hear it LOUDLY on this forum because we Audioholics just don't tolerate crap!

Just a side note: Emotiva offers a 5 yr parts and labor warranty on all their products. So do Mark Levinson ($20,000 gears) and Krell ($10,000 gears). Bryston offers 20 yr warranty only on their analog gears, but 5 yrs on their digital gears (processors, DACs, etc.). You don't see this kind of warranty or service from Denon, Onkyo, Yamaha, Pioneer, Harman Kardon, etc.

 

[tparmer]

Thanks to you both. Anyone else care to "virtually" spend my money?

Trevor

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

DobyBlue posted this:

PCM-1791: 113dB SNR: Yamaha V1800 & 3800, Denon 3808, 4308, 5805, DVD-2930
PCM-1796: 123dB SNR: Onkyo 805/875/905, Denon 5308, DVD-3930CI, DVD-3910
PCM-1792: 132dB SNR: Yamaha RX-Z9 and RX-Z11, Denon 5805ci and DVD-5910

The PCM-1796 & 1792 are supposed to be capable of Straight DSD -> Analog conversion, whereas the PCM-1791 requires one more step: DSD -> PCM -> Analog conversion.

 

[tparmer]

Good lord, where do you find this type of information! You rock, thanks. Funny that during all this discussion I read a sparkling review of the 2808 (not even listed on your table) in Playback (online mag-associated with The Perfect Vision). I always enjoyed The Perfect Vision, guess it supports the other posts saying that DACs are only a piece of the puzzle....

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Good lord, where do you find this type of information! You rock, thanks. Funny that during all this discussion I read a sparkling review of the 2808 (not even listed on your table) in Playback (online mag-associated with The Perfect Vision). I always enjoyed The Perfect Vision, guess it supports the other posts saying that DACs are only a piece of the puzzle....

Yeah, the $750 Onkyo 805 has the "higher-end" DAC PCM-1796, while the $6,000 Denon 5805 (older model, not the 5805ci which has PCM-1792) has the "lower-end" PCM-1791.

 

[Seth=L]

That is too funny!

So I guess the only difference is the cosmetics and the $3,500 CD player MIGHT last you 20 years whereas the $120 CD player MIGHT last you 5 years or more?

I have two Magnavox CD players from 1987, they are both still running strong. I couldn't tell the difference between those and a Pioneer Elite PD-65 (1996).

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I have two Magnavox CD players from 1987, they are both still running strong. I couldn't tell the difference between those and a Pioneer Elite PD-65 (1996).

Oh, for crying out loud, man. Get rid of those antiques, will you?

 

[fmw]

That is too funny!

So I guess the only difference is the cosmetics and the $3,500 CD player MIGHT last you 20 years whereas the $120 CD player MIGHT last you 5 years or more?

The differences are mostly in cosmetics, marketing and brand name value. They certainly aren't in the performance. actually, both units were mine. I sold the expensive player (Audio Research) shortly after I discovered that it sounded exactly the same as a $250 Harmon Kardon. I still have both the Harmon Kardon and the Radio Shack portable but both of them are stored in a closet. They both function just fine. But I don't use players any longer having replaced them with Squeezeboxes for data streaming. I'm astounded anybody uses CD players any more.

 

[PENG]

Also, remember to keep some perspective on DACs. General audiophile phooey would have you believe not only that there are large, detectable differences between them, but that they constitute the whole picture of sound. The 1791 costs $2.95. The 1796 costs $3.70. The 1792 costs $14.55. Anyone who thinks that the entire sound of a $7000 piece of audio equipment is based on a $3.70 DAC is fishing in the wrong river.

I basically said the same thing earlier, but I am changing my mind a little now that I see the difference in prices between the DACs. In a multichannel situation you need quite a few of DACs in a mid end player such as the 3930. The cost difference between the 1796 and the 1792 is >$10. Say you multiply this by 4, that's $40. By the time you factor in the profit margin, this can easily add $100 for each player. The low prices you cited are probably for huge volumes, if that's the case (just guessing) and assuming Denon sells much more 3930 than 5910, the cost difference between the DACs will be even greater. There may also be cost difference between the chipset and analog circuits associated with the DACs.

I still agree the cost differential is not that significant, but it does add up to the point where Denon can justify not putting those high end 1792 in their 3930s, especially when they know full well there is no audible difference between the 1792 and 1796.

 

[Seth=L]

Oh, for crying out loud, man. Get rid of those antiques, will you?

HELL NO!

They still sound great, better than your Denon.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

HELL NO!

They still sound great, better than your Denon.

You never know. If we did a bias-controlled double-blinded study, people might just prefer those antique CD players over the new Denons.