blue ray/hd

[Mike1234]

Or you can buy an outboard HDMI transcoder with multiple inputs... but that adds a THIRD box

I think that a good 2nd gen Tosh is more expensive. Then, you have two components instead of 1 and another HDMI to contend with. Then, you need a modern receiver with multiple HDMI inputs.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I think that a good 2nd gen Tosh is more expensive. Then, you have two components instead of 1 and another HDMI to contend with. Then, you need a modern receiver with multiple HDMI inputs.

Yeah, if the upcoming Samsung combo-player can do internal DTS-MA, I am SERIOUSLY considering buying it! I think the problem may be that it will be able to send bitstream of DTS-MA, but not internally decode DTS-MA.

So, yeah, ideally the best player would be a true 1080p combo player that can do outstanding INTERNAL decoding of 7.1 LPCM, TrueHD, & DTS HD MA & send that sound out via LPCM analog 7.1 & HDMI 1.3.
I'll buy it for $1,000.

 

[Micker]

Bd

I was in your boat also, wondering which to get. I laugh at that now after doing some research between the two.

I don't care what anyone says, BD>HD-DVD in all the areas that matter. I was not biased going into my research.

Media: Winner Blu-Ray

50gb br vs 30gb hddvd Hmm, doesn't take much to see that BR discs hold MUCH more datathen hddvd. This whole new technology is basically discs that hold more data then DVD. This should have ended the war by itself.

Technology: Winner Blu-Ray

Blu-Ray max data transfer=54 Mbps; HD-DVD max =36.55 Mbps
Thats right blu-ray offers almost 20 Mbps total data rate over hd-dvd. Blu-ray can do 40Mbps video rate compared to 29.4 Mbps for hddvd. Many blu-ray discs suppport LPCM also which is pure uncompressed audio. HD has truehd(as does BR), but uncompressed audio isn't as common as with BR. Probably due to these above data rate limits. If an HD-DVD transfer uses high bitrate for video, there isn't much left for audio. Many blu ray titles use video bitrates alone that are higher then HDs audio/video combined. BR media itself is very scratch resistant also, not sure aoub hd-dvd.

Movies: Winner Blu Ray

With only 2 studios supporting HD-DVD exclusively, and 5 supporting blu-ray exclusively, blu ray has a big advantage in the movie department. I looked at the HD-DVD library and there are few titles I would want on hd-dvd that I can't get on blu-ray(king kong, transformers, bourne series). Last time I went to the video store with my friend, who doesn't have any idea what bluray/hddvd is really, I asked him to pick which selection of movies he would rather shop from. He looked at both and said these suck, when looking at the hddvd side.

Price: Winner HD-DVD(sort of)

Right now HD-DVD player prices are cheaper then BR. Now the PS3 is gonna be available for $399 retail and is WAY more then just a BR player. So not only are you getting one of the best BR players, but a wifi internet box and an awesome game machine!! The movies themselves seem to be cheaper for Bluray, which is the most important. You can easily spend hundreds of dollars on movies, so a $5-10 per disc price difference will add up to much more then the $100 you saved on the player.

That is my case for why I choose Blu Ray over HD-DVD. To me its not even a contest, but everyone is different. I think the people who support hd-dvd are people who bought the players because they were much cheaper at the start and now try to justify their purchase of lesser technology.

 

[dobyblue]

I also did a little comparison with the movie "300" on blu-ray, comparing LPCM, TrueHD, & DD. I honestly cannot tell the difference among the three sound formats. But I will always choose the Uncompressed Audio LPCM when watching the movie! I'm thinking LPCM has to sound the best.

Both PCM and TrueHD tracks on "300" are 16/48 so they should sound the same.

You would be better to compare different sources - the Spiderman 3 PCM track will be 16/48 but the TrueHD will be 24/48, matching the studio master.
If you tested them back and forth at the same levels, see if you have the same result. The TrueHD track will be the better of the two, but whether or not it sounds better I wait to see.

 

[mtrycrafts]

but the TrueHD will be 24/48, matching the studio master.
If you tested them back and forth at the same levels, see if you have the same result. The TrueHD track will be the better of the two, but whether or not it sounds better I wait to see.

There is an AES paper, testing under controlled conditions, the hi res audio formats, DVD-A and SACD and the same track reduced to Red Book CD resolution. I believe they had at least 30 listeners. No one could hear a difference.

By the way, where is it spelled out how each audio track is encoded?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Both PCM and TrueHD tracks on "300" are 16/48 so they should sound the same.

You would be better to compare different sources - the Spiderman 3 PCM track will be 16/48 but the TrueHD will be 24/48, matching the studio master.
If you tested them back and forth at the same levels, see if you have the same result. The TrueHD track will be the better of the two, but whether or not it sounds better I wait to see.

Wow, good to know. I will have to compare the Spiderman 3 PCM vs TrueHD. But even if I can't tell a difference, you know I'll be watching with the TrueHD because of the higher audio resolution! Good to know.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I don't care what anyone says, BD>HD-DVD in all the areas that matter. I was not biased going into my research.

Media: Winner Blu-Ray

Technology: Winner Blu-Ray

Movies: Winner Blu Ray

Price: Winner HD-DVD(sort of)

Scratching: Winner Blu-ray since it has anti-scratch coating & HD DVD does not. For some weird reasons I don't leave my HD movies in their original cases. So I put them in a separate CD/DVD case---you know one of those 300+ holders? I later noticed that all the HD DVD movies were scratched a little, but none of the Blu-ray were scratched at all!

Having experienced both HD DVD & Blu-ray, I have to say that Blu-ray is my preferred choice. If there must be only one, then let it be blu-ray!

 

[dobyblue]

There is an AES paper, testing under controlled conditions, the hi res audio formats, DVD-A and SACD and the same track reduced to Red Book CD resolution. I believe they had at least 30 listeners. No one could hear a difference.

By the way, where is it spelled out how each audio track is encoded?

What kind of controlled conditions though? What was the source material originally encoded as? Analogue reel? 24/48? 16/48? 24/192?

As for the audio track - on Blu-ray Walt Disney (Touchstone, Buena Vista, Hollywood Pictures, Pixar) list the bit rate they're using on each release. Sony has an engineer who posts on the insider forum at www.blu-ray.com and posts what the bit depths are on each release when asked.

Spider-man
source = 16/48
blu-ray = 24/48 (TrueHD)

Spider-man 2
source = 24/48
blu-ray = 24/48 (TrueHD)

Spider-man 3
source = 24/48
blu-ray = 16/48 (PCM) 24/48 (TrueHD)

The original Spider-man will show a lowed abr than the recent two due to the TrueHD track capturing a 16/48 master.

For Lionsgate titles all the PCM tracks so far have been mostly 16/48 7.1

Fox/MGM titles all use DTS-HD Master Audio which is 24/48 regardless of source

Warner's PCM tracks have been 16/48 so far (you can read the bitrate meter on the PS3 to figure this out; 16/48 5.1 = 4.608 Mbps, 24/48 5.1 = 6.912 Mbps, etc.)

SonyBMG post what they use on their website - http://sonybmg.com/bluray/
So far the highest fidelity recordings they have issued are the Chris Botti using 24/96 5.1 PCM and the Dave Matthews and Tim Reynolds Live from Radio City Music Hall using 24/96 5.1 TrueHD.

That Dave Matthews disc is the best aural surround experience I've heard from anything other than SACD and DVD-Audio - it's literally flawless and the high bitrate VC-1 encode is bang on reference material too.

AC/DC Live at Donington is 24/48 5.1 PCM (brand new HD transfer from original 35mm film)
David Gilmour Live at the Royal Albert Hall is Dolby TrueHD 24/48 5.1

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I just called Panasonic Tech Support for the heck of it and asked if they are working on a firmware for DTS-HD MA. The guy seemed "relatively" informed. He sounded confident when he said that the "Engineers are working on DTS-HD MA internal decoding capability for the Panasonic blu-ray". Right! Maybe if I called 10 people I will get 10 different answers?

 

[mtrycrafts]

What kind of controlled conditions though? What was the source material originally encoded as? Analogue reel? 24/48? 16/48? 24/192?

The highest resolution that was available on selected SACD and DVD-A. That is what is available to the audiophiles and for them to make claims about audible differences. The player decoded the material to analog signal, amplified and went to speakers.
That analog signal was also captured before amplification and had a Red book ADA process, amplified by the same amp and sent to the same speakers, of course.
So, I suspect it was at least 24/96 on SACD and DVD-A.

 

[dobyblue]

I just called Panasonic Tech Support for the heck of it and asked if they are working on a firmware for DTS-HD MA. The guy seemed "relatively" informed. He sounded confident when he said that the "Engineers are working on DTS-HD MA internal decoding capability for the Panasonic blu-ray". Right! Maybe if I called 10 people I will get 10 different answers?

He could be talking about the new DMP-BD30K.
It's not been announced yet, but people that work at BBY and other places are reporting that it is showing up as a SKU in their system with an MSRP of $499 which means it could street at $399. It also shows up as a SKU on the Bluray website for five free movies:
http://bluraysavings.com/

It is fully expected this player will decode and bitstream DTS-MA.

 

[davidtwotrees]

the blu ray hypnobeam....

He could be talking about the new DMP-BD30K.
..................
It is fully expected this player will decode and bitstream DTS-MA.

I can just see the Hypnobeam entering acudeftech's head....
he has this faraway look on his face.
Must....have....dmpbd30K. ......must decode dts-ma.......must have.......

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

He could be talking about the new DMP-BD30K.
It's not been announced yet, but people that work at BBY and other places are reporting that it is showing up as a SKU in their system with an MSRP of $499 which means it could street at $399. It also shows up as a SKU on the Bluray website for five free movies:
http://bluraysavings.com/

It is fully expected this player will decode and bitstream DTS-MA.

Holy cow, Batman! Life is just not fair.
You must be pulling my chain, right? I just bought the DMP-10AK for about $600 3 months ago!

I can just see the Hypnobeam entering acudeftech's head....
he has this faraway look on his face.
Must....have....dmpbd30K. ......must decode dts-ma.......must have.......

MUST......HAVE......DMP-BD30K.......MUST DECODE DTS-MA......MUST HAVE..

Damn straight! I know my HT Piggy Bank is pretty much depleted right now, but if that DMP-BD30K comes out X-Mas, I'm taking a HT Piggy Bank Loan!

Please, please, please tell me it's true. Man, I hope this is not just a mean joke!

 

[Gasman]

I have both, but I will say that my pref. is my 2 HD DVD players, over my single BD player.

They have a much better menu system, and the PQ is about identical.
Also, I am VERY mad, that my BD-P1200 will not currently play 2 BD movies that just came out.
(mainly FF2, is my gripe)

Not sure how many movies I have in both formats (close to 100 combined, although about 70% are HD DVD)

When I pre-order, and movie is on both formats, I will do HD DVD.
Last pre-order was Harry Potter 1-5 limited edition gift set. (and yes, on HD DVD)

It does suck though, as Terminator set is mixed, 2 BD and 1 HD DVD.

Granted, I am one of those that don't care about a format war.
I just want ALL the HD discs I can afford.

 

[dobyblue]

Holy cow, Batman! Life is just not fair.
You must be pulling my chain, right? I just bought the DMP-10AK for about $600 3 months ago!



MUST......HAVE......DMP-BD30K.......MUST DECODE DTS-MA......MUST HAVE..

Damn straight! I know my HT Piggy Bank is pretty much depleted right now, but if that DMP-BD30K comes out X-Mas, I'm taking a HT Piggy Bank Loan!

Please, please, please tell me it's true. Man, I hope this is not just a mean joke!

From everything I can see it is true. I think Panasonic are maybe waiting for the 10.31.07 deadline to announce it, perhaps to get the first profile 1.1 player on the market.

It should definitely have DTS-MA bitstream and decoding on it though, Keith Jack from Sigma has confirmed that the newest chips from them do both and has also confirmed that new players will be announced before the holidays.

From September 30th:

Actually four SoCs. You're forgetting the NEC EMMA3, and there is another one that is not widely known about yet that will be appearing in yet-to-be-anounced BD players just before the holidays. Oops, five counting the new STM chip...

The timeline on the Panny DMP-BD30K has to be soon because it's listed as being one of the players for the current Blu-ray Disc Association's 5 free discs promotion which runs from October 1st, 2007 to January 31st, 2008.

Also, I am VERY mad, that my BD-P1200 will not currently play 2 BD movies that just came out.
(mainly FF2, is my gripe)

Those two titles that came out last Tuesday? Firmware update is already posted to allow them to work properly on the BD-P1200.
http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/Firmware_Upgrades_(18_posts)/Samsung/Technical_Glitches/Samsung_Firmware_Update_Corrects_Playback_Issues_on_New_Fox_Titles/1056

When I pre-order, and movie is on both formats, I will do HD DVD.
Last pre-order was Harry Potter 1-5 limited edition gift set. (and yes, on HD DVD)

I will do Blu-ray because I know the audio is more consistent. You may see some titles soon on HD DVD with 16/48 TrueHD whereas the Blu-ray will have 24/48 TrueHD and 16/48 PCM. The Harry Potter flicks, all the deleted scenes and special features are in 1080p whereas on the HD DVD they're only in standard definition. They were SHOT in 1080p though. Space is becoming a factor.

It does suck though, as Terminator set is mixed, 2 BD and 1 HD DVD.

Only if you bought T3 already. It will be on Blu-ray with a TrueHD and PCM track before the end of Q2/08 (if not by this Christmas)

 

[dobyblue]

Doby, we are talking about a .1 point difference on image qualty, a bit more on audio, but both are still excellent.

I agree with you and the audio is the reason I went with Blu-ray.
The PQ is a wash thanks to so many ported transfers. I believe if everyone were encoding to optimize Blu-ray's higher bandwith you would see more discrepancy with PQ as well.

When you look at it by studio, Disney is well in the lead in PQ and then Sony. No doubt if Fox keeps up their 36-37 Mbps encodes they'll be up there too.

 

[Gasman]

Those two titles that came out last Tuesday? Firmware update is already posted to allow them to work properly on the BD-P1200.
http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/Firmware_Upgrades_(18_posts)/Samsung/Technical_Glitches/Samsung_Firmware_Update_Corrects_Playback_Issues_on_New_Fox_Titles/1056

WooHoo, thanks.
I checked HighDefDigest yesterday, and it was not up (I see it went up today).
Will do the FW update, and check the FF2 disc.

Thanks.

Although, by no means does that change my stance.

 

[dobyblue]

Although, by no means does that change my stance.

Not even on Harry Potter, knowing that you're getting more HD on Blu-ray??

 

[BMXTRIX]

Not even on Harry Potter, knowing that you're getting more HD on Blu-ray??

I think there are two main reasons people like HD DVD that are very legitimate...

1. HD DVD costs less to get into. Forget manufacturing, forget that players may be subsidized. When a consumer is buying HD DVD, or has bought HD DVD, they almost always say, that it was at a price they could afford.

2. HD DVD is more stable. Whether it is true or not, HD DVD has been fairly quick with their firmware updates and they are able to push those updates via the Internet. While Blu-ray players are every bit as capable of being stable, there is only one player that has reached this level - The PS3. Yet, all HD DVD players get pushed firmware updates quickly and there is much of the HD DVD spec that is already set so that the firmware push isn't even necessary.

On the other hand, Blu-ray comes across as truly being a newer technology that can deliver more. Faster transfers, more data, updated specifications across the board. The early adopters are feeling some growing pains with the technology and product development has been a bit slow. This is typical with brand new product - you have to develop all the tools necessary to allow for people to utilize the format easily. Since HD DVD really uses more existing technologies, this is easier, but may prove to be limited. For Blu-ray it may be far more robust, but it may take a few years before many of those technologies are utilized in meaningful fashion.

At the end of the day though, price on all technologies will continue to drop. Blu-ray has about 80%+ of CE support, and it currently has more studio support. So, if in a year or two we see a $120 HD DVD player, we may see 4 or 5 Blu-ray players that run $150 each. Then we either buy both - or the studios decide which format will win.

I gotta say, studios are likely to have a huge impact on this format war. In fact, they already have. Going forward, if Universal goes neutral, which may be possible if repeated rumors of a contract with HD DVD ending in January 2008 come true... then people will possibly wonder how long before Paramount returns to neutral - as it is reported under an 18 month contract as well.

No reports have surfaced about Disney or Fox being under contract the way they have for Paramount/Universal, but odds are good that there is some sort of kick back to them as well. Yet, no indication of a move towards neutrality at any specific date.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Are there any HD DVD titles with DTS-HD MA?
I know that Fox, Lionsgate, MGM are all about DTS-HD MA, but they are all blu-ray. Seems like DTS-MA is picking up some momentum.

I'm going to have to watch all those DTS-MA movies again when I get my hands on that DMP-BD30K.

Now if all HD DVD movies were in TrueHD, it might be a different story!