Trying to understand AUDIO RESOLUTION and how it relates to our disc players

[mtrycrafts]

I know the laser can move up and down in a recipricating motion on most players now (don't know about oldies). Maybe that could account for something.

That accounts for the layer change as the layers are at different depth from the surface. So, instead of refocusing the laser, they are repositioning it?

 

[MDS]

Some players have 'dual pickups' (one for reading DVD and one for reading CD) and some have one that can be configured to the proper wavelength. Regardless, you need the shorter wavelength laser to read the pits and lands on a DVD because they are spaced closer together than on a CD.

My point was simply that one cannot say with any certainty that a dedicated CD player will do a better job reading CDs than a DVD player. As long as each uses the proper wavelength laser light to read the disc in question, the result should be identical.

 

[Seth=L]

What makes me laugh is when DVD players were in their first couple of years everyone was saying the DVD players offered superior CD playback to stand alone players. Of course this was when I was a young newb and was more entranced with woofer cone movement, you remember the mezmerising woofer exerting and wondering how it did that?, of course you do.

It still seems so odd they would put two lasers in the DVD player. The player was a flagship model of that time, and I have owned other players as old and older that did not have this feature. I will try to find more on this topic and start a seperate thread if it is necessary.

 

[timetohunt]

In response to what disc player I have - its a Panasonic DVD-S52, but while its new - its also just a stop gap until I find what I really want. I bought it because I finally wanted to hear the new HDCDs that are being released by Rhino for the Grateful Dead. Paid only $79 on sale. Does DVD-As, but surround off of DVD-As with HDMI only. A couple more questions follow (as if we have not raised enough in this thread).

1. Do I get full resolution using this player when playing my DVD-As in stereo?
It am playing them with my toslink connect (no HDMI receiver yet) but I'm not sure if I am getting the full benefit.

2. One of the last posts noted the terms "direct" and "pure direct". I can use "direct" with my receiver but I believe it simply bypasses tone controls and so forth - not necessarily taking the signal directly to amp (ie. still digitizes analog input). Its a Pioneer VSX-816. I really like this cheap little receiver (but that too will be changed up in my near future). I did have to amp my fronts separately, cuz the 816 has amp stabiltiy problems with certain speakers (no need to get into that - its been well researched and documented and cut off on me many times until I got a separate amp). I use a pro audio style peavy amp for those fronts, preouted from the receiver, ok so far but the fan is loud. The peavey may go in the dumper as well, but its fine until I figure out what I want to do. The only constant is my Klipsch mains an sub(s) - they are not going anywhere. While they are not top of the line, I'm not rich and lucky to have those (gift from wifey).

 

[ronnie 1.8]

If you connect a dvd player to the receiver using analog connections, the receiver will do a/d on the signal so that it can apply bass management and use surround decoders like PLII.

So when I play my DVDA's and SACD's via 6 RCA interconnects, and my AVR is in 'ext in', that means the signal is not being converted to digital by the AVR, and thus bass management is not being applied. The signal is being sent directly to the respective amplifiers. Is that right? I notice I cannot activate 'direct' (I assume because it's already in direct), and that when I choose 'pure direct', it's deactivating the video circuity of my display and AVR's front panel.

Also, at what point is the signal reconverted to digital?

 

[ronnie 1.8]

2. One of the last posts noted the terms "direct" and "pure direct". I can use "direct" with my receiver but I believe it simply bypasses tone controls and so forth - not necessarily taking the signal directly to amp (ie. still digitizes analog input). Its a Pioneer VSX-816.

From my Denon AVR3805 manual, "PURE DIRECT mode - In this mode, the music is played with an extremely high level of sound quality. When this mode is set, all the video-related circuits are turned off so that music signals can be reproduced with high quality. When an analog mode is selected, the digital processing circuitry is also turned off to achieve analog sound with even higher purity."

As others have said, Denon manuals could not be more confusing.

 

[Seth=L]

1. Do I get full resolution using this player when playing my DVD-As in stereo?
It am playing them with my toslink connect (no HDMI receiver yet) but I'm not sure if I am getting the full benefit.

I could be mistaken, but I believe the only way you can get 192/24 2 channel LPCM from the DVD audio short of HDMI is the stereo RCA outputs supplied on the DVD player. Over SPDIF, I think you get a max of 96/24 2 channel PCM.

So when I play my DVDA's and SACD's via 6 RCA interconnects, and my AVR is in 'ext in', that means the signal is not being converted to digital by the AVR, and thus bass management is not being applied. The signal is being sent directly to the respective amplifiers. Is that right? I notice I cannot activate 'direct' (I assume because it's already in direct), and that when I choose 'pure direct', it's deactivating the video circuity of my display and AVR's front panel.

The 6 channel extension input is always direct. The Bass management, level adjustments, size, x-over and any other settings are not used because those controls work digitally. (the signal would need to be digitized in order for those settings to be enabled) You must rely on any Bass management features the player offers to adjust the sound (limited functions on many DVD-Audio players)

Also, at what point is the signal reconverted to digital?

What are you refering to exactly here?

 

[ronnie 1.8]

What is happening if I want to listen to a DVD in DD 5.1 or DTS 5.1 via my player's 5.1 ch out? In my Denon AVR3805, once 'ext in' is selected, the input signals connected to the FL, FR, C, SL, SR, SBL, and SBR channels of the 'ext in' jacks are output directly to the front (left and right), center, surround (left and right) and surround back (left and right) speaker systems as well as the pre-out jacks without passing through the surround circuitry. I'm trying to undestand what is happening vs carrying the DD 5.1 or DTS 5.1 signal from my player via my coax digital audio?

 

[ronnie 1.8]

What are you refering to exactly here?

I am under the impression that a signal starts as digital, and must be change to analog for amplification by either the player, or the receiver. I then thought the signal must be converted again to digital before being output by the speakers?

 

[timetohunt]

From my Denon AVR3805 manual, "PURE DIRECT mode - In this mode, the music is played with an extremely high level of sound quality. When this mode is set, all the video-related circuits are turned off so that music signals can be reproduced with high quality. When an analog mode is selected, the digital processing circuitry is also turned off to achieve analog sound with even higher purity."

As others have said, Denon manuals could not be more confusing.

Its no wonder why folks don't strive for better high resolution music formats given the general difficulty in being able to understand and use them. I'm not necessarily speaking for audiofiles - I have a friend who is an absolute music fiend and must have 20k in CDs and untold volumes of free live downloads that he burned (lossy) to CDs. Just the other day we had talked and I mentioned DVD-A, SACD, and HDCD. He never heard of any of them. But the guy follows live music and collects like you would not believe. I don't know - now with my new enthusiasm, maybe we'll both put it all together. And now I'm starting to get interested in vinyl again. I'm in trouble.

 

[MDS]

What is happening if I want to listen to a DVD in DD 5.1 or DTS 5.1 via my player's 5.1 ch out? I'm trying to undestand what is happening vs carrying the DD 5.1 or DTS 5.1 signal from my player via my coax digital audio?

When using the 5.1 outs of the player, the digital data is read off the disc, decoded to individual channels, and converted to analog (same as with 2 channel outputs with the player set to PCM instead of bitstream except that the 5.1 stream also has to be downmixed to 2 channels.). On most receivers, no bass management is applied to the 5.1 inputs - the analog signal is passed straight through to the amplifiers.

I am under the impression that a signal starts as digital, and must be change to analog for amplification by either the player, or the receiver. I then thought the signal must be converted again to digital before being output by the speakers?

1. If using digital connection, the bits are read off the disc and transported to the receiver. The receiver decodes the stream and converts it to analog. The analog signal is amplified and sent to the speakers.

2. If using analog connections, the player must be set to PCM which tells the player to do the decoding and conversion to analog. The receiver gets the analog signal, performs digital to analog conversion on it so it can apply bass management, and then converts it back to analog so it can be amplified.

In the case of 'direct' or 'pure direct' modes, there is no A/D done by the receiver (and thus no bass management) - the analog signal the receiver gets is sent straight to the amplifiers without any processing. While the marketing blurbs always refer to direct as 'the best possible sound quality' it is not necessarily so. It implies that converting the analog to digital for further processing will somehow degrade the sound so providing a direct mode allows you to bypass the conversion.

 

[Seth=L]

You have got this a little mixed up, but I will set the story straight.

The player reads the disc by using the laser to emit light on the disc. Light is reflected back and is interpreted as "0's" and "1's". This is digital. If a digital output is used on the player(SPDIF or HDMI) it remains digital to the receiver. If you use the analog outputs (6 channel) it is analog leaving the player (decoded from digital inside the player to a usable signal that analog inputs on the receiver can use). Since the receiver's 6 channel input is analog full-time it will never be digitized after it leaves the player because the DAC's in the player have done their job already. Amplification is analog in must receivers. Some hybrid switching amps are partially digital, but must be analog at final output, because all speakers work on analog principles.

If you use the stereo output from the player and connect it to a modern receiver it will convert it to digital inside the receiver (even after the Digital to analog converters changed it to analog inside the player) to allow post processing such as Dolby Pro Logic II, because Pro Logic II is digitally rendered unlike conventional Dolby Pro Logic. Bass management also works in the digital realm on current receivers and other functions like level calibration, auto-setups, and speaker distances.

So and overview-

DVD output digital (SPDIF, HDMI)- remains digital untill receiver converts it to analog for amplifier use.

DVD output 6 channel-Stays analog once it leaves the player

DVD Analog 2 channel-converted to analog in the player, then back to digital in the receiver (unless "direct" is activated) and again converts it to analog for amplification.

Hope I explained that well enough.

Oh, I see MDS beat me to the punch.........Damn!

 

[ronnie 1.8]

When using the 5.1 outs of the player, the digital data is read off the disc, decoded to individual channels, and converted to analog (same as with 2 channel outputs with the player set to PCM instead of bitstream except that the 5.1 stream also has to be downmixed to 2 channels.). On most receivers, no bass management is applied to the 5.1 inputs - the analog signal is passed straight through to the amplifiers.

So, the example of 5.1 ch SACD, once audio is converted to analog by the player, and then received by the AVR for amplification, it is sent to the speakers as analog? It is never again converted to digital?

Let me ask my other question another way, on my DVD3930CI player, what is the difference listening to a DVD's DD 5.1 via coax digital audio, or via 5.1 ch cables using my AVR's 'ext in'? I know via 5.1 ch, my player is converting to analog, and via coax digital audio, my AVR is converting to analog. Is the full bit rate and resolution maintained either way? What are the differences once the info reaches the speakers?

 

[timetohunt]

When using the 5.1 outs of the player, the digital data is read off the disc, decoded to individual channels, and converted to analog (same as with 2 channel outputs with the player set to PCM instead of bitstream except that the 5.1 stream also has to be downmixed to 2 channels.). On most receivers, no bass management is applied to the 5.1 inputs - the analog signal is passed straight through to the amplifiers.


1. If using digital connection, the bits are read off the disc and transported to the receiver. The receiver decodes the stream and converts it to analog. The analog signal is amplified and sent to the speakers.

2. If using analog connections, the player must be set to PCM which tells the player to do the decoding and conversion to analog. The receiver gets the analog signal, performs digital to analog conversion on it so it can apply bass management, and then converts it back to analog so it can be amplified.

In the case of 'direct' or 'pure direct' modes, there is no A/D done by the receiver (and thus no bass management) - the analog signal the receiver gets is sent straight to the amplifiers without any processing. While the marketing blurbs always refer to direct as 'the best possible sound quality' it is not necessarily so. It implies that converting the analog to digital for further processing will somehow degrade the sound so providing a direct mode allows you to bypass the conversion.

OK then, if I get a CD PLAYER (just a CD player) just to do the work of my Red Book or HDCD CDs, and I still want to use a receiver. What is the prefered settings (PCM, Bitstream), and the prefered connections? Making sure the subwoofer still intact as well (is that what you mean by bass management)?.

 

[ronnie 1.8]

You have got this a little mixed up, but I will set the story straight.
Hope I explained that well enough.

Oh, I see MDS beat me to the punch.........Damn!

Yeah, I get things a little mixed up here and there. Just read MDS' response. Let me read yours...

 

[ronnie 1.8]

You have got this a little mixed up, but I will set the story straight.

The player reads the disc by using the laser to emit light on the disc. Light is reflected back and is interpreted as "0's" and "1's". This is digital. If a digital output is used on the player(SPDIF or HDMI) it remains digital to the receiver. If you use the analog outputs (6 channel) it is analog leaving the player (decoded from digital inside the player to a usable signal that analog inputs on the receiver can use). Since the receiver's 6 channel input is analog full-time it will never be digitized after it leaves the player because the DAC's in the player have done their job already. Amplification is analog in must receivers. Some hybrid switching amps are partially digital, but must be analog at final output, because all speakers work on analog principles.

If you use the stereo output from the player and connect it to a modern receiver it will convert it to digital inside the receiver (even after the Digital to analog converters changed it to analog inside the player) to allow post processing such as Dolby Pro Logic II, because Pro Logic II is digitally rendered unlike conventional Dolby Pro Logic. Bass management also works in the digital realm on current receivers and other functions like level calibration, auto-setups, and speaker distances.

So and overview-

DVD output digital (SPDIF, HDMI)- remains digital untill receiver converts it to analog for amplifier use.

DVD output 6 channel-Stays analog once it leaves the player

DVD Analog 2 channel-converted to analog in the player, then back to digital in the receiver (unless "direct" is activated) and again converts it to analog for amplification.

Hope I explained that well enough.

Oh, I see MDS beat me to the punch.........Damn!

Very helpful, Seth. Great. Can't believe (yes, I guess I can) I am still learning basic principles!!

 

[Seth=L]

So, the example of 5.1 ch SACD, once audio is converted to analog by the player, and then received by the AVR for amplification, it is sent to the speakers as analog? It is never again converted to digital?

Let me ask my other question another way, on my DVD3930CI player, what is the difference listening to a DVD's DD 5.1 via coax digital audio, or via 5.1 ch cables using my AVR's 'ext in'? I know via 5.1 ch, my player is converting to analog, and via coax digital audio, my AVR is converting to analog. Is the full bit rate and resolution maintained either way? What are the differences once the info reaches the speakers?

Correct.

Concerning the Coax vs. 5.1 analog outputs-

You are correct about what occurs, but which is better could depend on what is being done. If you are watching a movie you would probably want to use coaxial or HDMI. If you were listening to DVD-Audio or SACD you should use 5.1 outputs or HDMI. Coax (SPDIF) will not carry high-resolution multi-channel LPCM. (copyright BS)

Very helpful, Seth. Great. Can't believe (yes, I guess I can) I am still learning basic principles!!

No problem.

 

[ronnie 1.8]

Correct.Concerning the Coax vs. 5.1 analog outputs-

You are correct about what occurs, but which is better could depend on what is being done. If you are watching a movie you would probably want to use coaxial or HDMI. If you were listening to DVD-Audio or SACD you should use 5.1 outputs or HDMI. Coax (SPDIF) will not carry high-resolution multi-channel LPCM. (copyright BS)

Right, I would always use 5.1 ch when playing DVDA/SACD, but what I'm wondering is, what does the coax digital audio provide that the 5.1 ch 'direct' does not? I may be able to just remove that coax digital cable. I know one difference would be processing would occur in the AVR vs the player. But the 3930CI has excellent bass management. Just wondering what is keeping that extra noodle in my bowl of spaghetti!

 

[ronnie 1.8]

For example, in my 3930CI player, I've chosen the "digital output" setting as "normal", which is bitstream. In this setting, DVD-video's with Dolby Digital or DTS are output as Dolby Digital bitstream or DTS bitstream. Bitstream are signals that have been compressed and converted to digital.

So choosing my player's 5.1 ch output, is the player converting Dolby Digital bitstream to analog, rather than Dolby Digital bitstream reaching my AVR to be converted to analog? If this is correct, it seems, all other elements being equal, that listening to DVD-video's via the 5.1 ch output would produce relatively higher quality sound, even if on paper.

 

[Seth=L]

If you acheive better home theater performance use 5.1 analog outputs then go ahead and use that. If you have a speaker setup beyond 5.1 you will need the receiver to decode the surround back channels, and this requires SPDIF or HDMI. Too bad your receiver doesn't have HDMI.