A Civil Discourse on Exotic Cables

[TLS Guy]

Not a taste test

Choosing cables is not a taste test. This can be decided by science and didactic testing. If a cable has suitable resistance, inductance and capacitance for the task in hand it will sound neutral. It does not have to cost a mortgage to do it. Electrons are not selective. They don't alter their behavior for dollar signs.

If a cable sounds different from a competently manufactured cable from say Blue Jeans or Monoprice, then it is the odd one out. If it sounds better, then there is something wrong with the equipment it is connected to. And truthfully the high end is filled with more junk per dollar than even the other price points I so often chastise. In England where I grew up, we have a saying for it, "mutton dressed up as lamb! So that may account for your observations.

The one exception is turntables, where cables of different capacitance will affect the performance of cartridges into a given preamp significantly. However the cartridge manufacturer should carefully specify the optimal load and the cable manufacturer specify the capacitance per foot . The best do. As far as I know only the Quad 44 preamp allows you to adjust the capacitance the cartridge sees, but there may be others I'm unaware of.

 

[geffo]

Geffo,
Which audio store in Austin do you work at? I didn't think there were any 'high end' audio stores left. I can only think of one that I believe is at 183 and Lamar but that is a small store.

Depends on what you consider High End. There are still a few around: High Fidelity, Audio Systems, Sound Mind Audio, etc. I don't work for either of those...but a Store that also does Home Theater gear too. Hint Hint. We recently changed our name but same owners, same location, etc. (We didn't declare bankruptcy or anything like that, just wanted to go for a different appeal).

@Clint DeBoer:
We never sat around and tried to blind test them repeatedly, but all of the sales guys genuinely heard a difference and a few went out and bought the higher end cables that we thought sounded nicer the next day. Again, GREAT accommodation. I put some decently expensive cables on my speakers, which are older than I am - Original Allison One's with an Apt-Holman 2 channel amp. The speakers are known for their flat sound and trading cables from some bulk 16/2 seemed to help.

@OttoMatic
I followed the story about James Randi through Engadget/Gizmodo, etc when it was happening and had the same thoughts as I shared with this forum. I feel that both parties may have been a little hostile and might have been able to come to an agreement. I don't consider myself enough of an audiophile to take on a challenge like that, nor am I high enough of a profile for him to consider giving $1 million to. I do know that at least a few low key audiophiles stepped forwards (who doesn't want the chance to win $1 million for listening to music?!) but none were given the opportunity and did not "qualify" as far as I know. Statistically speaking, if Mr. Randi lets 10 average people try, and one happens to be a good guesser...bye bye $1 million. But that's besides the point. I don't know the details of the Pear cable people vs. James Randi but I would think that someone should have taken the challenge and pass or fail, we should hear about it.

 

[MDS]

Depends on what you consider High End. There are still a few around: High Fidelity, Audio Systems, Sound Mind Audio, etc. I don't work for either of those...but a Store that also does Home Theater gear too. Hint Hint. We recently changed our name but same owners, same location, etc. (We didn't declare bankruptcy or anything like that, just wanted to go for a different appeal).

After I posted the question, I thought about that store (Burnett Rd., right?) I've been in there once or twice. When I think 'high end' I generally mean stores that carry stuff that your basic big box retailer doesn't. That store carries McIntosh amps and B&W speakers and many people would consider that high end.

 

[mtrycrafts]

There you go. Gene understands perfectly and does it with fewer words than I do.

Maybe he cannot afford to use more words?

 

[highfihoney]

I am impressed that this has actually gone civilly for a few hours, so far!

I agree with everyone's viewpoints as well as appetizing images of steaks. I just wanted to clarify a few things so I do not come off as an audio snob (not that there's anything wrong with that).

1) I used the example of a $50,000 system but those are few and far between at our store. I wanted to differentiate between a Best Buy sort of set up (I used to work there, have nothing against them) and a higher end solution. Our average surround sound package with display, cables, and install runs in the $15-20k range. A $15K 2-channel system is a great system, so don't think I am looking down on other people who haven't spent as much.

4) I don't consider cables the "weakest link" by far. I believe they are very important in getting the sound you would like. I think I saw another post mention them as that and referenced the "weakest link" in passing. Not just speaker cables but interconnects as well. I go for the mid-range myself (and admittedly get a GREAT accommodation price) because it suits my needs.

5) Take up your local high end shops and ask them to put their money where their mouths are. Nothing at stake (steak?) like "If the salesperson cannot tell the difference then I should get these expensive cables for free" because that is not good business sense for them and makes you look like an ***. Really. At least ask them to give you some A/B comparisons and even bring in your own as a reference point. You might be surprised.

Brother i have a $50,000 rig along with every other type of gear on earth,tubes,solid state,vintage,hybrid, & i ive tried boat loads of cables, most of which i still have in boxes stored away,ive heard it all pertaining to exotic cables,my system is not "resolving enough",i dont know how to listen & notice changes properly,my hearing might be damaged,the gear im running dont respond well to changes in cables, yada yada yada.

Bottom line is that exotic cables ARE A RIP OFF no matter how you slice it,the sales of these things are an absolute joke,exotic cables are a slap in the face to the sensibility of the high end buyer & a kick in the nut$ of the high end industry in general.

Hifi salons who push these cables or even offer them are well versed in the custom of banging the customer out which is basically fleecing the customer for every last red cent they can get from them,a reputible salon will tell its customers to take their equipment home & listen to it for a while,then if they feel they can get better resolution by upgrading cables they can decide on exotice cables & wires,this is very seldom praticed infact allmost never,ive been in hundreds of high end shop's over the last 20 years & its ALWAYS the same,salesmen push cables on gulliable customers who have excess cash.

The only possible benifit of running any exotic cable would be a cable that was specifically designed to alter the tone of the music,then a buyer would be better off to simply buy a preamp with tone controls but thats never reccomended because tone controls are not pure,but battery pack cables are ?

Thats the end of my rant,i have about as much use for exotic cables & those who peddle them as i do a bunion on my toe.

 

[mtrycrafts]

I didn't see any mention of listening protocols. I bet it wasn't fully bias controlled, right?
Then, your outcome is no different from a good storybook, sorry.
You may want to invite Tom Nousaine to test you guys once and for all. Perhaps you might change the ending of the story?
Maybe Audioquest be interested in the $1,000,000 prize Randi is offering to differentiate it from Monster

 

[mtrycrafts]

...
We never sat around and tried to blind test them repeatedly, but all of the sales guys genuinely heard a difference .

Thanks for sharing; just as I predicted your protocol was sighted
Results are strictly unreliable Has not much meaning other than people listened.

 

[geffo]

Thanks for sharing; just as I predicted your protocol was sighted
Results are strictly unreliable Has not much meaning other than people listened.

We didn't do "blind" testing in a controlled state but I also was not the person switching the cables and interconnects. Again, it was a slow day and another salesperson wanted to show us the difference he found in 2 different cables he was auditioning for himself. Our warehouse manager would change the cables on some McIntosh tube gear and we sat back and listened. I had no visual cues to let me know which cables were being used but I still heard an audible difference and correctly identified the more expensive cables as being so. I am not sure if this is what you meant by a "sighted protocol" but I had no clues as to which cables were being used, nor did anyone else.

My main point is that music is a subjective experience to the listener, and if someone is not put off spending a percentage of their overall budget on cabling to complete their overall experience, then I don't see a problem with it. Some people will not rest until they feel that they have the best system possible. I will never tell someone that what they enjoy is wrong because I enjoy something differently than I do. My paycheck is barely effected by selling higher end cables vs. mid-level cables so that is not the issue at hand. The company I work for may make a good profit if I sell a $2,000 speaker cable but I do not personally, but that does not stop me from recommending it on an appropriate system because I believe in it myself. There will always be a market for boutique products that cost more just for the sake of costing more and catering to a rich clientèle. Nothing will ever stop that, but at least I encourage all options and self-education for the client's benefit. How many salespeople can honestly say that?

@MDS - I consider our store a hybrid custom/high end. We carry McIntosh, B&W, Classe, Rotel, Runco, Crestron, etc...but also get people in the door with a lot of video display business in competing with Best Buy, Fry's, etc. We are a custom installer with a retail presence. I like the fact that we have both but it has its limitations. Feel free to stop by and ask for me, maybe we can set up some sort of testing in the store. It is the slow season.

@Highfihoney - I am not sure which part of my previous post you are responding to...it looks like you have a fantastic setup of your own that may already be high end enough to forgo any additional benefit. Also, I am going to see BB King this weekend! It is my job to educate my clients in all areas and I have actually had some follow up and ask why I didn't sell them a more expensive cable set as they would like to get the most out of their system. What can I do about that?! If I am a Ferrari dealer and I am trying to talk someone into the spark plugs from a Hyundai, might they be a little worried? To expect high end dealers to not carry high end accessories is asking a lot.

@mtrycrafts - There were no standardized listening protocols as we were just killing some time. But, different songs were played and different ears were used and the results were unanimous. After these posts, I might try to set up some sort of more controlled approach the next slow day we get where we have the time to set up sort of an adventure! I'll try to work on that when I get some more free time. (Posting in forums counts as work, right?)

 

[fmw]

We didn't do "blind" testing in a controlled state but I also was not the person switching the cables and interconnects. Again, it was a slow day and another salesperson wanted to show us the difference he found in 2 different cables he was auditioning for himself. Our warehouse manager would change the cables on some McIntosh tube gear and we sat back and listened. I had no visual cues to let me know which cables were being used but I still heard an audible difference and correctly identified the more expensive cables as being so. I am not sure if this is what you meant by a "sighted protocol" but I had no clues as to which cables were being used, nor did anyone else.

There are only three essential requirements. One is that the comparisons must be level matched. The second is that the listener can have no idea whatsoever which cable is being used at a given time and the third is that you do a significant number of random iterations of the comparisons to get a statistically significant result.

You can believe the others who tell you that you cannot possibly succeed at such a test. When audible differences are very subtle or non existent, our brains substitute bias for the missing audible difference. If we remove all bias, we will remove all audible differences from all interconnect cables that are not made with excessively high inductance or capacitance. This has been done over and over and over ad nauseam for decades with the same results every time. I've done these tests myself and so have the Audioholics people. Literally, you cannot trust your ears if you allow bias to enter the equation. Sorry.

I don't have a million dollars to wager but I'll put up $1000 for every employee in your store that I can conduct a bias controlled test and prove what I say. I could use the money. Let me know if you want to bet. I'll come to you and do it if there are at least 4 people to take the wager. That will cover my travel expenses, time and profit motive.

 

[bandphan]

http://sound.westhost.com/cables-p2.htm another good read that puts myths in place

 

[Alex2507]

So we got this Floyd Toole guy out there who's done a bunch of tests and determined that people with undamaged hearing all pretty much agree on what sounds "good". Seems to me that if you get your hands on a cable that does "color" the sound and happens to push that sound closer to "good" in your room then we have a cable that sounds "better".

I think I would rather spend some money on one of those Beringer EQ toys to control the speakers and some more money on acoustical treatments to control the room than spend untold amounts of money for wire that controls the sound but in unadjustable way.

Please excuse me if the post sounds offensive. People with limited resources really can't afford to be misled by marketing hype that is essentially a mix of lies and theft.

 

[mtrycrafts]

We didn't do "blind" testing in a controlled state but I also was not the person switching the cables and interconnects. Again, it was a slow day and another salesperson wanted to show us the difference he found in 2 different cables he was auditioning for himself. Our warehouse manager would change the cables on some McIntosh tube gear and we sat back and listened. I had no visual cues to let me know which cables were being used but I still heard an audible difference and correctly identified the more expensive cables as being so. I am not sure if this is what you meant by a "sighted protocol" but I had no clues as to which cables were being used, nor did anyone else.

I'll try to work on that when I get some more free time. (Posting in forums counts as work, right?)

Yes, posting to websites that relate to your work is indeed work related Expands your understanding of your work and products.

Unfortunately you do need much better protocols to shed light on the issue.
You need to have a 3rd party switch cables, random order. That person needs to keep track in writing and not reveal his/her order until the end when the papers the listeners guess on are graded. The switcher cannot make contact with the listeners in any fashion, oral or visually, so you need to work out a routine of sorts when the cables are switched.
Unfortunately, to your detriment, the listener, the longer it takes to switch the worse is your memory for small real differences. Incontestable fact. One reason why you may see rapid switching mentioned.
Perhaps, some sort of switching mechanism can be set up to expedite this, or, have your business get an ABX type auto switcher and score keeper.
A business expense, tax write off.

Each person needs 9 of 10 correct, 12 of 15, or 15 of 20 trials guess correctly Historically speaking, it is guessing
Good luck.

 

[stratman]

See! And who said Audioholics aren't a bunch of civilized gentlemen?? A subject as inflammatory as "exotic" cables and no problems. This thread is exemplary, good job men.

 

[geffo]

See! And who said Audioholics aren't a bunch of civilized gentlemen?? A subject as inflammatory as "exotic" cables and no problems. This thread is exemplary, good job men.

You've just gotta warn people ahead of time in the Subject Line. All others keep out!

 

[Swerd]

You've just gotta warn people ahead of time in the Subject Line. All others keep out!

geffo

The fact that you have come back for several posts suggests that you're for real and not some shill for an overpriced cable company. We've had some of those before, and they usually post once and once only. Yes, we'll keep it civil, but I doubt if many will agree with you.

I’ve attended several DIY speaker builder meets where various amateur builders bring in their own designs for others to listen to. It’s a great way to listen and learn a lot in one day. Almost always, somebody makes an small or not-so-small mistake. Once some guy brought in his 2-way design. He had worked quite a bit on it late the night before, and he mistakenly switched the tweeter wires to opposite polarity. This makes for a steep dip in the speaker’s sound right where the crossover frequency is. The guy never noticed the difference in sound, and he was eventually embarrassed when he was shown a frequency response sweep of his speakers. Actually, it is a pretty common mistake, and many DIY builders have done the same thing too.

I’m only telling this story because earlier that day, the same guy argued strongly for the benefits of boutique speaker cables. My point is, the sound of a 2-way speaker with the tweeter wired out of polarity, while not exactly subtle, is not easily missed if you’ve heard it before. No one who argues that speaker cables can make a difference ever claims that the difference they hear is big. So why didn’t that guy hear a 10-15 db dip right around 2000 to 2500 Hz?

 

[geffo]

geffo

The fact that you have come back for several posts suggests that you're for real and not some shill for an overpriced cable company. We've had some of those before, and they usually post once and once only. Yes, we'll keep it civil, but I doubt if many will agree with you.

Agreed on the disagreement. I didn't expect to hear a lot of people come to the rescue and fight for me. I am definitely not a shill and usually side with the underdogs until proven otherwise with my own ears/eyes. If the whole world agreed on matters like this, I wouldn't have any fun! I am brainstorming my next topic: maybe power delivery systems, a la Richard Gray? (I own the RGPC1200 myself)

I never said that I heard a huge difference or that even 10% of the populace would notice a difference. But, people who sell these items should not *all* be considered snake oil salesmen for adding value to a client. Some clients demand the best/most expensive no matter what just for the very sake of having the best. This is what (sorta) makes America great. Options! I understand Audioholics mission to educate and inform but you also sometimes forget that sometimes people just want to feel like they've got the best in all aspects. This will never, ever change. Sorry.

 

[mouettus]

At my level (8K$ rig), the only thing that could make me buy a more expensive pair of cables is looks. Even though, it has to be moderately priced. Other than that, home depot rules my world. There might be a slight difference for some but as someone already stated, a good EQ is what you would want if you want to "color" your sound. I add +1.5db of treble and +2db of bass on my system and I like it that way. Spent 0.56$/ft.

 

[majorloser]

See! And who said Audioholics aren't a bunch of civilized gentlemen?? A subject as inflammatory as "exotic" cables and no problems. This thread is exemplary, good job men.

It just takes a few comments about beef to calm the savage beasts.

 

[stratman]

It just takes a few comments about beef to calm the savage beasts.

Something I'm keenly aware of!

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Stereotype: Exotic cables = Fine Dinning.

You should have never even mentioned FOOD, man. Big mistake!

Well, I think most people will agree that when it comes to cables, the 2 most important things are #1) the Connectors & #2) the Shielding. I think most cables do a great job with the Shielding part, but the Connectors are usually the problem when there is a problem.

Because of my Analog gears, I've bought like -- oh, I don't know -- a gazillion monoprice cables and banana plugs.

Based on my experience, the connectors are lousy and the banana plugs are total crap. Those gold plated connectors kept on coming loose! And as soon as I connected those monoprice banana plugs into the speaker terminals, they became instantly loose.

So I just donated all my monoprice cables and bananas to the Salvation Army and bought all Blue Jeans Cables.

A lot of people recommend monoprice, but I cannot.

Even if I could afford a $200,000 Mark Levinson/Revel Home Theater, I still would not waste money on $10,000 cables and wires. I would never buy monoprice again, but spending $10,000 - $20,000 on cables and wires is just absurd.