A Civil Discourse on Exotic Cables

[geffo]

I recently ran across the discussion between Gene of Audioholics and Audioquest and decided to add my 2 cents worth. A little background on myself: I am a 24 year old film school graduate who sells high end audio/video for a medium sized retailer in Austin, TX. My company is an Audioquest dealer. I am a very open-minded person and always go out of my way to suggest alternative options to clients and make sure that they do their own independent homework so that they are comfortable with what they are purchasing as being the best solution for their needs. I am happy to A/B cables, speakers, amps, etc with anything else they bring in and have occasionally traveled to a client's house with demo gear for comparison.

I will admit that I and my entire sales colleagues have been a little wary of some of the higher end cables. So, with extra time on our hands and a store full of high end gear, we decided to put some different cables to the test. The only form of measurement we used were our own ears as we did not care what other sophisticated devices had to say if we couldn't hear a difference. With that said, there is definitely a difference and various levels of improvement in overall sound quality even in a jump from a $1,000 to a $2,500 cable pair. But of course, we were using some of the best gear available in different setups.

I can understand Audioquest's POV in not sending someone a trial pair as a part of it may be a psychological leaning to try to debunk any myth, but an average Joe could also seek out a custom AV shop that carries the cables and ask if they would be willing to give you an A/B demo. I have had clients ask me to do this and I have always complied, but I am pretty easygoing and not a typical "used-car salesman" type. I have even set up this experiment for clients who wanted the *perfect system* and we found a good middleground of price vs. performance in all aspects of the system. I will also admit that the scientific proofs and numbers that manufacturers use are over my head so I do not attempt to sell cables based off numbers or specs, just the experience it will provide. That is just my 2 cents. If you are ever in Austin, TX, I will be happy to give you an A/B comparison with any other branded cables, lamp cord, etc.

That said, music is a very personal experience. What makes sound quality "better" to one person may not be the same for another. Rap music may sound great on one pair of cheap speakers but not on the higher end ones. Classical music may be the opposite. There are always exceptions to the rules though. I have used this analogy in the past and it works for my train of thought:

I love a good steak every now and then. When I first discovered steak at a nice restaurant with my parents, I went on a binge everywhere I could find it to try new types and cuts. At the time, this was limited to "nice" (for our family) steak joints like Outback or Texas Land and Cattle. An "expensive" steak at these places was in the $20 range average. I was in heaven. Years later as I had my own income and wanted to show off for dates, I found another level of restaurants with $40+ steaks. I learned about different cuts (Specs) of meat, cattle breeding, grazing practices, etc. After tasting a few of these, I can no longer go back to the Friday's or Outback level because my taste buds have been spoiled. But, who am I to tell someone that they are wrong for preferring a less expensive cut or location? "Taste" is subjective. And I understand the placebo effect argument, but if someone is on a placebo for pain treatment and they actually feel better...then something has worked for that person, correct? If someone can hear a difference, imagined or not, then whatever price increase their wallet is comfortable with is valuable for their level of satisfaction. If you are buying a $50,000 theater system and would like to skimp on cables as the weakest link, that's your choice, but you probably aren't the main demographic of Monoprice.com to begin with.

Just my opinion. Do with it what you may!

 

[AverageJoe]

... I have used this analogy in the past and it works for my train of thought:

I love a good steak every now and then. When I first discovered steak at a nice restaurant with my parents, I went on a binge everywhere I could find it to try new types and cuts. At the time, this was limited to "nice" (for our family) steak joints like Outback or Texas Land and Cattle. An "expensive" steak at these places was in the $20 range average. I was in heaven. Years later as I had my own income and wanted to show off for dates, I found another level of restaurants with $40+ steaks. I learned about different cuts (Specs) of meat, cattle breeding, grazing practices, etc. After tasting a few of these, I can no longer go back to the Friday's or Outback level because my taste buds have been spoiled....

It's an interesting analogy, but I'd submit that a closer comparison would be if you thought the gold fork you used at a particular restaurant made the steak taste better.

My analogy would be a glass window. Different manufacturing processes, impurities in the glass, thickness, etc. all may contribute to the way the light spectrum passes through the window, but I've never been able to see a visible difference through any clear pane. Of course, if it was tinted (just as if a cable was made to "color" the sound), it would be a different story.

 

[Exit]

It is good you can express an opinion different from the crowd. I would say that a person with $50,000 to spend doesn’t have a big fraction of his system money tied up if he buys expensive high end cables whether he hears a difference or not. It is the selling of high end (i.e. Monster) cables to those with systems under $5000 or so that is objectionable. There is likely so many areas of such systems that can be clearly improved by other purchases that excess cable expenses are just a money drain and are counterproductive to achieving optimization of sound systems for given budgets. The fact that retailers carry only Monster cables and try to push $100 plus cables on Joe Public is what tarnishes high end cables.

 

[fmw]

I recently ran across the discussion between Gene of Audioholics and Audioquest and decided to add my 2 cents worth. A little background on myself: I am a 24 year old film school graduate who sells high end audio/video for a medium sized retailer in Austin, TX. My company is an Audioquest dealer. I am a very open-minded person and always go out of my way to suggest alternative options to clients and make sure that they do their own independent homework so that they are comfortable with what they are purchasing as being the best solution for their needs. I am happy to A/B cables, speakers, amps, etc with anything else they bring in and have occasionally traveled to a client's house with demo gear for comparison.

I will admit that I and my entire sales colleagues have been a little wary of some of the higher end cables. So, with extra time on our hands and a store full of high end gear, we decided to put some different cables to the test. The only form of measurement we used were our own ears as we did not care what other sophisticated devices had to say if we couldn't hear a difference. With that said, there is definitely a difference and various levels of improvement in overall sound quality even in a jump from a $1,000 to a $2,500 cable pair. But of course, we were using some of the best gear available in different setups.

I can understand Audioquest's POV in not sending someone a trial pair as a part of it may be a psychological leaning to try to debunk any myth, but an average Joe could also seek out a custom AV shop that carries the cables and ask if they would be willing to give you an A/B demo. I have had clients ask me to do this and I have always complied, but I am pretty easygoing and not a typical "used-car salesman" type. I have even set up this experiment for clients who wanted the *perfect system* and we found a good middleground of price vs. performance in all aspects of the system. I will also admit that the scientific proofs and numbers that manufacturers use are over my head so I do not attempt to sell cables based off numbers or specs, just the experience it will provide. That is just my 2 cents. If you are ever in Austin, TX, I will be happy to give you an A/B comparison with any other branded cables, lamp cord, etc.

That said, music is a very personal experience. What makes sound quality "better" to one person may not be the same for another. Rap music may sound great on one pair of cheap speakers but not on the higher end ones. Classical music may be the opposite. There are always exceptions to the rules though. I have used this analogy in the past and it works for my train of thought:

I love a good steak every now and then. When I first discovered steak at a nice restaurant with my parents, I went on a binge everywhere I could find it to try new types and cuts. At the time, this was limited to "nice" (for our family) steak joints like Outback or Texas Land and Cattle. An "expensive" steak at these places was in the $20 range average. I was in heaven. Years later as I had my own income and wanted to show off for dates, I found another level of restaurants with $40+ steaks. I learned about different cuts (Specs) of meat, cattle breeding, grazing practices, etc. After tasting a few of these, I can no longer go back to the Friday's or Outback level because my taste buds have been spoiled. But, who am I to tell someone that they are wrong for preferring a less expensive cut or location? "Taste" is subjective. And I understand the placebo effect argument, but if someone is on a placebo for pain treatment and they actually feel better...then something has worked for that person, correct? If someone can hear a difference, imagined or not, then whatever price increase their wallet is comfortable with is valuable for their level of satisfaction. If you are buying a $50,000 theater system and would like to skimp on cables as the weakest link, that's your choice, but you probably aren't the main demographic of Monoprice.com to begin with.

Just my opinion. Do with it what you may!

The problem is that Audioquest cables and Monoprice cables are both competently made. That means that neither color sound. In fact, for a cable to color the sound requires that it have very extreme inductance or capacitance. The cables that color sound, usually have little boxes attached to them because it is hard to get enough inductance simply by winding a shield around a core to get the job done. These cables cost 4 figures per pair.

So Audioquest and Monoprice will "sound" the same in a bias controlled listening test. They will sound like nothing which is what they should sound like. I'm a veteran of bias controlled listening tests so I'm not guessing here.

If a big spender thinks he should have expensive cables (hardly the weakest link, by the way) then let him have them. I think it's a shame if the individual buys them because he thinks they will improve the system's sound but I think it's fine he buys them simply because he can or because he likes the appearance or whatever. I'm not against people buying boutique products. I'm only against the manufacturers of those products making unreasonable and false claims about them.

That's what I think.

 

[gene]

As we have always stated in the past:
Only poorly designed cables are sonically distinguishable.

That being said its usually the high $$$ exotic cables that in fact do sound different and for good reason - they are glorified tone controls.

Slapping a battery on a cable or soaking it in kosher chicken fat will do nothing for sound but boy does it sell a good story to those who aren't well versed in basic E/M theory

 

[stratman]

Steaks aren't cables. Copper is copper is copper. If you like the way the cable looks, great go ahead and spend the money. DBX is the way to go as far as a real test for unbiased comparisons. As for the monoprice/BJC etc., well my 2.0 system cost 15,000 and change, Krell/Proceed, I had very expensive MITs for cables, I switched over to less expensive BJCs, there was no audible difference between the two, yes my system might not be 50 or 100 grand, but 15 isn't chicken feed either, bottom line cables if properly designed and applied should have no sonic signature.

 

[gene]

Steaks aren't cables. Copper is copper is copper. If you like the way the cable looks, great go ahead and spend the money. DBX is the way to go as far as a real test for unbiased comparisons. As for the monoprice/BJC etc., well my 2.0 system cost 15,000 and change, Krell/Proceed, I had very expensive MITs for cables, I switched over to less expensive BJCs, there was no audible difference between the two, yes my system might not be 50 or 100 grand, but 15 isn't chicken feed either, bottom line cables if properly designed and applied should have no sonic signature.

One interesting thing to note is when someone touts the benefits of uber priced exotic cables they almost always ignore room acoustics and stress that you must have very expensive equipment to appreciate the benefit. hmmm

 

[fmw]

As we have always stated in the past:
Only poorly designed cables are sonically distinguishable.

That being said its usually the high $$$ exotic cables that in fact do sound different and for good reason - they are glorified tone controls.

Slapping a battery on a cable or soaking it in kosher chicken fat will do nothing for sound but boy does it sell a good story to those who aren't well versed in basic E/M theory

There you go. Gene understands perfectly and does it with fewer words than I do.

 

[stratman]

I wonder why??

 

[Alex2507]

I like my steaks cryogenically treated. First I freeze 'em then I fry 'em.

And if you can't taste the difference, then you don't need 'em.

 

[gene]

I like my steaks cryogenically treated. First I freeze 'em then I fry 'em.

And if you can't taste the difference, then you don't need 'em.

You haven't had a steak till you had it Argentina style. Marination before cooking is the way to go. It works for cable and it works for steaks too. Man thats good eatin!

 

[stratman]

You haven't had a steak till you had it Argentina style. Marination before cooking is the way to go. It works for cable and it works for steaks too. Man thats good eatin!

Yes siiiir! Down here we're lucky, we have a slew of Argentinian steakhouses, they're super good eatin'!!

 

[majorloser]

Beef should be well aged and served RARE!
Let that side of beef hang in the cooler dry for a couple weeks.
Then just threaten my porterhouse steak with a BIC lighter.

EDIT: Don't you just love it when the owner of the site is the one hijacking a thread?

 

[stratman]

Beef should be well aged and served RARE!
Let that side of beef hang in the cooler dry for a couple weeks.
Then just threaten my porterhouse steak with a BIC lighter.

EDIT: Don't you just love it when the owner of the site is the one hijacking a thread?

Isn't there a commercial that says "ownership comes with a few privileges?"

 

[majorloser]

Isn't there a commercial that says "ownership comes with a few privileges?"

Hey, he gives us a place to play.....for FREE!

He can do whatever he wants

 

[geffo]

I am impressed that this has actually gone civilly for a few hours, so far!

I agree with everyone's viewpoints as well as appetizing images of steaks. I just wanted to clarify a few things so I do not come off as an audio snob (not that there's anything wrong with that).

1) I used the example of a $50,000 system but those are few and far between at our store. I wanted to differentiate between a Best Buy sort of set up (I used to work there, have nothing against them) and a higher end solution. Our average surround sound package with display, cables, and install runs in the $15-20k range. A $15K 2-channel system is a great system, so don't think I am looking down on other people who haven't spent as much.

2) Steaks should be served closer to rare than anything else. Why buy a nice slab of meat if you're going to charcoal all of the flavor out? Not at my table!
Also, the best steak I've had to date is the Bone-In Rib eye at Finn and Porter (part of the Hilton restaurant) served Oscar style. Get on that.

3) I generally think of the steak analogy when I talk about the entire system to present the idea to clients that they may not know what they are missing if you limit yourself to a certain level without branching out to at least sample some other delicacies. Also, I had a nice steak last night and was munching on the leftovers as I posted. Coincidence?

4) I don't consider cables the "weakest link" by far. I believe they are very important in getting the sound you would like. I think I saw another post mention them as that and referenced the "weakest link" in passing. Not just speaker cables but interconnects as well. I go for the mid-range myself (and admittedly get a GREAT accommodation price) because it suits my needs.

5) Take up your local high end shops and ask them to put their money where their mouths are. Nothing at stake (steak?) like "If the salesperson cannot tell the difference then I should get these expensive cables for free" because that is not good business sense for them and makes you look like an ***. Really. At least ask them to give you some A/B comparisons and even bring in your own as a reference point. You might be surprised.

 

[MDS]

Geffo,
Which audio store in Austin do you work at? I didn't think there were any 'high end' audio stores left. I can only think of one that I believe is at 183 and Lamar but that is a small store.

 

[Audioholics]

Hi geffo. Cool, civilized thread.

As Gene said, the problem is that you probably did hear a difference depending upon which cables you listened to. But if we sent a particular pair to Gene and he measured them and found they were "flat" (not EQs) then I'd place a nice big wager that if you were unaware of which cables were connected (ie blind test) you could not pick them out 9/10 against 10/2 or 12/2 zip cord.

 

[no. 5]

One interesting thing to note is when someone touts the benefits of uber priced exotic cables they almost always ignore room acoustics and stress that you must have very expensive equipment to appreciate the benefit. hmmm

I was thinking about that the other day; if we assume for a moment that cables can be more than just tone controls (i.e. make music "beautifully listenable"), and place much weight on getting the right cable, but ignore the cube shaped room, the speaker cabinets that ring like a bell, and the amplifier that can't produce more than seven watts without clipping, we have done ourselves a great disservice if we want a real high fidelity system by ignoring arias where large quantifiable improvements can be made.

And I agree with you geffo, people should "sample some other delicacies"; sure 'bang for the buck' is good, but a person may find that good for the price isn't good enough for themselves.

 

[OttoMatic]

Hi goffo,

Do you know that James Randi will pay $1M to someone that can statistically differentiate "cheap" and "expensive" cables? He's tightened the rules lately to the $1M challenge (primarily because of so many people wasting his time with preposterous and previously invalidated claims), but I bet if you made enough noise, he'd let you do it.

Now don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to give you a hard time or be uncivil in any way. Indeed, I'm usually somewhere in the middle of debates regarding things having different sonic signatures and everything sounding the same. But for cables, as a EE, as well as just from a gut feel, there's not a lot of good reason for them to sound different. There's always another ongoing thread about DACs being different, and I do believe that there's enough potential difference in products and implementation for them to have a slightly different sonics. Many here would not agree with me on that point.

Anyway, what do you think of James Randi's $1M challenge? Do you think you could hear differences in a properly implemented double blind test of cables?