The wolf pack mentality/posting methods.

[highfihoney]

Im getting a awfull taste in my mouth as of late from the bait & hook/ looking for an argurement methods of some members lately,the cable thread is a good example but only the tip of the iceberg,it's still being talked about by the anti cable clique so lets talk about it,in it's own thread.

Im seeing lot's of trolling & thread hijacking in every cable or high end thread,everyone of you guy's ask yourself this,what brought me to the cable thread,was it my intent to join the thread & offer something or was it my intent to look for anything i could leap all over,with most posters in the thread it's the latter.

When i look at the members who joined that thread & started bashing it's clearly evident to me by looking at past posts & threads joined by these members that the sole intent as of late is to argue,by joining threads that they have no plans to offer anything other than rehetoric.

With me this isnt about cable X vs cable Y,i could not care less about cables & everybody here know's that,with me it's about being a decent friggen human being,not hunters who feed off each other,then wait for the group reaction to start the usual banter.

I realize this is going to be a touchy thread so let's try & keep it civil so it dont get locked down.

 

[Davemcc]

I guess some people are just a little more vigilant in defending the by-line at the top of every page in this forum, "Pursuing the truth in audio and video". I don't take part in any of the threads that you are referring to, but as yet I haven't seen any of the "cable improvement" advocates offer any hard evidence that cables (of appropriate size for usage) will improve sound. Park me in the sceptics camp. When a poster claims to hear an audible difference when swapping power cords, that audible difference should be measurable in some way. Otherwise, it's just opinion, perception or self-fulfilled expectation.

I also think it's valid for claims made on an open forum to be challenged and defended, lest any newbie drop in and mistakenly think that these unchallenged claims are gospel.

 

[Johnd]

I agree with you highfi. This is an ever-evolving technology, and we can learn much from each other. That is my purpose in being here. And it is important to keep it fun.

Let's separate the Steam Vent from other threads, as we are afforded some latitude there. I think the mods do a good job here in keeping things under control in that rare instance (relative term...there are sooo many posts here on a daily basis) when a post becomes offensive or simply bashing.

Wolf pack? I couldn't agree more. I believe one should be willing to stand his ground alone...if others care to chime in, so be it.

Specifically, Chad's thread on cabling got out of hand. The mods shut it down after some offensive posts were made, and that poster was warned. Oddly enough, I got into the thread late in the game, yet I was the only one singled out by Chad. I wonder why that is?

I have nothing against him. He even egocentrically took credit for one of my threads a while back, stating that "he was the reason why I started the thread." Untrue. I did not reply. My thread never alluded to him, never linked a thread or post of his, or anything. He happened to be the last member to question the purpose of rankings...I thought that funny, as I did the previous members who thought the same, and I started a thread in the Vent. Not vindictive in nature, nor pointing any member out. Yet Chad chimed in with a derogatory post, to which I did not reply.

Sometimes a short memory and healthy sense of humor will aid us all here, and in life. I hold no grudges, and appreciate the input I receive from other members.

Wolf Pack? I agree highfi. It's unbecoming and divisive. And totally unnecessary unless one baits with the precept that av gear is an "investment." That kind of fodder (not the member) is ripe for ridicule. We are here to learn and teach and experience and share...the fodder needs to be quickly dispelled...imho. John

 

[Johnd]

I guess some people are just a little more vigilant in defending the by-line at the top of every page in this forum, "Pursuing the truth in audio and video". I don't take part in any of the threads that you are referring to, but as yet I haven't seen any of the "cable improvement" advocates offer any hard evidence that cables (of appropriate size for usage) will improve sound. Park me in the sceptics camp. When a poster claims to hear an audible difference when swapping power cords, that audible difference should be measurable in some way. Otherwise, it's just opinion, perception or self-fulfilled expectation.

I also think it's valid for claims made on an open forum to be challenged and defended, lest any newbie drop in and mistakenly think that these unchallenged claims are gospel.

I agree Dave...I am a sceptic as well. Assertions must be questioned and challenged, especially those that go against common thinking/practices. That is a large part of the purpose here...I believe.

"Just an opinion?" I tend to value everyone's opinion as worthy...until they or others make plain it is not. An opinion is a valuable thing...until proven otherwise.

 

[bandphan]

im all for open debates, higher learning, and the ability to pass knowledge along. I think we all knew where chads thread would go, even if it wasnt his intent. Its clear that the majority of "regular" posters have very narrow minded thought process regarding speaker manufactures, cables, subs, and power. I understand that one has an inherant desire to have the best that one can afford, but bewiddling others for spending more is just child like. HH hit it on the nose, there have been alot trolls lurking, and being somewhat new to these forums, I understand the trolls ability to light the fires is made eaiser by said narrow mindedness. Some one mentioned that chad was a troll, that he is NOT. Hopefully the debates wll continue, and the quality will remain high.

 

[Halon451]

Hifi, I do agree with you wholeheartedly, but I feel that you omitted the one thing WRT the cable thread that pushed it beyond the realm of spirited debate and unleashed the venom. The OP in that thread had no right to begin bashing other members and talking down to those who don't use high-priced cables (many, including myself have a limited budget for A/V gear to begin with, so I stick with what works), and as I had mentioned, even if I did have truckloads of money, I still wouldn't purchase those fancy cables because it just doesn't make any sense. But the OP felt it necessary to infer that anyone who thought with a degree of logic on the matter wasn't worthy enough to contribute to the discussion in the first place.

Now, I am always open for a good, spirited debate - I think it's the mother of all innovation and fresh, new ideas; however, in this case the only inevitable outcome was a public outcry and subsequent bashing of the OP. For my part in that I have no apologies. I think he got his just dessert.

The great thing about this forum is that it is comprised of people from all walks of life, all demographics, and just about every tax bracket. There are those who get by on "budget" low-cost systems that contribute as much as those with very high-end gear, but yet - nobody is looking down at anyone else because of what they own or do not own. This is one of the reasons I became a member in the first place. I like to think that we're all basically a bunch of real, down to earth folks here who all greatly enjoy the A/V experience and who choose to make it their hobby.

To boot - most of us here are also very intelligent and as such, with most intelligent people, they are going to have a strong opinion, especially down here in the Steam Vent where the topics are as varied as anywhere else.

Nobody here is looking to gang up on anyone else - I truly feel that as a whole, we're a great big group of strangers who are also friends, who are at times - in discord with one another, but that's simply life. You can't please everyone 100% of the time, so anyone with moral character will stand on his principles and defend themselves and others against vicious uncalled for attacks by someone merely looking to invite controversy and argument on a subject that has been rattled about for years.

There is no wolf pack mentality - just a group of people who don't like being pooped on. I sincerely hope the OP of the cable thread understands this, and that his words were what brought about the chain reaction that followed, and precluded any sort of real debate from developing. I don't see how he, nor anyone else could have expected any different than exactly what happened.

Matt34 did a great job of shutting it down before it got out of hand, and even in one of my last posts I indicated that the point had more or less been made already, everyone got their 2 cents worth in and then some, and there was no more real merit to be had by continuing to bash the OP. In short - I think he got the idea that he had committed a foul, even if he didn't come out and admit it.

Cheers,

 

[Halon451]

I guess some people are just a little more vigilant in defending the by-line at the top of every page in this forum, "Pursuing the truth in audio and video". I don't take part in any of the threads that you are referring to, but as yet I haven't seen any of the "cable improvement" advocates offer any hard evidence that cables (of appropriate size for usage) will improve sound. Park me in the sceptics camp. When a poster claims to hear an audible difference when swapping power cords, that audible difference should be measurable in some way. Otherwise, it's just opinion, perception or self-fulfilled expectation.

I also think it's valid for claims made on an open forum to be challenged and defended, lest any newbie drop in and mistakenly think that these unchallenged claims are gospel.

True Dave, every word - but the point I keep trying to make is that the thread could not have possibly been merely about high-end cable vs. practical cable, because of the OP's initial attitude right from the get-go. I too am a skeptic, but I don't like being called "mildly retarded", nor hear anyone else being called as such because of their opinion, you know?

 

[majorloser]

Some one mentioned that chad was a troll, that he is NOT.

He has a strange way of showing that he's not a troll.

Having greater knowledge of the subject matter does not give one the right to belittle and insult others. And that goes for both sides of the debate.

I think more people need to learn to accept constructive critisism and be capable of presenting verifiable facts when entering a debate. When we don't have the facts, accept that your comments are just opinions or hearsay.

Faith is only truth to the believer.

 

[Johnd]

True Dave...but...I don't like being called "mildly retarded..."

??

You don't Rob? Maybe your skin is as thin as an onion's, and you're one of those that need to grow a thicker one. Just kidding.

You'll get no argument from me on that one, steam vent or not. But let's face it, who's of limited intelligence whence the archaic, non-psychiatric (DSM IV) term "retarted" is strewn about? Attacks such as those are deserving of some retribution, are they not? Justice does not truly exist, but we can attempt some sort of close approximation...no?

 

[Johnd]

He has a strange way of showing that he's not a troll.

Yes.

Having greater knowledge of the subject matter does not give one the right to belittle and insult others. And that goes for both sides of the debate.

Yes again majorloser. An eye for an eye, and be not the first to cast the stone, lest...

 

[stratman]

Listen, the fact that this site is the best on the net for anything a/v is due to member participation, which includes passing info as accurately as possible, stating known truths in regards to a/v, giving an OPINION and stating it as such, calling a duck a duck and a total disdain for the known falseness that unfortunately plagues certain segments of our hobby. When knowledge/info is required there are plenty of folks that can help, for Pete's sake we have engineers here, so when a thread resorts to bashing, name calling and open hostility it doesn't help OUR community (every a/v'er out there that comes here to drink of the waters of knowledge), I've never seen this site ever get bashed anywhere so we're respected. Chad's thread obviously got out of control, it won't be the last time either that a thread gets a bit hot, everyone around here is passionate toward this hobby to some degree or the other, so disagreements will evolve, not everybody knows how to express themselves accurately either. Seriously, human interaction says many things a computer post can't, those that are a bit more "sensitive" might take things differently than what someone suggested and feel slighted, there's never a need to belittle, insult one's intelligence or just be unpleasant. And I guess the wolf-pack mentality arises out commonality, when people openly share the same ideals in regards to certain elements in this hobby (ie cables) you know that the discussion will start. There's nothing wrong with that, what must be tempered is the spirit in which the discussion is carried out, the now infamous thread could've continued if the tone was kept spirited but neutral. As to members being "requested" to keep out from threads, that's utter nonsense, everybody has a right to join a discussion, those that do it for the wrong reason usually get called on it, I've seen it plenty of times. If it gets out of control I've seen the mods step in. My fear is that this site becomes clique ridden, that doesn't help us, our hobby and the a/v community , hey I'm proud to be an Audioholic and I spread the news about this site whenever a/v is discussed, this is a community that can be recommended with eyes closed. It'll be sad the day when a newbie pokes around here and finds a bunch or hostile, bitter guys that can get themselves together. Sorry if I'm long-winded today, but I really hate to see the community fragmented, hey we're all good guys here, remember? I say lets put this past unpleasantness behind us and move on in the spirit of a/v and continue the open debates and camaraderie.

 

[Alex2507]

HH,

Please consider that j_garcia was able to say that he had some fancy cables and also said that he could hear and see improvements without any problems with other members. That shows that the topic itself is not problematic in nature.

I understand that you and Chad are friends. That explains your defense of him. I'm just saying that while you take the time to tell the wolf pack what they (we?) did wrong you should also point out to Chad that his approach was less than perfect.

Alex

 

[majorloser]

...for Pete's sake we have engineers here...

Yeah, but they're EE's....

(There's a reason engineering firms put them on the far side of the office away from clients)

 

[highfihoney]

HH,

Please consider that j_garcia was able to say that he had some fancy cables and also said that he could hear and see improvements without any problems with other members. That shows that the topic itself is not problematic in nature.

I understand that you and Chad are friends. That explains your defense of him. I'm just saying that while you take the time to tell the wolf pack what they (we?) did wrong you should also point out to Chad that his approach was less than perfect.

Alex

Im responding from the last post upwards,in no real order.

Alex,me & Chad being on friendly terms has nothing to do with this,i also agree the J garcia was able to say what he had to say without loosing his head,this is rare on this site lately.


I'll also agree that Chad's methods suck to the extreme but this is only partially about his threads,its rampant in every cable thread or high end thread,we need to look past the Chad deal to see the big picture.

What i question is motive,if a member hate's everything to to with botique cable's & has contempt for all that is high end gear what could possibly be the motive for joining these threads.

 

[chadnliz]

I have moved on seeing I cant win, my thread wasnt intended to invoke any arguements, I simply stated I knew some if not many dont think cables matter and knowing this why invite those people to participate in the thread?, by asking them to not participate it was my intent not to create a rant fest which people did EXACTLY THAT, offering nothing on the the true subject at hand and turning the thread into a free for all.
But sadly many cant see it that way and choose to hijack my thread and mock me, so I fought back with jokes as folks were poking fun at me so I responded in kind, big brother warned me and shut the thread down. Now I am still being slammed and thats fine but I stand by my belief in certain technology even if many dont. I can tell you now that all of this doesnt matter one bit in the big picture, becoming completely disabled by age 30 from spinal disease makes one very aware of what truely matters. Maybe my jokes brand of comedy isnt everyones cup of tea but you get to the point in life where so many things go bad you can either laugh or cry...I choose to laugh. I have been supportive, complimentary in my general participation and have helped 4 members so far in hooking up or figuring out their systems and surrently working with another member who needs to get a few things together to complete the task at hand......if I feel attacked I tend to respond in kind.
As I write this I am on my way to Hospital because of blood in my fluids so I am not even sure when I will be back here, but I hope when I return this issue is put to rest, life is too short. Chad

 

[highfihoney]

It'll be sad the day when a newbie pokes around here and finds a bunch or hostile, bitter guys that can get themselves together.

Hi Strat,unfortunately this is exactly whats being portrayed,a bunch of hostile guy's ready to leap at a second's notice,to quote a comment addressed to me in the infamous Chad Cable Thread.

My comment in the Chad thread that was quoted by a new member.

On a side note i do think some of you guy's need to put the fangs away.

Response from New member Brett A,join date jan 2008,post count 27.

That's good to hear. I wandered in here from the other HI-FI sites i frequent. Ive been suprised at the dogged determination of some of the folk's here to deny others their experience & to belittle. I still have to say it's been a fun visit.

There are those here who have switched their main focus from being helpfull or sharing with the group to hunting for the next cable or high end thread to subvert, because it's fun not helpfull.

 

[highfihoney]

He has a strange way of showing that he's not a troll.

Having greater knowledge of the subject matter does not give one the right to belittle and insult others. And that goes for both sides of the debate.

Hi Major,im going to touch base on the troll deal but im going to save it for Johnd,not because i think he's a troll(or anything else negative) but him & myself had had some experiences back a while that are pointers as to why new members respond the way they do,and as pointers of the hunting being praticed.

 

[highfihoney]

im all for open debates, higher learning, and the ability to pass knowledge along. I think we all knew where chads thread would go, even if it wasnt his intent. Its clear that the majority of "regular" posters have very narrow minded thought process regarding speaker manufactures, cables, subs, and power. I understand that one has an inherant desire to have the best that one can afford, but bewiddling others for spending more is just child like. HH hit it on the nose, there have been alot trolls lurking, and being somewhat new to these forums, I understand the trolls ability to light the fires is made eaiser by said narrow mindedness.

Your right,all of us here who have been members here for any length of time are fully aware of what happens as soon as a cable thread is started,again i question the motive of some to even enter such a thread,i'll touch base on motive later with Johnd when i respond to him.

You also bring up a very good aspect of this which is lighting fires,all it takes is a nudge in the right direction to push it over the edge,its got outta hand IMO & there are several here who are masters at lighting a fire,then sit back & watch the frickass that ensues.

 

[Alex2507]

What i question is motive,if a member hate's everything to to with botique cable's & has contempt for all that is high end gear what could possibly be the motive for joining these threads.

Maybe it's to help people like me. I came here specifically looking to have wire/cable questions answered. The answer I found is that $2000 worth of gear isn't going to be significantly improved with $2000 worth of conductors. Still one thing I really couldn't shake is my belief that a certain brand and grade of component video cables out performed the free ones my cable company gave me. Personally I'm all done figuring out wires as I will use what I have and can afford until I can justify BJC which I consider kind of expensive. But at least I have read and understood articles on silver plated, Teflon dielectric, oxygen free skin effect wires and can rest easy knowing that James Bond suit cases really are not going to make my speakers sound better.

BTW, I'm not above enjoying a good old fashioned brawl with some mud slinging added in there. So long as I don't get hit. I am so ashamed.

 

[Johnd]

I have moved on seeing I cant win, my thread wasnt intended to invoke any arguements, I simply stated I knew some if not many dont think cables matter and knowing this why invite those people to participate in the thread?, by asking them to not participate it was my intent not to create a rant fest which people did EXACTLY THAT, offering nothing on the the true subject at hand and turning the thread into a free for all.
But sadly many cant see it that way and choose to hijack my thread and mock me, so I fought back with jokes as folks were poking fun at me so I responded in kind, big brother warned me and shut the thread down. Now I am still being slammed and thats fine but I stand by my belief in certain technology even if many dont. I can tell you now that all of this doesnt matter one bit in the big picture, becoming completely disabled by age 30 from spinal disease makes one very aware of what truely matters. Maybe my jokes brand of comedy isnt everyones cup of tea but you get to the point in life where so many things go bad you can either laugh or cry...I choose to laugh. I have been supportive, complimentary in my general participation and have helped 4 members so far in hooking up or figuring out their systems and surrently working with another member who needs to get a few things together to complete the task at hand......if I feel attacked I tend to respond in kind.
As I write this I am on my way to Hospital because of blood in my fluids so I am not even sure when I will be back here, but I hope when I return this issue is put to rest, life is too short. Chad

I for one, have already put it to rest chad.

A word to the wise: one ought to be prepared for the mill when he calls another out. Keep the derogatory terms semi-polite, and don't inject personal stuff into a thread that's not your own, and is not about you.

I look forward to your input at anytime you wish to return. From one member to another: Peace out. John