Why are separates so much more expensive?

[fmw]

I'm sure you're right. I withdraw my comments.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

One thing I will do, however, is stop trying to educate people here about amplifiers. The truth isn't popular here and people don't really want to hear it.

I want to hear the truth too -- even if it hurts.

Perhaps there is a little bit of truth in all that has been said.

Some separates are better than some AV receivers, and some AV receivers are better than some separates.

Some external amps have a lot more power than AV receivers, but all that power will probably never be utilized or even reached.

I just read an old Audio Magazine article which reviewed the Acurus 200X3. We know that the power line is normally 120 V. But when 4-ohm loads were used, the power line went down to 104 V, so the maxium power output of 515 watts will never be reached.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

"The problem is that you CANNOT use a 200 wpc amplifier to its full potential?... Technically you can. If you are willing to shell out some money, get an electrician if need be to set it up for you, then yes you could..."


Oh, yeah, I do plan on having four 50A circuits put in my future HT room.

 

[fmw]

"The problem is that you CANNOT use a 200 wpc amplifier to its full potential?... Technically you can. If you are willing to shell out some money, get an electrician if need be to set it up for you, then yes you could..."


Oh, yeah, I do plan on having four 50A circuits put in my future HT room.

Sounds like what you need is components that run on 220V service.

 

[TLS Guy]

I want to hear the truth too -- even if it hurts.

Perhaps there is a little bit of truth in all that has been said.

Some separates are better than some AV receivers, and some AV receivers are better than some separates.

Some external amps have a lot more power than AV receivers, but all that power will probably never be utilized or even reached.

I just read an old Audio Magazine article which reviewed the Acurus 200X3. We know that the power line is normally 120 V. But when 4-ohm loads were used, the power line went down to 104 V, so the maxium power output of 515 watts will never be reached.

Yes, and I've just found out helping a guy with an Acurus 220X3 in trouble, that the amps don't even have output speaker protection! So that was a rogue amp from the start and a fraud on the public. The place they belong is the recycling center. I have now filed them in my do not recommend, do not use category. Now I bet that high end magazine run by those golden ears, did not point that out in the review. Well they should have. This is part of the reason why the loony high end fringe have done so much damage.

So there are good and bad designs both ways. However well built amps do have significant advantages you are correct about that. However look at one of my posts in this thread from yesterday, replying to Joe Schmoe. No one must accept the status quo. Pursuing excellence is a worthwhile is a worthwhile human endeavor, as long as it is based on good science and intellectual honesty. It is the latter that has been slipping away since the eighties.

 

[TLS Guy]

Sounds like what you need is components that run on 220V service.

I think you would have code problems with that in the US. 110 volts was a poor choice by the US in the first place.

 

[3db]

"The problem is that you CANNOT use a 200 wpc amplifier to its full potential?... Technically you can. If you are willing to shell out some money, get an electrician if need be to set it up for you, then yes you could..."


Oh, yeah, I do plan on having four 50A circuits put in my future HT room.

There other things that seperate power amps give you other than just sheer power. Lets talk about slew rate, the measure of an amp's ability to follow a very fast transient from a very low output to a very loud output. Generally speaking, power amps track better in that respect than most receivers. When equiped with balanced outputs, power amps offer better noise isolation and allow for greater placement flexability. Seperates have better channel seperation, lower noise floors, blah blah blah. Whether or not any or all of this presents an audible difference I dunno.

The other thing seperates give you is the ability to upgrade the pre-amp while allowing one to keep the power amp.

 

[TLS Guy]

By the way anyone following this thread, and is interested in pursuing excellence should follow this thread.

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38854

I think it will be increasingly interesting as this project develops. And this includes you Joe. This has direct relevance to my post of yesterday in this thread in my reply to Joe, where he basically accused me of being from another planet. My reply was about revolution in the air and what is to come.

Lets all stay as educated and informed as possible and try and have a few less of these which piece of junk is better than this piece of junk posts.

Here is the thread which I think will prove seminal over the years.

 

[TLS Guy]

There other things that seperate power amps give you other than just sheer power. Lets talk about slew rate, the measure of an amp's ability to follow a very fast transient from a very low output to a very loud output. Generally speaking, power amps track better in that respect than most receivers. When equiped with balanced outputs, power amps offer better noise isolation and allow for greater placement flexability. Seperates have better channel seperation, lower noise floors, blah blah blah. Whether or not any or all of this presents an audible difference I dunno.

The other thing seperates give you is the ability to upgrade the pre-amp while allowing one to keep the power amp.

Correct on all points!

 

[avaserfi]

By the way anyone following this thread, and is interested in pursuing excellence should follow this thread.

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38854

I think it will be increasingly interesting as this project develops. And this includes you Joe. This has direct relevance to my post of yesterday in this thread in my reply to Joe, where he basically accused me of being from another planet. My reply was about revolution in the air and what is to come.

Lets all stay as educated and informed as possible and try and have a few less of these which piece of junk is better than this piece of junk posts.

Here is the thread which I think will prove seminal over the years.

While I appreciate the interest I think many will think I am a mad man when they see the designs used and equipment needed etc... In the end the front two main speakers will weigh at least 350lbs each and be at minimum (pending possible design changes) a four way active system that will require excessive (to most people) amount of amplification. Not only this, but the level of craftsmanship required will likely be far beyond what most can do. This is in part due to my interest in woodworking and my luck in having a father who has a pseudo-shop that I am allowed to pillage for my projects .

 

[Joe Schmoe]

This has direct relevance to my post of yesterday in this thread in my reply to Joe, where he basically accused me of being from another planet.

The planet where money grows on trees.

 

[3db]

The planet where money grows on trees.

I thought you may have been aluding to that.

 

[TLS Guy]

While I appreciate the interest I think many will think I am a mad man when they see the designs used and equipment needed etc... In the end the front two main speakers will weigh at least 350lbs each and be at minimum (pending possible design changes) a four way active system that will require excessive (to most people) amount of amplification. Not only this, but the level of craftsmanship required will likely be far beyond what most can do. This is in part due to my interest in woodworking and my luck in having a father who has a pseudo-shop that I am allowed to pillage for my projects .

Well I will tell you are story from my residency years from many ago. A senior physician once told me, "There are two types of people in the world, the happily mad and the unhappily mad. Only the unhappily mad need concern physicians."

I think you and I are both in the happily mad category, and there is nothing wrong with that.

Don't worry your speakers will have a ball park weight of mine, yours probably a little lighter. My amp power is 1.7 KW. But it's hard to make people understand that's really only twice as much as having 170 watts

Don't discourage people from following this thread. Hopefully it will arouse their curiosity, and study further the techniques of accurate sound reproduction. Hopefully it will catch the attention of a youngster or two, and really capture their imaginations.

What you are trying to do I'm certain will have far more in common with tomorrow's systems than today's.

So I implore you to take a little time and post progress reports. The other thing is if we talk these projects up it might persuade speaker manufacturers to make their drivers available to the DIY market. That was the rule years ago, and there is no good reason why it should not be now. In fact Gilbert Briggs and Raymond Cooke would have told you it was the most influential market to cater to, and vital to the companies growth. Just see what happens on eBay when a nice pair of Raymond's B 139s show up!

You have nothing to be ashamed of at all.

 

[TLS Guy]

The planet where money grows on trees.

That's a gratuitous offensive remark, but I have a thick skin.

I have bought good equipment for many reasons, But one is longevity of the equipment. I have been adding pieces slowly and responsibly over more than 50 years. It has been a great pleasure, been interesting, and kept me in the thick of the musical arts, while living in the backwoods. I guess I don't have to justify one of my life's avocations, but I have anyway.

I'm encouraged by posts that don't glorify this current race to the bottom.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Yes, and I've just found out helping a guy with an Acurus 220X3 in trouble, that the amps don't even have output speaker protection!

Crap!

The truth really hurts!

So should I be changing my name to EmoDefTechGuy or OutlawDefTechGuy or what?

Actually in the Audio Magazine article, it says:

"There was no evidence of output protection chokes, so apparently Monidal considers the system stable for unusual loads without sound-compromising series inductors."

But they still said the 200X3 was an exceptional amp and highly recommended the amp!

I guess I've been lucky all these years with my Acurus 200X3 amps? I have never blown any speakers yet.

Is there an outboard speaker protection system that you could put between the amp and the speaker?

Why? Oh why?

 

[GlocksRock]

Just suck it up and sell the acurus amps and get a MPS-1/2. You know you want to get some new gear, now you have a good reason!

 

[Joe Schmoe]

That's a gratuitous offensive remark, but I have a thick skin.

Only if you choose to take it that way. Someone who admits to using 14 exotic amps in one system ("6 for the fronts alone") should expect to get picked on.

 

[TLS Guy]

Crap!

The truth really hurts!

So should I be changing my name to EmoDefTechGuy or OutlawDefTechGuy or what?

Actually in the Audio Magazine article, it says:

"There was no evidence of output protection chokes, so apparently Monidal considers the system stable for unusual loads without sound-compromising series inductors."

But they still said the 200X3 was an exceptional amp and highly recommended the amp!

I guess I've been lucky all these years with my Acurus 200X3 amps? I have never blown any speakers yet.

Is there an outboard speaker protection system that you could put between the amp and the speaker?

Why? Oh why?

First of all you don't protect speakers with chokes! If you go under the thread "is this amp worth fixing" on one post I explain about speaker protection. The speaker protection is to prevent speaker destruction from DC offset, an universal phenomenon when power transistors fail.

There used to be a device to add on , but it was a relay trip circuit, which is not the best for high powered amps. I forget the name of it. I will do some digging. Your best bet if you don't want to dump the amp is to see if you can find an understanding competent tech who can design and install clamp circuits. They are not complicated.

I have to go to Mayo Clinic tomorrow for a follow up following two very extensive surgeries there last year. This forum has been quite good therapy lately. Then I have to take care of my wife who is going to have a knee scope. So forgive me if I'm a bit tardy with my replies.

I never advise using direct coupled amps without speaker protection. EVER.

 

[Seth=L]

There other things that seperate power amps give you other than just sheer power. Lets talk about slew rate, the measure of an amp's ability to follow a very fast transient from a very low output to a very loud output. Generally speaking, power amps track better in that respect than most receivers. When equiped with balanced outputs, power amps offer better noise isolation and allow for greater placement flexability. Seperates have better channel seperation, lower noise floors, blah blah blah. Whether or not any or all of this presents an audible difference I dunno.

The other thing seperates give you is the ability to upgrade the pre-amp while allowing one to keep the power amp.

With great power comes great tracking ability.

 

[TLS Guy]

First of all you don't protect speakers with chokes! If you go under the thread "is this amp worth fixing" on one post I explain about speaker protection. The speaker protection is to prevent speaker destruction from DC offset, an universal phenomenon when power transistors fail.

There used to be a device to add on , but it was a relay trip circuit, which is not the best for high powered amps. I forget the name of it. I will do some digging. Your best bet if you don't want to dump the amp is to see if you can find an understanding competent tech who can design and install clamp circuits. They are not complicated.

I have to go to Mayo Clinic tomorrow for a follow up following two very extensive surgeries there last year. This forum has been quite good therapy lately. Then I have to take care of my wife who is going to have a knee scope. So forgive me if I'm a bit tardy with my replies.

I never advise using direct coupled amps without speaker protection. EVER.

I went into my archives and found the unit I talked about is the Velleman unit. It is rated up to 300 watts. They are still available! It is a relay type device, but it will be your easiest fix. They are $15.99 each and you would need three.

Here is the link.

http://www.next.gr/shop/shop.php?c=53&x=Speaker_Protection_Circuit

Now I found this good article on speaker protection with particular reference to using MOSFETS. Most circuits using the common N-channel MOSFETS. One circuit uses N and P channel channel MOSFETS.

These circuits are quite simple and you could have someone build these into your amp case.

http://www.geofex.com/Article_Folders/ampprot/dcprot.htm

I have heard about these circuits but this is the first time I have looked at it closely.

The circuit that cuts the power looks very appealing to me, and you would only need one.

I came across a circuit using COSMOS logic but it was relatively complicated.

I strongly advise you do not ignore this problem.