stratman

stratman

Audioholic Ninja
I can't list all of my reasons for being angry, because there are too many. Here are a few, though.
I am angry because: There are still holy wars going on, and this country insists on getting involved in them. In spite of the constitutional separation of church and state, there are still numerous laws with a religious basis. The organizations intended to do real good (eg charities, AA) all have a religious bias. Wherever I drive in this city, there are gigantic churches (most of the "hellfire and brimstone" variety, some larger than football stadiums.) An athiest cannot get elected president, and every president uses the false authority of the bible to bolster his own pronouncements. Many christians simply accept all the disasterous events in today's world as part of "the end of days", instead of trying to change them. Science teaching is being undermined by religious BS like "intelligent design".
I could go on, but you get the idea.
I understand you "plight," but neither Christians nor Jews aren't out to get you, after all this country was founded on Judeo/Christian priciples (ethics, values, etc.) which never harmed anyone, on the contrary this country based on those ideals has spread it's arms wide open and taken in those seeking refuge. "Come ye that are heavy burdened"....those were spoken by Christ, this country for many years was fulfilling the Golden Rule as best as it could and look at the results, not perfect, but people want to come here and stay here.

Listen I'm not trying to belittle you or be a smartass, but maybe you'll be happier in a country where Christianity/Judaism isn't practiced, a more secular society, perhaps Japan or VietNam or China. The reason I say this is because if you're so angry that it's eating you up, it won't be good for your health to stay here, maybe, if practical, you can explore the idea.
 
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masak_aer

masak_aer

Senior Audioholic
I can't list all of my reasons for being angry, because there are too many. Here are a few, though.
I am angry because: There are still holy wars going on, and this country insists on getting involved in them. In spite of the constitutional separation of church and state, there are still numerous laws with a religious basis. The organizations intended to do real good (eg charities, AA) all have a religious bias.
Assumptions, accusations, facts? I agree that several charities have a religious bias but not all. I have first hand experience on one so it throws your generalization in the dumpster.

Wherever I drive in this city, there are gigantic churches (most of the "hellfire and brimstone" variety, some larger than football stadiums.)
And you are mad at those gigantic churches? Why don't all atheists collect money and build one gigantic "shelter"?

An athiest cannot get elected president
If all atheist share the same negative views on all who are religious or have faith, imagine what it'd be like? Religions cleansing? If all people can respect others, then i'd vote against this law.

and every president uses the false authority of the bible to bolster his own pronouncements.
I, too, disagree with with the act but stop the mass wave of blanket statements.

Many christians simply accept all the disasterous events in today's world as part of "the end of days", instead of trying to change them.
Not me.

Science teaching is being undermined by religious BS like "intelligent design".
What name do you prefer? Atheist design or sci-fi?
I could go on, but you get the idea.[/QUOTE]
 
J

Joe Schmoe

Audioholic Ninja
Listen I'm not trying to belittle you or be a smartass, but maybe you'll be happier in a country where Christianity/Judaism isn't practiced, a more secular society, perhaps Japan or VietNam or China. The reason I say this is because if you're so angry that it's eating you up, it won't be good for your health to stay here, maybe, if practical, you can explore the idea.
Believe me, I have considered it. I am nowhere near rich enough to move to another country, though. Also, white expatriots are not likely in demand as employees in Asia.
 
aberkowitz

aberkowitz

Audioholic Field Marshall
Believe me, I have considered it. I am nowhere near rich enough to move to another country, though. Also, white expatriots are not likely in demand as employees in Asia.
Depends on the field and the country. In Japan- definitely not. In China, Vietnam, Singapore, & others... there's HUGE demand- much of it is to help with managing offshored processes. Being in Financial Services myself, I know there are a ton of jobs- it's just hard to find people who have the knowledge and are willing to go live in Asia while taking an absolute paycut (relatively they do just fine) and potentially limiting them from the highest end upside (e.g. becoming CEO of an investment bank). Can't speak as much to other industries.

Btw- not trying to throw you out of the country, yet :D, just thought I'd throw some stuff out there.

As to the previous question
 
D

dronezero

Audioholic
It is true. While not specifically written into the constitution, the impetus behind the creed was based in Judeo/Christian ethics and practice.
Which Judeo/Christian ethics and practices would that be? And not only was it not specifically written into the constitution, it was specifically left out of the constitution.

edit: perhaps it would be better to start a new thread on this?
 
J

Johnd

Audioholic Samurai
Which Judeo/Christian ethics and practices would that be? And not only was it not specifically written into the constitution, it was specifically left out of the constitution.

edit: perhaps it would be better to start a new thread on this?
You're kidding, right?

Religion was omitted from the Constitution by design, not because all the signers were atheists. You never heard of separation of church and state? Here's a link showing the religious affiliations of the signers of the Declaration, the Constitution and the Articles of Confederation.

http://www.adherents.com/gov/Founding_Fathers_Religion.html

Now, tell me again how many were atheists? :p
 
astrodon

astrodon

Audioholic
I watched 3 minutes of the video in the original post before I got bored (no talking or text, only music). I hope the people who constructed this video got permission from the Carl Sagan-Ann Druyan Cosmos Studio Company since they lifted about 2 of the first 3 minutes from Cosmos episodes.

As far as the link above is concerned, this site is owned by a religious outfit called "Adherents" which may call into question the accuracy of this list by some. However, of the few founding fathers whose religious affiliations to which I am aware, they at least got those correct.

And as for the tone of a few of the statements I have read in this thread, there is no shame in being an atheist, most of us are outstanding citizens.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
Thank you, that is exacly what I was going to say. Talking into thin air and imagining that there is a "god" listening is one thing. When you hear him answer, you have real issues.
Better him than us, right ;) :D
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
Speaking of proof, I just did a spell check on my last post. It said there was no such word in the English language as "proven". I have faith that there is such a word.:p
But, is that really just faith or you have further knowledge or a good probability about such a word:D
 
J

Johnd

Audioholic Samurai
And as for the tone of a few of the statements I have read in this thread, there is no shame in being an atheist, most of us are outstanding citizens.
That's fine by me astrodon. And you must be speaking of the tone of your fellow atheists...

Neither I, nor do I believe any of the Deists posted here, shamed the atheists. They (the atheists) went on the attack by calling all those with faith fools (in so many words). I did not see any Deists call the atheists fools for their lack of belief. Let it be known that is a cheap ploy, and hopefully my fellow believers will see it coming next time, and not respond to their drivel (mtry is ofter good at that :)).

The point made by your fellow atheists was contradictory to well known US history, some of which you confirmed...the early settlers here, most of whom were from Britain, were Deists. Period. As far as the link I provided, I challenge you to disprove it's accuracy. I just scooped up one from google that had the recognizable names...if the unrecognizable ones are misrepresented atheists, I would appreciate that information. Thomas Jefferson's writing are replete with the term Creator, though I do not know which faith can attributed to him. Either way, he was a Deist.

Regardless, I see no one casting any shame here on those atheists. If there is any, they've perpetrated that indignity upon themselves.
 
astrodon

astrodon

Audioholic
Regardless, I see no one casting any shame here on those atheists. If there is any, they've perpetrated that indignity upon themselves.
Doesn't this last statement you make prove my point?
 
Thaedium

Thaedium

Audioholic
I'm going to leave my views of religion out of my comments, I personally think that religion is such a charged subject for debate that expressing opinions about it are simply pointless.

I actually watched the video in full, and then I looked around the website, and used some of the links to see what else was going on. It is interesting that many here watched bits, pieces, parts or maybe the whole thing and came right back here to comment without doing this themselves. Many here have outright dismissed this video as conspiracy theorist bunk, without ever looking to see what sources were used and cited for the production of the video. How you feel about the video is entirely irrelevant to me, I'm not criticizing anyone for honest opinions here at all. I will however criticize anyone here for being purposely obtuse about the subject and dismissing the video as fraudulent without ever investigating the legitimacy of the source material used to create it.

The video is no masterpiece, and certainly has many holes in it. However there is definently some points that are brought up that have sufficient legitimate source material to merrit further consideration. Regarding the 9/11 portion especially I should say. For anyone to blindly believe without reservations that 9/11 was the complete work of a relatively small group of radical muslims is amusing to me. There are far too many inconsistencies in the explanations held popular today to account for all of what was achieved on that day. Before some of you start firing back with comments about specialists confirming data taken, I would just like to say that I am well aware of the data. I've read the 9/11 Commission, I've done a decent amount of research of my own and I will be the first to admit that I am in no position to make judgement in any which way. I don't feed into the conspiracy theories that believe it was all contrived by the US Government to wage a war overseas.

Halon451 made this comment, and I think it is a very interesting one indeed;
The thing that I find most ironic though is the difference in public opinion 7 years after the fact, versus 7 days after the fact.
This is truly the central issue of 9/11 in many aspects when one considers the inconsistencies in the whole events of that tragic day. Seven days after it, only the most basic understanding of the cause of the events were understood by the public. Unified by a common belief, the Government had the green light to ratify many acts which impede upon civil liberties in the United States. It had the green light to launch a war campaign against a nation who was not responsible for the acts of 9/11. It generated a fear for possible repeat actions by rogue nations such as Iraq, which in turn gave fertile soil for more war. Right or wrong, for better or worse, this is true.

Seven years later, we have the benefit of multiple studies and commissions investigating the events of that day. The burden of continued combat operations overseas in both Iraq and Afghanistan. And the failure to truly say we have held accountable those who committed, orchestrated, and made possible this atrocity. No one has benefitted from this, other then those whose purses have grown fatter loaning the government the money to operate overseas, and those getting the contracts to manage the oil industry over there. This too is a fact, right or wrong, for better or worse.

The cost for all of this continues to be paid by the public, day in and day out. Through loss of life, through inflation of the dollar, through so many other ways. Were I you, I am sure I would still believe that answers to many questions must still be addressed and answered. Were I you, I am sure I would still want Justice to be issued to those responsible.


For myself, I'm military. I'm light infantry currently, and I've done my stint in the special forces here in Canada. At the end of the day, I don't really care about the situation in Afghanistan, I care about my family. I get paid peanuts compared to those who benefit from my service overseas, and I don't resent that. I chose the combat arms because it was a calling for me, I'm a violent individual, and I am comfortable in theatre. When the Canadian government sends me places to kill other people I am fine with that at the end of the day. So this is my advice. I think if even I can manage not to be a zealot of the governments propaganda, where I've been taught by the government to do its dirty work, then you owe it to yourself not to take everything told to you by them as the truth. You all have the luxury of excercising your freewill, to demand more complete answers to the questions raised from the ashes of 9/11. It is not unpatriotic to think something has gone afoul within the government, its unpatriotic to turn a blind eye to it.
 
mike c

mike c

Audioholic Warlord
A 5-year-old boy threw a ball up in the air and laughed so hard again and again. His friend being curious to all that's happening, came over and asked what he was doing. The boy said,"I am playing ball with God. he is a bad ball player. He can never throw the ball straight back at me."...
and yet God is omnipresent ... anywhere the ball comes from IS straight from him. :)
 
D

dronezero

Audioholic
You're kidding, right?

Religion was omitted from the Constitution by design, not because all the signers were atheists. You never heard of separation of church and state? Here's a link showing the religious affiliations of the signers of the Declaration, the Constitution and the Articles of Confederation.

http://www.adherents.com/gov/Founding_Fathers_Religion.html

Now, tell me again how many were atheists? :p
You need to go back and reread what I wrote. Nowhere did I say anything about the drafters being atheists. The only point I made was that "religion was omitted from the constitution by design," which you agree with in the first sentence. I don't know where you are getting the rest of this from.

...I did not see any Deists call the atheists fools for their lack of belief...snip... and not respond to their drivel (mtry is ofter good at that :)).
Ah yes, you never called us fools you just say that what we say is drivel. How courteous of you.

...Thomas Jefferson's writing are replete with the term Creator, though I do not know which faith can attributed to him. Either way, he was a Deist.
This drives my point home even further. Yes Jefferson was a deist and his writing was littered with reference to a creator. As was nearly all writing at the time. Which makes it particularly significant that there was no mention of a creator in the constitution.

Regardless, I see no one casting any shame here on those atheists. If there is any, they've perpetrated that indignity upon themselves.
Another not so subtle insult.
 
J

Johnd

Audioholic Samurai
Ahh the confusion. :confused: I was hoping the atheists could put all their heads together to figure this out...apparently not. So I'll respond.

You need to go back and reread what I wrote. Nowhere did I say anything about the drafters being atheists. The only point I made was that "religion was omitted from the constitution by design," which you agree with in the first sentence. I don't know where you are getting the rest of this from.
You wrote that, huh? You sure about that?

Ah yes, you never called us fools you just say that what we say is drivel. How courteous of you.
It is. I refrained from writing what I was thinking. That is courteous.

This drives my point home even further. Yes Jefferson was a deist and his writing was littered with reference to a creator. As was nearly all writing at the time. Which makes it particularly significant that there was no mention of a creator in the constitution.
Because of...? Separation of church and state. The comment you wholly disagreed with is that this country was founded on Judeo Christian principles...and you are just wrong on that. I'll ask you this, regardless of the absence of the word "god" in the constitution, how many times a day do you think you see that word? And, oh, it's not the evil empire forcing subliminal messages upon you. Let me help you out. Your currency is rife with God references. Specifically, "In God We Trust" has been on some form of our currency since Lincoln's death.

Another not so subtle insult.
This is the part where you and your atheist bretheren can stick your your heads together...as it makes no sense to me. But I like how you regurgitate the nonsensical drivel. You just reaffirm by belief. :)

Let me help you again. It is not insulting for me to write If there is any shame (on those atheists), they have perpetrated that indignity upon themeselves. "Shame" was first proposed by your atheist bretheren. I denied any shame being forced upon them by the Deists, because the atheists continuously interject themseves into these spiritual/faith-driven/religious threads, and they are the ones that continually deride and ridicule those that have faith. Nowhere that I've read is any person of faith ridiculing the atheists for they're lack of belief. Nowhere.

That's the rub. So you see, the shame, if any, has been cast upon themselves for their repeated ridicule of the faithful. I said as much in my previous post (# 93) "They (the atheists) went on the attack by calling all those with faith fools (in so many words). I did not see any Deists call the atheists fools for their lack of belief." How you any the other atheists miss that simple point is beyond me.
 
D

davo

Full Audioholic
The universe is a vast place. While we humans might think that we have come a long way since our origins as singled cell organisms in all these billions of years, compared to the immensity of what is out there, we as a species have just started on this journey..

There are bound to be beings millions if not billions of years older than us. They were old when the universe was young. Giants, who freely walked amongst the stars and the galaxies. Stars were their building blocks. Galaxies were their playgrounds. Timeless, ageless. Perhaps one day, far into the distant future, humanity's descendants will be lucky enough to join their ranks.

I like science fiction.
I like 'deeper' S/F myself. If you get the chance there is a book by Vernor Vinge called "A Fire Upon The Deep". It will take you places.
 

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