Why are separates so much more expensive?

P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
You are missing my point. First of all there has been a revolution in Class D amps. They can now be built quite cheaply and exceed the performance of the $5000 class A. Combine by eliminating the terrible effects of analog crossovers, by using digital ones at the speakers, and you can put together a system to rival a system that needs a mortgage now. And yes, people will find it a lot better than a receiver plus a most of the speakers mentioned in these forums.
That's fair, thanks for the quick response.
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
If a lack of current was truely holding back the performance of an amplifier it would without a doubt trip a breaker. The fact is the power supplied to an amplifier is limited more by the powersupply circuit in the amplifier than the ac current supplied to it. The fact is that a breaker does not trip on short instantaneous spikes in current, unless it spikes by more than a certain percent of the rating, and in that case the current is still provided to the maximum extent that the wire of that particular guage is capable of carrying. 14ga wire may only be rated for carrying 15 amps at an 85% duty cycle but can carry up to 3 times that for short period of time without thermally damaging itself. If in doubt refer to the National Electrical Code.
This conversation is about theoretical circumstances. In fact, the average power consumption even on loud music playback is well under 100 watts total draw from the wall outlet, with brief dynamic peaks at a higher range(but much of this may be supplied by the power supply reserve). In extreme circumstances, maybe this would be increased to 200 watts average. If, however, someone wanted to drive a TC Sounds LMS 5400 at full power for SPL testing or simply run very high powered subs 15-20 dBs hot for 'bassing out' for a period of time -- a standard 120VAC 15 AMP wall outlet would not be able to comply. :)

-Chris
 
S

sparky77

Full Audioholic
A 7 x 100w amp is not likely to trip a 15 amp breaker even at its max output with pink noise whether the speakers can handle it or not, and most certainly will not trip a 20 amp. Simple math 120 x 20 x .85 = 2040w, even at 45% effeciency is only 918w of continuous power, however the instantaneous peaks only make up for about 2% of the duty cycle, which by no means pushes the thermal capicity of the wiring towards it's limit, and does not limit the available current from the household wiring, the limiting factor remains with the powersupply that runs the amplifier. Most people forget the fact that even though the power supply in an amplifier is rated at more wattage than what the amp is rated for, there is still the factor of the voltage that the amp actually sends to the speakers versus the current supplied simultaneously, a lot of times the voltage that the speakers recieves is less than what the power supply provides, that is why there is an efficiency of less than 70% on nearly every amp design I've seen. The theory that an ac powerline can hold back the quality of an amplifier is next to nothing, there may be some situations in the case of a 3,000 watt amp were it may require more current, but is likely to run off of 240 volts. This is where the europeans have an advantage over us when it comes to high powered systems.
 
highfihoney

highfihoney

Audioholic Samurai
My point was to ask why there is nothing in-between. How about a preamp that costs less than the entry-level integrated? That seems pretty easy to do. Or how about 40wpc separates for (say) 50% more total than the equivalent integrated?
I gotta think that there is little or no market for such amplifiers anymore,no audio manufacturer wants a product that is severly limited in what it can be used for,especially a budget product,a 40 watt stand alone amplifier would have allmost no other applications other than to run a small seperates system,this equals a large investment for very little returns.

Good point on the preamp,the only reason i'd think would also be marketing & sales volume.
 
wire

wire

Senior Audioholic
Nonsense. Perhaps you mean to say some separate amplifiers have more headroom than some receivers. The reverse is also true. Some receivers have more headroom than some separate amplifiers. You would also need to define dramatic to get me anywhere near accepting such a broad statement.

There is no electronic theorem that says that adding other functions to an amplifier causes it to have less headroom. Just isn't true.

Sorry.
I think Seth is on something here , It still boils down to the power supply for the headroom . So in most cases ( except the Flagship recievers , like said above by Soundman ) , The Mid priced power amps with a good power supply design will win out in Headroom and will not blow your tweets .
 
wire

wire

Senior Audioholic
"The problem is that you CANNOT use a 200 wpc amplifier to its full potential?... Technically you can. If you are willing to shell out some money, get an electrician if need be to set it up for you, then yes you could..."


Oh, yeah, I do plan on having four 50A circuits put in my future HT room.:D
In any house ive been living in , I had made my Brystons Green lights turn to Red for short turn spurts :) and never blown a breaker or a tweet .
 
wire

wire

Senior Audioholic
Crap!

The truth really hurts!

So should I be changing my name to EmoDefTechGuy or OutlawDefTechGuy or what?:D

Actually in the Audio Magazine article, it says:

"There was no evidence of output protection chokes, so apparently Monidal considers the system stable for unusual loads without sound-compromising series inductors."

But they still said the 200X3 was an exceptional amp and highly recommended the amp!

I guess I've been lucky all these years with my Acurus 200X3 amps? I have never blown any speakers yet.

Is there an outboard speaker protection system that you could put between the amp and the speaker?

Why? Oh why?
I guess , there good amps , I dont have any speaker protection on any of my amps . Never have blown a tweeter in 20 years .
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
I guess , there good amps , I dont have any speaker protection on any of my amps . Never have blown a tweeter in 20 years .
You are lucky. Any power transistor can fail and will eventually. If it is direct coupled, the speakers need protection.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
I think Seth is on something here , It still boils down to the power supply for the headroom . So in most cases ( except the Flagship recievers , like said above by Soundman ) , The Mid priced power amps with a good power supply design will win out in Headroom and will not blow your tweets .
I'm getting involved again in this thread with a little reluctance, as I think it is a slightly destructive thread. However there is a little misunderstanding.

The issue is the biasing of the output devices.

Now the issue is Class A versus class A/B biasing.

Now the biasing determines the current through the output device, quiescent and operating.

Now in class A biasing the power through the output devices is constant, irrespective of load in the operating range of the devices. So there will be the same power consumption whether the amp is doing nothing or delivering its rated power.

Now what is the point. Well it has to do with the symmetry of the two halves of a sine wave. As you move to class B biasing the two halves of the sine wave become just a hair out of sink at zero point (the crossover node). This is called crossover distortion and has a lot of unpleasant third order content.

Now as you move to class B the amp runs cooler and more of the power goes to the load. A pure class B amp does not sound pleasant.

The vast majority of transistor amps are variations of Toby and Dinsdale's A/B configuration of the sixties. The object is to have the amp biased at class A on low level signals and move towards class B on the higher level signals.

Now obviously the more an amp is biased to class B the more efficient it will be and the cooler it will run and generally the output devices have a longer life. In the specification of power transistors there is a time heat longevity curve. The penalty is increased odd harmonic distortion. The question then becomes, how much is audible. This is the crux of the tube versus solid state debate. Tube amps are biased class A.

Now if you are packing seven amps in one case, you can't generate a bunch of heat, also if you bias too far to class A in addition to heat you will likely embarrass the power supply. As it is, few receives can have all their amps develop full power at once.

Now the other interesting classes of amps are class C and D. The class C was the invention of Peter Walker, and is a Quad patent, now held by IAC. As far as I know the Quad 909 is the only amp available currently that uses this interesting topology. The 405s especially the 405 IIs are snapped up for a good price on eBay every time one appears.

Now the class D is the switching amp where the input signal modulates N channel MOSFETs. Since these devices are acting as low resistance switches the heat generated in the devices are minimal. Until recently these amps have only been suitable for subwoofer use. However new approaches using Pulse width modulation of the input, are putting excellent class D amps on the market. Hopefully this will relegate the above discussion to history. As I have stated previously this should allow the amps to reside in the speakers. When combined with new digital crossovers this will be the preferred location.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I guess , there good amps , I dont have any speaker protection on any of my amps . Never have blown a tweeter in 20 years .
That makes me feel a little bit better.:D

So Carver and Bryston amps don't have speaker protection either?

Well, when I do buy new amps, it does seem to make a lot of sense to get amps like MACs with speaker protection.

You guys let me know when MACs have one of those 50% sale.:D

I think Greg posted a MAC sale once.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
Don't NPN and PNP transistors usually fail open circuit?
No, power transistors almost always short circuit and connect the DC rail voltage across the speaker terminals.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
That makes me feel a little bit better.:D

So Carver and Bryston amps don't have speaker protection either?

Well, when I do buy new amps, it does seem to make a lot of sense to get amps like MACs with speaker protection.

You guys let me know when MACs have one of those 50% sale.:D

I think Greg posted a MAC sale once.
I just went on like and downloaded the Bryston schematics. Speaker protection is in their circuits after October 1987. I suspect they bought too many pairs of speakers.

The MAC can't pass DC because of the transformers.

I have not looked at Carver, but I know him and have entertained in my home. He is too good an engineer to make an amp that would blow speakers, so I bet he has it covered. Knowing Bob it won't be like other people do it!
 
highfihoney

highfihoney

Audioholic Samurai
That makes me feel a little bit better.:D

So Carver and Bryston amps don't have speaker protection either?

Well, when I do buy new amps, it does seem to make a lot of sense to get amps like MACs with speaker protection.

You guys let me know when MACs have one of those 50% sale.:D

I think Greg posted a MAC sale once.
Just let me know when your ready to buy a Mcintosh amp,i'll show you how to beat MSRP by 40% on brand new gear,still in an unopened box, straight from the dealer.
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
No, power transistors almost always short circuit and connect the DC rail voltage across the speaker terminals.
Well I guess its a race between the amp's fuse and the speaker coil. If the transistor is shorted circuited, it would mean that the rail and ground are connected together shorting out even the speaker terminals. I guess I would need to see the schematic of the output side to be accurate about this.
 

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