Biwiring mystery

[tellyman]

Just joined to say thanks to all the admin and users for a great forum

i stumbled upon the forum when searching google for advice on whether or not biwiring speakers made any improvement to sound quality

Every time i end up at this forum, i for some reason get addicted to reading comments from mtrycrafts which are often sarcastic and amusing but in my opinion 99% honest and correct

i have just upgraded and purchased some monitor audio gr60 speakers for use with my ageing technics su-a900mk2 amp and denon 1730 dvd payer (mainly used as a cd player via analogue connectors)

i am a television video and computer engineer in the uk and was always puzzled as to why speaker manufacturers provide terminals to bi-wire. All my electrical knowledge tells me that it is unlikely to improve things.

i was puzzled as to why manufacturers did it and slightly doubted my electrical background and experience.

Speaker Cables

i have always known about speaker cable size being the most important consideration and find it incredible that people spend so much money on pointless expensive cables.


thanks again for a fantasic forum

 

[Johnd]

i am a television video and computer engineer in the uk and was always puzzled as to why speaker manufacturers provide terminals to bi-wire. All my electrical knowledge tells me that it is unlikely to improve things.

i was puzzled as to why manufacturers did it and slightly doubted my electrical background and experience.

Hey tellyman, welcome to the forum.

Yeah, I'll have to agree with you on mtry...he can be pretty good.

Understand that what you refer to as biwiring capability on speakers doubles as biamping capability. Either can be hotly contested here, but the general consensus is that biwiring is a waste, whereas biamping can be hugely beneficial if done correctly with the appropriate amp and speakers.

So, you are correct sir (biwiring not being beneficial). Oddly enough, Paradigm, the manufacturer of my speakers, suggests biwiring as a way to improve sq. Hmmmm...

Cheers.

 

[mtrycrafts]

So, you are correct sir (biwiring not being beneficial). Oddly enough, Paradigm, the manufacturer of my speakers, suggests biwiring as a way to improve sq. Hmmmm...

Cheers.

Yes, it is odd indeed. I have called their tech department about it to ask if they had experimented with buy-wiring under DBt conditions since they are more than set up to do such research and comparisons. The answer was no, they didn't test it period.
So, a company that practices DBt when they try to improve their speakers but fail to do so for the bi- whatever terminals.
In the end, they are also trying to sell speakers and capture those who want that feature, no matter what.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Just joined to say thanks to all the admin and users for a great forum
i stumbled upon the forum when searching google for advice on whether or not biwiring speakers made any improvement to sound quality
Every time i end up at this forum, i for some reason get addicted to reading comments from mtrycrafts which are often sarcastic and amusing but in my opinion 99% honest and correct
i have just upgraded and purchased some monitor audio gr60 speakers for use with my ageing technics su-a900mk2 amp and denon 1730 dvd payer (mainly used as a cd player via analogue connectors)
i am a television video and computer engineer in the uk and was always puzzled as to why speaker manufacturers provide terminals to bi-wire. All my electrical knowledge tells me that it is unlikely to improve things.
i was puzzled as to why manufacturers did it and slightly doubted my electrical background and experience.

Speaker Cables

i have always known about speaker cable size being the most important consideration and find it incredible that people spend so much money on pointless expensive cables.
thanks again for a fantasic forum

Welcome
How can I resist not responding when I was mentioned by name
I guess I caught your attention What can I say. Each of us have different personalities and methods responding to questions and some posters.

Enjoy your stay and hopefully it will be a long one.

There is a couple of posts on buy-wiring with inputs from some smart persons, jneutron being one of them.
Under some conditions, there is a condition that in the calculations a term of 2AB for the current of two different frequency comes up. That 2AB seems to be the crux but so far it cannot be demonstrated that this makes an audible difference. After all, we measure well below levels of audibility, so why not this, right?

The marketeers are masters of the human psychology and behavior and the marketplace is about selling and making money, so, there is no limit what they will do and you see the results with speaker cables and when you look at most any other consumer marketplace, you will find it similar.
Enjoy and welcome.

 

[tellyman]

biamping reasons

Hey tellyman, welcome to the forum.


Understand that what you refer to as biwiring capability on speakers doubles as biamping capability. Either can be hotly contested here, but the general consensus is that biwiring is a waste, whereas biamping can be hugely beneficial if done correctly with the appropriate amp and speakers.


Cheers.

Thanks for the replies guys

The bit i understand

ok biwiring (for most audiophiles) is accepted as rather pointless in terms of audible improvements.

the bit that slightly confuses me

Biamping :- i have not read anything about biamping but my uderstanding is that you drive the low frequencies with one amp and the high freq with another. i suppose tri-amping is also used by some

Does this mean that you are dissapointed with either the Lf or Hf signal output from your amp hence the need to connect two amps.

Surely if you purchased an amplifier and are happy with its sound characteristics there would be no audible improvements to bi-amping.

If you already owned two amps that were both dissapointing in different ways, you could bi-amp them and possibly achieve an acceptable solution.


My conclusion

I love listening to music and although i can see why people would bi-amp.I personnally would rather change my speakers or amp if i was unhappy with the sound.

Or am i missing the point of bi-amping or something else that is blindingly obvious

 

[Johnd]

Surely if you purchased an amplifier and are happy with its sound characteristics there would be no audible improvements to bi-amping.

Untrue.

Some are happy with an Ipod and a $5 pair of earbuds.

Others are happy with their Emotiva and Bowers and Wilkins.

Some of us will occasionally modify, tweak or augment our 10k or 20k system in our quest for audio nirvana.

I believe the general rule is: if you are happy and desire no more...leave it alone.

But just because one is "happy with its sound characteristics" does not mean biamping would provide no "audible improvements." If you are lacking headroom, biamping is an excellent option (if more power is available). Also, if one is biamping with separate power sources, the demand on each individual power supply will be lessened, which in turn keeps the amp more stable, which in turn minimizes rail voltage sag, which in turn can improve sq. POWER! Better yet, CLEAN POWER!!!

The editors here have written a simple article on this topic:
http://www.audioholics.com/education/frequently-asked-questions/the-difference-between-biamping-vs-biwiring

I tend to agree: if one has the available power: try it if you are so inclined. The benefits may be negligible, but even modest improvements in sq for little $ is a worthwhile endeavor imho. Cheers.

 

[Seth=L]

Just joined to say thanks to all the admin and users for a great forum

i stumbled upon the forum when searching google for advice on whether or not biwiring speakers made any improvement to sound quality

Every time i end up at this forum, i for some reason get addicted to reading comments from mtrycrafts which are often sarcastic and amusing but in my opinion 99% honest and correct

i have just upgraded and purchased some monitor audio gr60 speakers for use with my ageing technics su-a900mk2 amp and denon 1730 dvd payer (mainly used as a cd player via analogue connectors)

i am a television video and computer engineer in the uk and was always puzzled as to why speaker manufacturers provide terminals to bi-wire. All my electrical knowledge tells me that it is unlikely to improve things.

i was puzzled as to why manufacturers did it and slightly doubted my electrical background and experience.

Speaker Cables

i have always known about speaker cable size being the most important consideration and find it incredible that people spend so much money on pointless expensive cables.


thanks again for a fantasic forum

Plainly stated, the idea of bi-wiring is a marketing tactic to get you to buy more "high quality" speaker cabling.

That isn't to say Bi-wiring (if done under a certain set of guidelines) can't be beneficial. In order for Bi-wiring to offer any definitive advantage the passive x-over in the speaker system must be over-riden and an active x-over should be used, other wise their is no "sonic" advantage to Bi-wiring. It could be argued that it makes an electric difference, however it is so minute it isn't likely that one could make a sonic differential between standard Bi-wire (not active x-over and passive x-over is used) over a traditional one strand wire connection.

Bi-amping can offer advantages in particular situations as well, but once again if not implemented correctly presents little to no adantages depending on the listener's habits. Hybrid electrastic speakers should be Bi-wired for example. The ESL panel and woofer have completely different drive characteristics and should be addressed by driving the ESL panel with a very load tolerant amplifier (Class A and some other hybrid amplifiers like Sunfire offer amplifiers that can be used safely with ESL panels. Sunfire is probably the least expensive solution to driving ESL panels). The woofer section could be driven properly with a Class A, assuming it is a transistor and not tube amplifier as well as Class B, Class A/B, Class D and a few other variations.

Bi-amping can also be done with active x-overs and can get you double the power or near it depending on the amplifier, amplifiers, or electrical circuits (you house's electical setup can also affect your total output power).

 

[jonnythan]

Leaving the terminals off may imply to many "audiophiles" that the speakers are inferior to those that are bi-wireable.

Combine this with the fact that bi-amping can actually improve sound quality and it'd be stupid to produce speakers that didn't have two pairs of terminals.

 

[Seth=L]

Leaving the terminals off may imply to many "audiophiles" that the speakers are inferior to those that are bi-wireable.

Combine this with the fact that bi-amping can actually improve sound quality and it'd be stupid to produce speakers that didn't have two pairs of terminals.

Some companies skip bi-wire ability to save cost and help the very educated but penny pinching audioholic/or some other person with extensive understanding on audio...blah, blah, blah... One such company is AV123. They don't put but one set of binding posts on most of their speakers.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Biamping :- i have not read anything about biamping but my uderstanding is that you drive the low frequencies with one amp and the high freq with another. i suppose tri-amping is also used by some

Does this mean that you are dissapointed with either the Lf or Hf signal output from your amp hence the need to connect two amps.

Surely if you purchased an amplifier and are happy with its sound characteristics there would be no audible improvements to bi-amping.

If you already owned two amps that were both dissapointing in different ways, you could bi-amp them and possibly achieve an acceptable solution.


My conclusion

I love listening to music and although i can see why people would bi-amp.I personnally would rather change my speakers or amp if i was unhappy with the sound.

Or am i missing the point of bi-amping or something else that is blindingly obvious

Multi amping becomes beneficial when you have an active crossover before the amps for each driver and amps are tailored to each driver's needs. Each driver has a impedance band and sensitivity band that may be different from the other drivers in the speaker, so you can tailor your amp to each driver to deliver the sound levels you need for your listening pleasure at a certain listening distance from the speakers. Yes, distance from the speaker needs to be accounted for as spl drops. However, a speaker system and driver, in a multi amp setup must be able to deliver the spl levels with minimal THD or it is all for nothing

A most interesting article on this that explains it in detail:

"Optimizing your Audio System" by D. Barrie Haverluck, part 1 Audio Electronics, 3/98, p 16-27, and part 2, same mag, 5/98 p 30-43.
Try inter library loans

If your listening need is average, no high average spl levels, no real need for multi amping.