The wolf pack mentality/posting methods.

[stratman]

I have moved on seeing I cant win, my thread wasnt intended to invoke any arguements, I simply stated I knew some if not many dont think cables matter and knowing this why invite those people to participate in the thread?, by asking them to not participate it was my intent not to create a rant fest which people did EXACTLY THAT, offering nothing on the the true subject at hand and turning the thread into a free for all.
But sadly many cant see it that way and choose to hijack my thread and mock me, so I fought back with jokes as folks were poking fun at me so I responded in kind, big brother warned me and shut the thread down. Now I am still being slammed and thats fine but I stand by my belief in certain technology even if many dont. I can tell you now that all of this doesnt matter one bit in the big picture, becoming completely disabled by age 30 from spinal disease makes one very aware of what truely matters. Maybe my jokes brand of comedy isnt everyones cup of tea but you get to the point in life where so many things go bad you can either laugh or cry...I choose to laugh. I have been supportive, complimentary in my general participation and have helped 4 members so far in hooking up or figuring out their systems and surrently working with another member who needs to get a few things together to complete the task at hand......if I feel attacked I tend to respond in kind.
As I write this I am on my way to Hospital because of blood in my fluids so I am not even sure when I will be back here, but I hope when I return this issue is put to rest, life is too short. Chad

Hey Chad, I hope you'll do fine in the hospital. We'll be here when you get back, good luck.

 

[highfihoney]

Wolf Pack? I agree highfi. It's unbecoming and divisive. And totally unnecessary unless one baits with the precept that av gear is an "investment." That kind of fodder (not the member) is ripe for ridicule. We are here to learn and teach and experience and share...the fodder needs to be quickly dispelled...imho. John

Hi John,we all know my gear was bought as an investment but i cant help myself,if i can make a buck im on it ,if im gonna lose 1 red cent im out,no matter how bad i want the gear,i refuse to lose anything.

On the "investment" side why does that leave a member ripe for riddicule?,my entire collection was bought as an investment & has paid large dividends,larger than my cash ever could have made in a standard savings account,infact my entire main system is paid for entirely from the dividends paid on my investments into gear, with not one red cent of out of pocket cash tied up in the system,do i love audio?, yes i do but i refuse to spend a large portion of my families income on MY HOBBY,this shouldnt leave me or anybody else open to riddicule.

Financial responsibility is something in our hobby that is widely overlooked,i see nothing wrong with looking at ANYTHING expensive as a long term investment,thats what responsible adults are supposed to do,isnt it ??

Anyhow i picked you for the bulk of my response because of a few shared experience's we have had together a few years back,when we were both newbee's here & for no other reason

When I first came to this site i remember a thread both you & I were part of,the thread was about how tube gear sounds,it was a simple question asking what the traights of tube gear were,the thread was not getting any responses that answered the OP's question,only the usual rehetoric from those with zero experience (except google) with tube gear

I answered this thread with direct responses to the question in the thread & i received my very 1st positive feedback, saying thank you for clearly answering the OP's questions,the very next post in that thread was from the biggest hunter of them all & the master of lighting fires,with a never ending cycle of answering a question with a question & steering the thread into different avenues of discussion not relevant to the OP's question.

Remember my old signature?? where i used to list my equipment collection,even though i never mentioned my gear it was pointed out by the hunter,he allready had a preconcieved notion that anybody with high end gear was outta their mind,he light the fire by saying & i quote "JUST LOOK AT HIS SIGNATURE",followed by the usual grinning smily face ,he then further asserted that i must believe in snake oil gold plated botique cables even though no mention of cables was made in the thread,that is what baiting is & that is what preconceived notions are,both of which suck.

It took 6 months for this member to stop talking about my ( Monster amps) at every turn, AND it took you to call him on it for him to stop,not that i gave a hoot (still dont) but it was nice that somebody noticed i was being baited constantly.

After being baited/lead then attacked so many times i got a bad attitude twords most here, weather they deserved it or not, so i can fully understand why new members like Chad lash out,i dont condone it but i do understand it.

This same member joined the Chad thread, even though through his entire time on this site he has never not once shared with the group what gear he owns or shared how much he has spent on anything,if asked he will always respond that is "irrelevant",why would a member who refuses to ever answer what equipment/cables/speakers or any other gear they own respond to a thread that asks "How much have you spent on cables" when they have no intention of ever answering that question to any degree in any form.

To me the answer is obvious (target acquired & locked),im not blaming anything in the Chad thread on this member either,infact he kept his cool more than all others,im just pointing out the motive for some to even join a thread in the first place weather they realize it or not,something for everybody to think about,it may require looking deep inside one's self to answer the question of "why do i join these threads in the first place" but it is needed.

At no time am i excusing Chads comments in any way as that is not my intent,to that i will respond seperately.

Great day to all

 

[majorloser]

I still like ya' HiFi.....even though you like Mac


On the investment thing, electronics can be a good investment. There's somes of good gear out there on the second hand market that can be turned around for a good profit. You've taught us all that lesson. Pawn shops used to be a great way to pick up exotic gear (till Ebay entered the scene).

But I'd never say cables are an investment.

 

[highfihoney]

My fear is that this site becomes clique ridden, that doesn't help us, our hobby and the a/v community

I saved the best quote for last & the quote that is directly at the heart of my point.

For lack of a better way to describe what im thinking ,WE the senior members at AH pretty much control these forums,with adult supervision from the mod's of course but still were pretty much the driving force here,when multi thousand post count members act the way as some have it's not a good sign,more & more of us are falling into the Clique mentality.

 

[Johnd]

Hi John,we all know my gear was bought as an investment but i cant help myself,if i can make a buck im on it ,if im gonna lose 1 red cent im out,no matter how bad i want the gear,i refuse to lose anything.

On the "investment" side why does that leave a member ripe for riddicule?,my entire collection was bought as an investment & has paid large dividends,larger than my cash ever could have made in a standard savings account,infact my entire main system is paid for entirely from the dividends paid on my investments into gear, with not one red cent of out of pocket cash tied up in the system,do i love audio?, yes i do but i refuse to spend a large portion of my families income on MY HOBBY,this shouldnt leave me or anybody else open to riddicule.

Financial responsibility is something in our hobby that is widely overlooked,i see nothing wrong with looking at ANYTHING expensive as a long term investment,thats what responsible adults are supposed to do,isnt it ??

Anyhow i picked you for the bulk of my response because of a few shared experience's we have had together a few years back,when we were both newbee's here & for no other reason

When I first came to this site i remember a thread both you & I were part of,the thread was about how tube gear sounds,it was a simple question asking what the traights of tube gear were,the thread was not getting any responses that answered the OP's question,only the usual rehetoric from those with zero experience (except google) with tube gear

I answered this thread with direct responses to the question in the thread & i received my very 1st positive feedback, saying thank you for clearly answering the OP's questions,the very next post in that thread was from the biggest hunter of them all & the master of lighting fires,with a never ending cycle of answering a question with a question & steering the thread into different avenues of discussion not relevant to the OP's question.

Remember my old signature?? where i used to list my equipment collection,even though i never mentioned my gear it was pointed out by the hunter,he allready had a preconcieved notion that anybody with high end gear was outta their mind,he light the fire by saying & i quote "JUST LOOK AT HIS SIGNATURE",followed by the usual grinning smily face ,he then further asserted that i must believe in snake oil gold plated botique cables even though no mention of cables was made in the thread,that is what baiting is & that is what preconceived notions are,both of which suck.

It took 6 months for this member to stop talking about my ( Monster amps) at every turn, AND it took you to call him on it for him to stop,not that i gave a hoot (still dont) but it was nice that somebody noticed i was being baited constantly.

After being baited/lead then attacked so many times i got a bad attitude twords most here, weather they deserved it or not, so i can fully understand why new members like Chad lash out,i dont condone it but i do understand it.

This same member joined the Chad thread, even though through his entire time on this site he has never not once shared with the group what gear he owns or shared how much he has spent on anything,if asked he will always respond that is "irrelevant",why would a member who refuses to ever answer what equipment/cables/speakers or any other gear they own respond to a thread that asks "How much have you spent on cables" when they have no intention of ever answering that question to any degree in any form.

To me the answer is obvious (target acquired & locked),im not blaming anything in the Chad thread on this member either,infact he kept his cool more than all others,im just pointing out the motive for some to even join a thread in the first place weather they realize it or not,something for everybody to think about,it may require looking deep inside one's self to answer the question of "why do i join these threads in the first place" but it is needed.

At no time am i excusing Chads comments in any way as that is not my intent,to that i will respond seperately.

Great day to all

Hey highfi.

I have read all you've written. I agree with your posts. And yes, I remember when we were both new here. Fond memories. You have a lot to contribute, and you are the most adamant mac and tube fan I know. You've got some beautiful equipment. You go against the grain (most of what is owned here is not tube)...and I respect your knowldege and experience with tube equipment as well as vintage equipment. So, by extension, I also respect this thread of yours. I had my first amplifier back in the 70's. Fond memories again.

I, however, choose not to remember those single posts that run errant. Why would I...to what end? They occur, and usually the best thing to do is steer clear. They are not important and serve no purpose. A short memory serves one well at times in life.

Baiting? I know it occurs occasionally...I usually drop out of those threads quickly. I hear what you're saying...but I really don't get involved in that type of thing. Not to drive a thread into the ground anyways.

I respect the fact that you're speaking out against a not so good thing. And that you have run to the defense of Chad (don't interpret that the wrong way...it is meant only in a positive light). You too have singled me out (Chad has done the same). You make me feel important. I'm kidding. Sometimes the brevity of my writing carries a real sting: I know that. I do.

Just understand that I made no personal attacks on Chad in that thread (other than spelling/grammar/composition...always fair game ). Therein is the difference. I posted first because I thought it ludicrous that one call cabling an "investment", that there was such importance placed upon cabling. Of course one needs decent cabling, and I'm up for discussions about it. That's my opinion after decades in the environment, and my reading here. I deem that opinion of some value, as I do most opinions. However, by far and away most gear will never be worth half of msrp as soon as it is used. Esoteric and vintage equipment is different: you are the best example of that here. Anyone that has read your posts knows you are into quality equipment...and the use and preservation of such. You're a rare breed in this digital age. But come on. A thread entitled "Cable Investments" is destined for some fun...is it not? Were the op to back down from that position, and that anyone that doesn't realize the value of $2,000.00 worth of cabling is a -----. Well, you get my point.

I meant what I said: I carry no ill will, and these things are quickly forgotten: they need to be. I cannot speak to others' motives. I take no joy in following posts with drivel and fodder. I know you are not excusing Chad's personal attacks...for they cannot be excused. Coupled with the haughty language and take no prisoners attitude is what got the thread in a downward spiral I think. So the pm to Chad, if I could be so arrogant, is to:
1) drop the personal attacks...unless you can take the heat;
2) be plainspoken in the thread with minimal inference and subjectivity toward others' opinions and equipment; and
3) when the heat gets too hot, drop out of the kitchen rather than flame the fire. The latter makes it just too easy...it just sucks all the fun out of it.
Were these things avoided I can't help but think the thread would have remained more on track. Worst case, it would have fizzled out with the last word not going to Chad. And it would have been soon forgotten.

Finally, perhaps Chad could do a little soul searching and reflection on the things he's posted about me in my threads...and other threads. I am a pugnacious cuss...I'll be the first to admit it...but it is rare that I get personal...truly personal. And I'll repeat myself again, it is from our differences in life that most can be learned. If Chad were to take a step back, on the outside looking in, I think he can see how he almost invited the responses he received. If he is to come to terms with that, an understanding of why it took the direction it did, future avoidance of that kind of quagmire is an almost certain thing. Either way, in all other threads, this is already forgotten for me, and I welcome chad back asap. We ought to be able to have our differences and still get along and communicate civilly with each other. A good weekend to you, Chad and all other members. Cheers, John

 

[highfihoney]

I dont want to have the last word in this thread nor do i want to beat a dead horse,it's not something im trying to win,or desire to win for that matter,i just wanted to say that i read everybodies responses & understood them all.

 

[Halon451]

??

You don't Rob? Maybe your skin is as thin as an onion's, and you're one of those that need to grow a thicker one. Just kidding.

You'll get no argument from me on that one, steam vent or not. But let's face it, who's of limited intelligence whence the archaic, non-psychiatric (DSM IV) term "retarted" is strewn about? Attacks such as those are deserving of some retribution, are they not? Justice does not truly exist, but we can attempt some sort of close approximation...no?

Psychology major are you (DSM IV)? Well, I can assure you, my skin is as thick as they come... you can't spend 8 years in the navy without developing a good suit of armor.

 

[Halon451]

I dont want to have the last word in this thread nor do i want to beat a dead horse,it's not something im trying to win,or desire to win for that matter,i just wanted to say that i read everybodies responses & understood them all.

HH - this is a very good thread, and I think everyone here understands that you're not trying to have any kind of last word or win the battle, because really there is no battle to be won here. I think this is a good thread because is has made all of us think about our actions, not just Chad in the cable thread - as you have stated; this is a trend and has become apparent in many other threads and posts on this forum. It's easy to get sucked into the moment and rally around an injured fawn, even when he (said fawn) has brought about the fangs you speak of. It should be up to people to take the higher road in situations like this and I will readily admit that I've been guilty of jumping down people's throats as much as anyone else, and justifying myself in doing so. While I still won't come down from my principles and remain adamant that insults and name-calling should not be tolerated, I suppose I have been guilty of attempting to eradicate such activity by participating in the same kind of activity. Such a vicious cycle...

As a fairly new-ish member myself still - as compared to many of the multi-thousand post guys, I spend most of my time on this site enjoying the good banter, humor and wealth of information and knowledge that is everything AH. Someone said a while ago (I can't remember who) that this site is a playground for grown-ups who truly have a passion for A/V, and that is what it should be. I would absolutely hate to see a new member come into this site and leave disgusted, because it would mean that the true beauty of this site had been eclipsed by foolishness that everyone here can either give in to, or rise above.

Let us all take the high road then, that we are all capable of...

As for Chad - I hope that we can all reel things back in and come back to a sense of equilibrium. I have enjoyed your other posts thus far, the cable thread just kind of shocked me, but like others I am over it, and hope to move on, in a new direction and continue to learn and grow and help others in the process. I hope your red chicklet turns to green again soon.

We will have our disagreements on this site - you can believe whenever the subject of politics or racism or religion factor into the equation, things are likely to get messy. But I will do what I can to respect others opinions, so long as they are respecting mine - as it should be.

If this was indeed a schoolyard playground, we would all surely be in detention by now.

 

[chadnliz]

Well I am back having testing done and some meds to take, I will have some follow up later, thanks for all positive thoughts. Chad

 

[Johnd]

Well I am back having testing done and some meds to take, I will have some follow up later, thanks for all positive thoughts. Chad

Take care and godspeed Chad.

 

[Halon451]

Take care and godspeed Chad.

I echo that.

 

[Thaedium]

It has been my experience that all people at one point or another get heated when discussing, or reading topics that they are passionate about. Everyone that posts fairly regularly on this site has a vested interested in audio, and all of the topics therein.

When new threads are started, most regulars check in to read the content. If it is not their cup of tea, they usually don't post a response. Only when friends have made comments that interest them do they get involved in such a thread that does not inherently interest them. I'd argue that this is not wolf-pack mentality, but simply friendly famiiarity and banter.

The onus is on the OP of a thread to get the ball rolling in the right direction, and this can only be achieved through a well thought-out and constructed thread topic, and initial post. Aberration's to the spirit of the intended topic, especially constructed by the OP in the title and initial post, that can easily be perceived as the true crux of the position of the thread will undoubtedly be followed-up and discussed by people. The responses to these aberration's does not necessarily constitute trolling, or thread hi-jacking. Failure on the part of the OP to get the ball rolling in the right direction from the onset will always result in a convoluted and distorted thread. Which in itself is inherently prone to heated debate, topic conversion, and arguments.

I read the most recent cable thread debacle that got canned by the mods. This is a case and point example of why and how a thread can easily get derailed based on poor construction and composition in the first place. I'm not pointing the proverbial finger at the OP and saying he brought it on himself intentionally, I'm simply saying that it happens, and will continue to happen fairly regularly any time a thread starts off as convoluted as it was.

Now I realize HH that that aforementioned thread was and is not the thrust of your discussion here, you have made that abundantly clear. It is merely my position that a perceived wolf-pack and intentional and systematic witch-hunt regularly occuring on Audioholics forums is just that, perceived. I would say that your time and experience on this forum has allowed you to make certain inferences on a number of other regular posters here that escape the newer posters here such as my self. That said, I believe that the internal dynamics and politics of the more experienced and long time posters of this site completely evade the visitors, and new guys such as myself for the most part, and don't actually ruin the experience for us at all.

In any case, threads such as these don't hurt a thing, they just help remind us that when you are writing down questions, opinions, and facts that it is really important to ensure your composition and approach are clear to all in order to avoid confusion and trainwrecks. It is not as if I can speak to you in person, pick up tonal cues and body language to determine what exactly it is you are saying.

 

[mustang_steve]

I didn't read this thread, but I can say that cable threads are one of those "edgy" subjects, since in some ways it also attacks a person's buying senses....we have to keep that in mind as well.

I have more I can go on about the debate, but I think it might piss people off, so it's best left alone. Either way, cable debate threads should always be steamvented....they are pretty much a miniture volcano waiting to erupt.

 

[Johnd]

I didn't read this thread, but I can say that cable threads are one of those "edgy" subjects, since in some ways it also attacks a person's buying senses....we have to keep that in mind as well.

I have more I can go on about the debate, but I think it might piss people off, so it's best left alone. Either way, cable debate threads should always be steamvented....they are pretty much a miniture volcano waiting to erupt.

Stevo: sometimes "pissing people off" is the only way to get the job done.

Truth be told, just about any topic here (as we're all audio nuts) can be turned on its edge, not just cabling. At some point, when the venture becomes fruitless, we just move on to the next topic. Tomorrow's a new day. Cheers.

 

[highfihoney]

Now I realize HH that that aforementioned thread was and is not the thrust of your discussion here, you have made that abundantly clear. It is merely my position that a perceived wolf-pack and intentional and systematic witch-hunt regularly occuring on Audioholics forums is just that, perceived. I would say that your time and experience on this forum has allowed you to make certain inferences on a number of other regular posters here that escape the newer posters here such as my self. That said, I believe that the internal dynamics and politics of the more experienced and long time posters of this site completely evade the visitors, and new guys such as myself for the most part

I read your whole post & was going to write a response but i think dragging this out in public would be childish on my part,i will send a pm instead.

And for those reading it's not going to be a mean spirited pm

 

[chadnliz]

I am glad this looks like it might be clearing up but I think I may drop out of the club, Audioholics has advised people to ignore me under my participation tachometer, so whats the point in sticking around? Chad

 

[stratman]

I am glad this looks like it might be clearing up but I think I may drop out of the club, Audioholics has advised people to ignore me under my participation tachometer, so whats the point in sticking around? Chad

Hey don't take that personally Chad, frankly the chiclet thing is just silly sometimes. There's been members here before that totally ignored the tide as it were and the red chiclet disappeared mighty quick, besides HH won't be happy if you leave!

 

[Sheep]

My problem with people posting anything they want, is it will be read. If you're going to throw around a subjective opinion, you must be willing to be wrong. Defending the unproven is a touchy area, and some many believe every word of what you're saying. If you're not right, your wasting other peoples money. Thusly, why people contest on forums. To weed out the good advice from the bad. Making friends is great, but not at the expensive of accuracy and truth.

SheepStar

 

[Johnd]

I am glad this looks like it might be clearing up but I think I may drop out of the club, Audioholics has advised people to ignore me under my participation tachometer, so whats the point in sticking around? Chad

"What's the point in sticking aound" chad? If you have to ask that, I feel compelled to tell you: to learn and stay current. The av environment change daily: there are always new things being developed or tossed around.

If your only reason in being here is to be heard, then you are missing out on the biggest advantage of this site...learning. Whether that be through the reviews, the articles or the forums, much can be learned here. And I've certainly learned one thing in life: not much "lernin's to be had" when one is only talking. Not a shot at you, but a truism nevertheless.

 

[mustang_steve]

Stevo: sometimes "pissing people off" is the only way to get the job done.

Truth be told, just about any topic here (as we're all audio nuts) can be turned on its edge, not just cabling. At some point, when the venture becomes fruitless, we just move on to the next topic. Tomorrow's a new day. Cheers.

True, I'm just trying to avoid having this thread go the way the one that inspired this thread went....I can be quite abrasive with my words at times.

Really to me, if it's not measurable within audio frequencies, or an octave thereof (for those that claim to have ears of god or some spiel), it's irrelevant and not worth the cash.

The only way I can see a cable making any difference is in an analog design, and that's through different impedance values....that would affect the way the electrons flow, and thus the sound (but to what extent is arguable as well).

I just don't get the "mysticism" you see about how one cable is designed with "insert some weird theorem here" or other "exotic sounding" methods. This is a world founded on science, and everything that happens here has a logical and predictable explanation (although we may not have stumbled across the answer yet)....but if we have stumbled upon something different, we have to be able to prove it's that way...I never see this in the cable market. It's all word of mouth.....yes most of these exotic cable people have amazing systems, but I highly doubt it's the cables (one day if I ever get the gall, I'd love to replace all the cables in a system like that with some phoenix gold car interconnects or some of my hand-rolled cables ($4 for connectors, and 19c/ft for a stereo pair...how's that for reasonable?) and see if they notice the difference).