Audio Critic's Ten Biggest Lies

[mtrycrafts]

Yes, thanks. But, back to my post and tank temperatures I posted as I don't have your dilemma of 2 girls no reason for the tank to rust and the external blanket reduces heat loss and money to the utility.

 

[Sheep]

Whom are you addressing here, or asking the question?

Anyone that might know.. There is a lot of stuff they didn't cover. I was just wondering if they made another one with more lies.

SheepStar

 

[Highlander]

I think...one should constantly strive to learn more...

To what end?

 

[jneutron]

Yes, thanks. But, back to my post and tank temperatures I posted as I don't have your dilemma of 2 girls no reason for the tank to rust and the external blanket reduces heat loss and money to the utility.

Ok..your post.

You said he had 20 years, and he teaches the stuff.

Now, why do you think foam lining came about as a replacement for fiberglass lining?

It provides a better (not perfect) barrier to moisture intrusion for times when the tank surface falls below the dew point temperature. Historically, this mechanism has caused premature tank failures.

Now, given his length of experience, I would believe he was well aware of the problem caused by the fiberglass, and the fact that condensation can occur underneath it, and that it is mitigated by the end user requirements, such as type of family unit (girls, boys, retired..)

Was he to explain to you all the various reasonings behind the standard assertion regarding fiberglass blankets? Was he aware of the root knowledge, or was it an industry learned standard? Was he to ask you what your water demands were?

Are there even more reasonings behind not placing additional fiberglass blankets over existing foam lined tanks??? He apparently did not offer, and you apparently did not ask. And I have not researched for more reasons.

Bottom line....It appears that you may have been a bit hasty in you mindset. I know of at least one technical reason...and sheesh, I'm not even a technical kinda guy..

Cheers, John

 

[Rickster71]

Umm, Mtry? He was correct.

Example, .......... (this can be seen by putting a pot of water on a gas stove...immediate condensation occurs on the external surface especially above where the flames are, and when the water inside exceeds the dew point of the exhaust, the condensation dissapears.
Cheers, John

Hi jneutron,
In your example it looks like you are making mytr's point for him.
You wrote:"and when the water inside exceeds the dew point of the exhaust, the condensation dissapears"

I say:So in my opinion, there is no rust without moister!

Allow me to explain where this 'old wife's tale' came from. IMHO
When a plumber has to replace an old water heater, he has to remove the old fiberglass blanket first. All the fibers are flying around the basement, and all over him or her.
Then when he installs the new one, the homeowner asks him to please replace the blanket on the new heater. The master plumber hates getting full of fibers. (who wouldn't?)
So to circumvent all this, they dupe the homeowner into believing the plumber's pseudoreasoning, somehow belies the laws of chemistry.

 

[jneutron]

Hi jneutron,
In your example it looks like you are making mytr's point for him.
You wrote:"and when the water inside exceeds the dew point of the exhaust, the condensation dissapears"

You are incorrect.

Mtry assumed incorrectly, that the tank surface temperature will remain high enough to prevent condensation. That is an incorrect assumption, and one that the plumber cannot arbitrarily make.

The ONLY time I have had unlimited hot water is with a direct fired oil burner, and that luxury decays with time as scale builds up on the inside of the exchanger over time as well as soot and oxide on the outer surfaces. Typical 40 gallon gas or electric hot water heaters can be run cold, especially if there are no water restrictors in the shower head, if you have a jacuzzi type tub, or if you have several teenage girls.

If you ever have had occasion to run out of hot water (I believe all humans have at one time or another), why would you assume that the tank wall temperature remained at 120 to 140 F????? Think about it, it's water cooled...from a source that's typically at 50 F.

Note: It strikes me that most of you may not know what dewpoint really is. It is a measure of the humidity content of the air, it's just represented as a temperature. If the dewpoint of the air is 60 F, that just means that there is enough moisture in the air that a surface at 60 F will condense moisture, but above that it will not. If you increase the humidity, the dewpoint temperature will increase.

In my example, the result of combustion of gas on the stove creates an exhaust stream which has ADDITIONAL moisture within...one of the byproducts of gas burning is water... The dew point of the exhaust of the gas is higher as a result. This means that even though the pot temperature exceeds the dewpoint of the kitchen air, it is below that of the moisture laden gas stream combustion products. For a simpler example of this, slowly blow hot breath on a mirror... before you do so, there is no visible condensation on the surface, when you breath, there is. This is because the dew point of your breath is above the surface temperature of the mirror.

I say:So in my opinion, there is no rust without moister!

Again, that is incorrect. Rust is iron oxide. It requires only oxygen to grow, air is 1/5th oxygen. A wet one does indeed accelerate the process, and that acceleration is what the plumber wished to prevent. And not only does water accelerate the process, water at 120 to 140 F REALLY accelerates the process until the heat dries out the rest of the water. I would worry about the weld seams the most, as the tank metal immediately next to the weld bead will be the first place rust occurs. This because of the temperature the metal went through during the welding. Even stainless can rust at the welds because of the weld heat driving carbon.


As to your "old wives tale"...Working with fiberglass cloth is indeed messy, aggravating, problematic with regard to breathing concerns, and something I agree most people would prefer not to do.

But not the impetus for the plumber's explanation. It is not a conspiracy.

Cheers, John

 

[Rickster71]

jneutron,
I agree that moisture will form; and your dew point explanation is correct.

My contention is this, as the tank reheats the moisture will dry up.

An example would be a cars exhaust system.
Whenever a car is started (especially in the cold) the muffler will fill with condensation. As the engine and exhaust system heats up the trapped water dries.

 

[jneutron]

My contention is this, as the tank reheats the moisture will dry up.

Then we are in complete agreement.

But before it dries up, it aids the oxidation process.

Cheers, John

 

[no. 5]

To what end?

"...The object of opening the mind, as of opening the mouth, is to shut it again on something solid."
-G.K. Chesterton

 

[Highlander]

"...The object of opening the mind, as of opening the mouth, is to shut it again on something solid."

No. You provide an explanation for why we "open the mind" to learn. I asked why we should continuously strive to learn. The two are not the same.

 

[avaserfi]

No. You provide an explanation for why we "open the mind" to learn. I asked why we should continuously strive to learn. The two are not the same.

The real question you should ask is not why we should continuously strive to learn, but why not?

I for one see no reason to stop.

 

[Highlander]

The real question you should ask is not why we should continuously strive to learn, but why not?

Easy; learning isn't everything.

 

[avaserfi]

Easy; learning isn't everything.

Maybe that statement is true, but that still doesn't answer the question. All that says is why, perhaps, we shouldn't spend all of our time learning which is different from continuously striving to learn. One can continuously learn by simply reading a chapter from a book everyday. So if they are continuously striving to learn an act as simple as reading can fulfill that end.

 

[Highlander]

All that says is why, perhaps, we shouldn't spend all of our time learning which is different from continuously striving to learn.

I agree. However, saying we should strive for something simply because there appears to be no better reason not to isn't a particularly good argument for encouraging striving for that thing, in this instance learning.

 

[MDS]

I agree. However, saying we should strive for something simply because there appears to be no better reason not to isn't a particularly good argument for encouraging striving for that thing, in this instance learning.

I have no idea where you are going with your line of reasoning. Is the argument that one should not strive to learn more unless there is a good 'reason' to do so?

 

[Highlander]

I have no idea where you are going with your line of reasoning. Is the argument that one should not strive to learn more unless there is a good 'reason' to do so?

Not at all, and what makes you think I'm going anywhere? I have no agenda here. I'm simply attempting to determine why one should strive continuously to learn. So far the only reason put forth is that...there's no better reason not to!

You originally wrote the words. What did you mean by them?

 

[agarwalro]

The thread went from Audio Lies to Boiler Room so fast...

amplifiers that aren't powerful enough to deliver dynamics

Which means they will be clipping when driven too produce that much power. Clipping I understand is relatively easy to discern.

 

[no. 5]

No. You provide an explanation for why we "open the mind" to learn. I asked why we should continuously strive to learn. The two are not the same.

I was just throwing out a quote that was in a similar tenor as MDS' post.

As for anything further, I do not see the need for myself to continue in a discussion about general learning on an audio forum... but that's just me.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Ok..your post.

You said he had 20 years, and he teaches the stuff.

Now, why do you think foam lining came about as a replacement for fiberglass lining?

It provides a better (not perfect) barrier to moisture intrusion for times when the tank surface falls below the dew point temperature. Historically, this mechanism has caused premature tank failures.

Now, given his length of experience, I would believe he was well aware of the problem caused by the fiberglass, and the fact that condensation can occur underneath it, and that it is mitigated by the end user requirements, such as type of family unit (girls, boys, retired..)

Was he to explain to you all the various reasonings behind the standard assertion regarding fiberglass blankets? Was he aware of the root knowledge, or was it an industry learned standard? Was he to ask you what your water demands were?

Are there even more reasonings behind not placing additional fiberglass blankets over existing foam lined tanks??? He apparently did not offer, and you apparently did not ask. And I have not researched for more reasons.

Bottom line....It appears that you may have been a bit hasty in you mindset. I know of at least one technical reason...and sheesh, I'm not even a technical kinda guy..

Cheers, John

Oh, I asked indeed. Not a single question or answer of any kind. Same with other culprits he came up with such as having a parallel system of pipes, how to measure or test for the difference in the temperature of the internal thermometer, the delta between turn on and turn off as that was the issue he came out for. Oh, he also blamed a sink faucet brand Moen, as a culprit. 'Just because' is not an answer from a master anything.
My mindset came after all the simple stuff he had no real answers, or what he offered up as the cause of my problem, rusting was not it.

I still don't see how added insulation will make the issue worse, whether there is 2" of foam or 2" + 3 in of fiber on top.
Of course you are a technical kind of guy

 

[mtrycrafts]

The thread went from Audio Lies to Boiler Room so fast...

Which means they will be clipping when driven too produce that much power. Clipping I understand is relatively easy to discern.

Shows you we are not just one tracked minds around here

Excessive clipping is driving an amp beyond its design limits, all bets of sound changes are off at clipping One of the givens is withing design limits.