The giant is here: Velodyne DLS 5000R 15" Monster

[mike c]

Mike, if the boat is sinking I think your screwed either way! LOL

I will use that 15 incher as a tub to hold me until the coast guard arrives...

exactly!

you live a little while longer or you get tired before you die.

 

[Sheep]

However, this requires the larger driver has a motor of sufficient quality and power to move the larger driver without creating too much distortion. And such a large motor is difficult and expensive to produce.

You know this first hand? How do you make a quality motor and how much does it cost? The extra stress produced from the larger cone can't be that much considering most TC sounds woofers use the same motor structure for range of subwoofer sizes. You have been lulled into thinking it costs more, when it really doesn't.

As to the car analogy. How many cars do you see made entirely out of composite materials. If two cars are made of the same materials, pound for pound, the engine in the smaller car has to accelerate significantly less mass than that engine in the bigger. Thus that bigger car needs to have a much more powerful, and refined engine, in order to achieve the same acceleration, and the same quality of acceleration, as the smaller car.Large motors of such refinement are difficult to design and expensive to produce.

So a small car motor doesn't need to be built well because it only hauls limited weight? Look at an older Toyota or Honda 4 cylinder motor. I have seen adds for a Civic for sale with almost 1 million miles, and it never had the motor or transmission replaced. But wait, these are small light cars... they should have less refined motors. They need a bit more power to compensate for the weight, but in the end, unless the weight difference is double or more, it's not going to make a quantifiable difference. Sure, its 0-60 will suffer, but I don't think that is a design goal for a grocery getter.

SheepStar

 

[furrycute]

A larger motor of refinement and quality is more difficult to design and to produce than a smaller motor.

Just take a look at the rocket engines.

I don't remember the exact numbers. The Titan rocket that sent our spaceship to the moon was the largest rocket ever constructed by man. It has how many fantastically large engines? 4 or 6? I don't remember the exact numbers.

The Soviets tried to duplicate our feat. However, they never overcame the engineering obstacles in designing and building large rocket engines such as the ones used in the Titan rocket. So the Soviets bundled together a whole bunch of smaller engines hoping that will do the job. All of their rockets exploded shortly after take off. That's why the Soviets could never send one of their own to the moon.

 

[furrycute]

A 6 or 8 cylinder engine is more difficult to design and build than a 4 cylinder engine. But this does not preclude the possibility that Honda or Toyota can make a fantastic 4 cylinder engine that still keeps running after 100k miles.

 

[Sheep]

A 6 or 8 cylinder engine is more difficult to design and build than a 4 cylinder engine. But this does not preclude the possibility that Honda or Toyota can make a fantastic 4 cylinder engine that still keeps running after 100k miles.

I said 1 million. Yes, 1 million.

But now you're comparing apples to oranges. A 6 cylinder engine and 8 cylinder engine need more materials and have different ways of working/different parts, but an internal combustion engine still works the same way. The same parts in each, although different, still can benefit from the same technology and design.

SheepStar

 

[annunaki]

As long as the motor appropriately matches the mass it is intended to control you will have no difference other than increased output and lower frequency extension.

There used to be, and there still are to some degree, manufacturers who use the same motor for their 10", 12" and 15" drivers. This goes wrong when the motor was orginally for the 10" or 12" unit. This becomes a problem particularly on the 15" driver and causes response errors such as peaky response. This is why you see so many people claiming big woofers are sloppy. This is also cheaper because less material is needed in the motor.

Many companies can get around this hurdle (like TC Sounds) by designing a single motor for a 15" driver rather than a 10" or 12" and using it on all the subs. It costs a bit more because there are larger parts involved, but the benefits are truly worth it.

Other companies like JL Audio, particularly the W7 and W6v2, have different motors optimally designed for each size woofer. Even on the lower lines the 10" & 12" share the same motor but the 13.5" models get a proprietary one.

 

[annunaki]

You are reading too far into my car analogy. What I am saying is that if a larger driver is competantly designed it will always be as accurate as it's smaller brethren. If both are competantly designed, there will be no difference with the exception of lower frequency response and increased output over the operating range.

Many people mistake the increase in output, particularly in the 45hz-80hz range, as sloppiness when going to a larger woofer. The larger you go in woofer size, the lower one may need to go in terms of crossover point as the main speakers may/do not have the capability of effectively blending the 60hz-100hz content at the same level the woofer is capable of. Even though the sub may have ruler flat output from 100hz-15hz it can have substantially more output than the mains can efffectively keep up with near the crossover point. This is where room equalization can be very effective and proper calibration is essential.

 

[furrycute]

For the Velodyne DD series, do you know if Velodyne uses the same motor or different motors for the different sized subs in that series?

I've been thinking, if one day I can ever save up enough money, I might go for a Velodyne DD series 15inch sub. But if that motor is optimally designed for a 12inch, then I might just go with a DD 12inch sub.


By the way, excellent info on subs, annunaki.

 

[mike c]

For the Velodyne DD series, do you know if Velodyne uses the same motor or different motors for the different sized subs in that series?

I've been thinking, if one day I can ever save up enough money, I might go for a Velodyne DD series 15inch sub. But if that motor is optimally designed for a 12inch, then I might just go with a DD 12inch sub.


By the way, excellent info on subs, annunaki.

im not sure if motor size is related to magnet size ... but the 10 and 12 DD has the same magnet and the 15 and 18 has the same one.

so a jump from the 12 to the 15 is significant.

but the piston diameter is different between sizes

Woofer (Forward Firing): 10" (8" piston diameter) 12" (9.7" piston diameter) 15" (12.7" piston diameter) 18" (15.2" piston diameter)

 

[furrycute]

1 million miles on a Civic? Is that Civic still in one piece?

How in the world do you get 1 million miles on any car??? Is that still the same engine? Or did that guy replace the engine at 500k miles?

Suppose you drive 20k miles per year, that means you need to drive that car for 50 years in order to reach 1 million miles.

Suppose you drive 50k miles per year, that means you need to drive that car for 20 years in order to reach 1 million miles.


Was that Civic the first Civic Honda ever sold in the U.S.? And when did Honda start selling Civics in the U.S.? The 80's? And that's only been what, 30 or so years.

 

[annunaki]

So, a smaller driver will have to travel a larger distance in order to achieve the same SPL as the larger driver. This makes very good sense.

However, this requires the larger driver has a motor of sufficient quality and power to move the larger driver without creating too much distortion. And such a large motor is difficult and expensive to produce.

Actually the motor can essentially be the same, the force just needs to be increased slightly to handle the extra mass accordingly.

There are plenty of small drivers out there that have much distortion. Smaller drivers do not equal less distortion. Linear motors and suspensions equal less distortion regardless of size.

As to the car analogy. How many cars do you see made entirely out of composite materials. If two cars are made of the same materials, pound for pound, the engine in the smaller car has to accelerate significantly less mass than that engine in the bigger. Thus that bigger car needs to have a much more powerful, and refined engine, in order to achieve the same acceleration, and the same quality of acceleration, as the smaller car.


Large motors of such refinement are difficult to design and expensive to produce.

You are understanding this correctly. Larger motors only cost more in terms of material for subwoofers. The design is all the same from the 10" to an 18" within the same brand and series the amount of material simply increases.

 

[annunaki]

For the Velodyne DD series, do you know if Velodyne uses the same motor or different motors for the different sized subs in that series?

I've been thinking, if one day I can ever save up enough money, I might go for a Velodyne DD series 15inch sub. But if that motor is optimally designed for a 12inch, then I might just go with a DD 12inch sub.


By the way, excellent info on subs, annunaki.

Even if it is the same size, as long as the enclosure dimensions reflect the change in the T/S parameters there should not be much issue due to the use of the servo for limiting distortion. The use of a lighter cone/voice coil assembly in the 15" to reach the same mass as the 12" will also work appropriately.

 

[annunaki]

As Mike C indicated they use a shared motor for the 15" and 18" and one for the 10" and the 12". I would not worry about the DD15 being an inaccurate woofer. They understand subwoofer design fairly well.

 

[Thunder18]

So, a smaller driver will have to travel a larger distance in order to achieve the same SPL as the larger driver. This makes very good sense.

However, this requires the larger driver has a motor of sufficient quality and power to move the larger driver without creating too much distortion. And such a large motor is difficult and expensive to produce.


As to the car analogy. How many cars do you see made entirely out of composite materials. If two cars are made of the same materials, pound for pound, the engine in the smaller car has to accelerate significantly less mass than that engine in the bigger. Thus that bigger car needs to have a much more powerful, and refined engine, in order to achieve the same acceleration, and the same quality of acceleration, as the smaller car.


Large motors of such refinement are difficult to design and expensive to produce.

I love car analogies! Ok, here goes: a group of auto reports recently went to Japan to test the new Nissan GT-R owned by a regular citizen that was willing to let them run some pretty brutal acceleration tests. For those that don't know, the GT-R's main target is the Porsche 911 Turbo, MSRP $122,900 via carpoint.com. 0-60 mph in 3.55 sec, 1/4 mile in 11.75 sec @ 124.30 mph and brakes from 60-0 mph in 110 ft. It also weighs in at a relatively light 3,360 lbs(it's light for a twin turbo all wheel drive sports car) and makes 480 hp and 460 lb-ft of torque.

The GT-R on the other hand will be priced starting at just under $70,000 via Edmunds.com. 0-60 mph in 3.3 sec, 1/4 mile in 11.6 sec @ 120.9 mph(on an admittedly slick surface) and brakes from 60-0 mph in 104 feet. The GT-R weighs 3,836 lbs. and does not have the benefit of ceramic composite brakes(for what it's worth, the Edmunds tested 911 Turbo stopped in 103 feet, but ceramic composite brakes add $8,800 to the price of the car for a 1 foot better improvement). Nissan has stated the US spec GT-R will make at least 473 hp and 434 lb-ft of torque.

As several people have mentioned earlier, smaller and lighter is not necessarily superior.

 

[Sheep]

1 million miles on a Civic? Is that Civic still in one piece?

How in the world do you get 1 million miles on any car??? Is that still the same engine? Or did that guy replace the engine at 500k miles?

Suppose you drive 20k miles per year, that means you need to drive that car for 50 years in order to reach 1 million miles.

Suppose you drive 50k miles per year, that means you need to drive that car for 20 years in order to reach 1 million miles.


Was that Civic the first Civic Honda ever sold in the U.S.? And when did Honda start selling Civics in the U.S.? The 80's? And that's only been what, 30 or so years.

Same engine and tranny. 4 clutches, 7 water pumps. I'll find the link.

http://www.autoblog.com/2007/10/01/craigslist-find-of-the-decade-930-000-mile-95-honda-civic/

All of those fixes are regular maintenance.

SheepStar

 

[furrycute]

Like those people on that car page pointed out, Honda should definitely let the owner of this million mile Civic trade it in for a brand new Honda. This car should be in a Honda museum!


With regard to sports cars. I was watching the Discovery channel the other day. They had a segment on future concept cars. There is this one guy one built an electric race car powered 100% by lithium ion batteries. That's right, he uses the same lithium ion batteries you and I use in our laptops. He just uses a WHOLE lot of those batteries. The entire car is almost covered up in lithium batteries.

And he claims that his electric car is the current world 0-60 speed record holder. In that TV segment, he raced his electric car against a Viper, and man, that electric car left the Viper in the dust! This is all due to the electric car's incredible initial torque. It takes the electric car almost no time to reach max torque. But the Viper will eventually out run the electric car once the Viper's engine builds up to max torque.

 

[annunaki]

An F1 car will do 0-62 mph in about 1.5 seconds or so and go from 0-100 mph in around 2.8-3.0 seconds. It will go 0-100-0 mph in about 5.0 seconds. This is all done with a 780 bhp 2.4L V-8 revving to 19,000 rpm.

The V-10 powered monsters from '04 were even quicker in straight line accelration (fractionally) and were making 980+ bhp from just a 3.0L V-10 revving to over19,000 rpm. Honda and Ferrari were developing a 20,000+ rpm V-10 until they regualted the engines to just 8 cylinders. The V-10s sounded so sweet at full song.

That (F1) is a purpose built racecar though. A production sports car doing 0-60 in 2.8 seconds or so is VERY impressive.

 

[Sheep]

That (F1) is a purpose built racecar though. A production sports car doing 0-60 in 2.8 seconds or so is VERY impressive.

Ariel Atom can do 2.9. Honda Powered of course.

SheepStar

 

[annunaki]

The Atom is an impressive machine. The top end supercharged version has an excellent power-to-weight ratio. The Atom is at around 1bhp:3.33 lbs. For a street car, that is phenomenal! The Atom only weighs, if I remember correctly, 1,000 lbs. or 454.5 kilos!

For reference, F1 cars are currently at 1bhp:1.74 lbs with driver. (minimum weight with driver is 1,320 lbs. or 600 kilos)

 

[Bluesmoke]

Ariel Atom can do 2.9. Honda Powered of course.

SheepStar

In consumerland, Honda = reliability. In F1 land, Honda = exploding engines.