The Marantz "Cinema Series" "2022-2023" AV Pre-Launch Thread

F

Focus SE

Junior Audioholic
This is a general questioning about internal power distribution within an AVR and because I own A own a cinema 60 I'm asking here. I am not trying to make any changes in my system. I am only looking to have a general understanding of the control and flow of power of these types of AVR's, regardless of the manufacturer.
Basically, I am using the AVR as a processor. Because I am using an external amp none of the current four channels driven nor the active sub are pulling power from the AVR. The Cinema 60 is rated at 125W at 8ohms. (their marketing says into "ALL" channels. In a Q&A they clarified it is not simultaneously with all channels driven). When going through the original set up menus, it requests that you indicate large or small speakers when assigning FL and FR. (I am assuming that is for the purposes of allocating power and or room correction.)

As a general rule, does the circuitry manage and limit the amount of allocated power to specific channels even if the internal AVR computer is told they are not being used?
Because in my situation I am using the pre-outs, does that leave the full 125W of power to drive the remaining channels, if added later?

Again, I fully understand that I will never be short of power in my current set up and I don't need to worry.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
This is a general questioning about internal power distribution within an AVR and because I own A own a cinema 60 I'm asking here. I am not trying to make any changes in my system. I am only looking to have a general understanding of the control and flow of power of these types of AVR's, regardless of the manufacturer.
Basically, I am using the AVR as a processor. Because I am using an external amp none of the current four channels driven nor the active sub are pulling power from the AVR. The Cinema 60 is rated at 125W at 8ohms. (their marketing says into "ALL" channels. In a Q&A they clarified it is not simultaneously with all channels driven). When going through the original set up menus, it requests that you indicate large or small speakers when assigning FL and FR. (I am assuming that is for the purposes of allocating power and or room correction.)

As a general rule, does the circuitry manage and limit the amount of allocated power to specific channels even if the internal AVR computer is told they are not being used?
Because in my situation I am using the pre-outs, does that leave the full 125W of power to drive the remaining channels, if added later?

Again, I fully understand that I will never be short of power in my current set up and I don't need to worry.
The Cinema 60 is rated 100 W 8 ohms, 10-20000 Hz 0.08% THD, not 125 W.

AVRs or amps don't "allocate" power. The 100 W per channel is just what it can output safely if you connect an 8 ohm resistor load at the speaker binding posts,

If you don't connect anything to the binding posts, then the AVR's power amps obvious don't have to output "power", but will just consume a small amount of energy in the bias circuitry because the power rail is still connected to the power supply.

The Cinema 60 may (please read the manual in order to know for sure) have a preamp mode, if so, use it to conserve even more energy, and improve performance slightly.
 
D

dlaloum

Audioholic Chief
This is a general questioning about internal power distribution within an AVR and because I own A own a cinema 60 I'm asking here. I am not trying to make any changes in my system. I am only looking to have a general understanding of the control and flow of power of these types of AVR's, regardless of the manufacturer.
Basically, I am using the AVR as a processor. Because I am using an external amp none of the current four channels driven nor the active sub are pulling power from the AVR. The Cinema 60 is rated at 125W at 8ohms. (their marketing says into "ALL" channels. In a Q&A they clarified it is not simultaneously with all channels driven). When going through the original set up menus, it requests that you indicate large or small speakers when assigning FL and FR. (I am assuming that is for the purposes of allocating power and or room correction.)

As a general rule, does the circuitry manage and limit the amount of allocated power to specific channels even if the internal AVR computer is told they are not being used?
Because in my situation I am using the pre-outs, does that leave the full 125W of power to drive the remaining channels, if added later?

Again, I fully understand that I will never be short of power in my current set up and I don't need to worry.
The power supplies don't work that way ... they can provide a certain voltage/current, and that is supplied to all the amplified channels on a shared power line....

Think of it as a fat water pipe, with pipes then going from it to a series of taps (speaker outputs).

If you turn on the first tap (front L/R) to maximum, there may not be enough water coming down the main feeder pipe (from the power supply) to be able to run the other taps at the level of output you want.
If you run the taps at a more constrained level, you may find that all the taps can have your desired output to each tap...

Having said that - the front channels L/C/R typically require a lot of water (in this analogy), whereas the surround and height channels, typically require only a relative "trickle" - and being a dynamic environment, the demand on your "water supply" is highly variable....

Your transformer acts as the connection to the mains (Grid), and you have an additional water tank after your transformer, which can respond "instantly" to demands for more water from the taps... but once it is empty, then the amount of water supplied to the taps is limited by the transformer.

large and small speaker settings relate not to power, but to the crossover settings / bass - small speakers have limited bass, and therefore are set to crossover at your crossover setting frequency (most commonly 80Hz - but adjustable on most AVR's) - Large speakers are "full range" - so in theory, cover some or all of the subwoofer frequencies... typically they can go down to 30Hz, some can go down lower.
The relationship between large/small and power is highly variable, but, the bass frequencies are often the major power hog in the system, so in my previous analogy - the bass requires a LOT of water... hence setting speakers to Small will provide more reserves for the speakers, but it then has to be balanced with appropriate powered subs to fill in the frequencies the speakers aren't covering (and as the subs have their own power supplies - that load has been removed from the speakers and amps/AVR's).

A key thing most people miss, is that unless you are talking about huge spaces and very high SPL's, the actual power requirements are much much lower than most people think... issues more commonly relate to current rather than power, and low impedances in the speakers (which then require high current, and may cause instability in the amps, as the feedback loops used to control distortion are often unstable into very low impedance loads, causing them to generate distortion rather than eliminate it!)

As an example - in my large open living space (lounge, dining, kitchen, cathedral ceiling) with inefficient speakers (86db/wm) - my measured typical listening level is under 75db (at MLP) - and typically remains under 4W (!) @ 8ohm (8W@4ohm, 16W@2ohm)... during maximal peaks, I have never seen my setup cross the 16W@8ohm threshold (32W@4ohm, 64W@2ohm).

However, my AVR was unable to provide optimal sound quality into my main speakers, probably due to the 1.6ohm minimum impedance... Feeding the main front L&R speakers with an external power amp, freed up enough current from the power supply, for everything to settle down and sound the way it should.

On previous AVR's I have owned (which had much, much larger and heavier transformers, and claimed to have "high current capabilities" ) - this was not an issue.

I run all the surround and height channels (5.1.4 setup) from the AVR directly - and even though it is a weeny 10kg AVR (weight usually will tell you how big the power supply is, unless it is a switching PSU) - with the external power amps driving the front L/C/R speakers, the entire setup gets the "atlas treatment"!

So yeah I would not hesitate to recommend running the surrounds and heights from the AVR, while running the Fronts off an external amp - just make sure the external amp has enough current for the impedance of the speakers...
 
F

Focus SE

Junior Audioholic
The power supplies don't work that way ... they can provide a certain voltage/current, and that is supplied to all the amplified channels on a shared power line....

Think of it as a fat water pipe, with pipes then going from it to a series of taps (speaker outputs).

If you turn on the first tap (front L/R) to maximum, there may not be enough water coming down the main feeder pipe (from the power supply) to be able to run the other taps at the level of output you want.
If you run the taps at a more constrained level, you may find that all the taps can have your desired output to each tap...

Having said that - the front channels L/C/R typically require a lot of water (in this analogy), whereas the surround and height channels, typically require only a relative "trickle" - and being a dynamic environment, the demand on your "water supply" is highly variable....

Your transformer acts as the connection to the mains (Grid), and you have an additional water tank after your transformer, which can respond "instantly" to demands for more water from the taps... but once it is empty, then the amount of water supplied to the taps is limited by the transformer.

large and small speaker settings relate not to power, but to the crossover settings / bass - small speakers have limited bass, and therefore are set to crossover at your crossover setting frequency (most commonly 80Hz - but adjustable on most AVR's) - Large speakers are "full range" - so in theory, cover some or all of the subwoofer frequencies... typically they can go down to 30Hz, some can go down lower.
The relationship between large/small and power is highly variable, but, the bass frequencies are often the major power hog in the system, so in my previous analogy - the bass requires a LOT of water... hence setting speakers to Small will provide more reserves for the speakers, but it then has to be balanced with appropriate powered subs to fill in the frequencies the speakers aren't covering (and as the subs have their own power supplies - that load has been removed from the speakers and amps/AVR's).

A key thing most people miss, is that unless you are talking about huge spaces and very high SPL's, the actual power requirements are much much lower than most people think... issues more commonly relate to current rather than power, and low impedances in the speakers (which then require high current, and may cause instability in the amps, as the feedback loops used to control distortion are often unstable into very low impedance loads, causing them to generate distortion rather than eliminate it!)

As an example - in my large open living space (lounge, dining, kitchen, cathedral ceiling) with inefficient speakers (86db/wm) - my measured typical listening level is under 75db (at MLP) - and typically remains under 4W (!) @ 8ohm (8W@4ohm, 16W@2ohm)... during maximal peaks, I have never seen my setup cross the 16W@8ohm threshold (32W@4ohm, 64W@2ohm).

However, my AVR was unable to provide optimal sound quality into my main speakers, probably due to the 1.6ohm minimum impedance... Feeding the main front L&R speakers with an external power amp, freed up enough current from the power supply, for everything to settle down and sound the way it should.

On previous AVR's I have owned (which had much, much larger and heavier transformers, and claimed to have "high current capabilities" ) - this was not an issue.

I run all the surround and height channels (5.1.4 setup) from the AVR directly - and even though it is a weeny 10kg AVR (weight usually will tell you how big the power supply is, unless it is a switching PSU) - with the external power amps driving the front L/C/R speakers, the entire setup gets the "atlas treatment"!

So yeah I would not hesitate to recommend running the surrounds and heights from the AVR, while running the Fronts off an external amp - just make sure the external amp has enough current for the impedance of the speakers...
Both your an Pengs replies make sense. I guess using your water analogy I was thinking that the AVR's internal amp may have a water saver type feature to the terminals using resistors but when you pointed out the speaker draws it makes sense resisting that could be bad for the speaker.
Thank you
 
F

Focus SE

Junior Audioholic
The Cinema 60 is rated 100 W 8 ohms, 10-20000 Hz 0.08% THD, not 125 W.

AVRs or amps don't "allocate" power. The 100 W per channel is just what it can output safely if you connect an 8 ohm resistor load at the speaker binding posts,

If you don't connect anything to the binding posts, then the AVR's power amps obvious don't have to output "power", but will just consume a small amount of energy in the bias circuitry because the power rail is still connected to the power supply.

The Cinema 60 may (please read the manual in order to know for sure) have a preamp mode, if so, use it to conserve even more energy, and improve performance slightly.
I will for sure give the pre amp mode a look in the manual. No promises, last time I looked at marantz I grabbed the wattage of the cinema 40
Thank you
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
Marantz has unveiled its new CINEMA Series 2 AV receivers, featuring upgraded 32-bit DAC technology, expanded Dirac Live room correction, improved HEOS streaming, and enhanced gaming support. Discover what's new, which models received the biggest upgrades, and how the new lineup compares to the outgoing CINEMA Series.

Marantz-Cinema2AVR.jpg


Read: Marantz Cinema Series 2 AV Receivers Overview
 
A

Ace Deprave

Audioholic Intern
Marantz has unveiled its new CINEMA Series 2 AV receivers, featuring upgraded 32-bit DAC technology, expanded Dirac Live room correction, improved HEOS streaming, and enhanced gaming support. Discover what's new, which models received the biggest upgrades, and how the new lineup compares to the outgoing CINEMA Series.

View attachment 80044

Read: Marantz Cinema Series 2 AV Receivers Overview
I wonder how long it will be before Series 2 of the Cinema 30 and 40 come out.
 
E

EBN

Audioholic
Marantz has unveiled its new CINEMA Series 2 AV receivers, featuring upgraded 32-bit DAC technology, expanded Dirac Live room correction, improved HEOS streaming, and enhanced gaming support. Discover what's new, which models received the biggest upgrades, and how the new lineup compares to the outgoing CINEMA Series.

View attachment 80044

Read: Marantz Cinema Series 2 AV Receivers Overview
Gene, will you be measuring the Cinema 50 S2 or Cinema 60 S2? Say yes! :)


I wonder how long it will be before Series 2 of the Cinema 30 and 40 come out.
Not much has changed so hopefully they will continue longer. Would want to see bigger changes next time for Japanese variants. Perhaps with HDMI 2.2 board and class-d amplification as Marantz is already using them on the PAs. Also deal with Dirac so that you get the full bandwidth correction out of box like in Onkyo. Prices are getting so high and very little changes. Hopefully Yamaha will shock us next year. ;)
 
J

JuniorInAZ

Audiophyte
I gotta tell ya….I am SO over high-end AVRs. I had 2 Pioneers and 1 Marantz and not one lasted over 2 years without needing a repair. And once they need repairing, it’s a never ending cycle. And then there’s the challenge of finding a factory certified repair station; which is a joke.

There’s nothing worse than spending $2,000 - $3,000 dollars and having it crap out. My last high end AVR purchase was a Marantz SR8001.It lasted almost 2 years before channels starting crapping out.

I used It on and off for a few years. Now it’s in its original box waiting to be donated.
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
I gotta tell ya….I am SO over high-end AVRs. I had 2 Pioneers and 1 Marantz and not one lasted over 2 years without needing a repair. And once they need repairing, it’s a never ending cycle. And then there’s the challenge of finding a factory certified repair station; which is a joke.

There’s nothing worse than spending $2,000 - $3,000 dollars and having it crap out. My last high end AVR purchase was a Marantz SR8001.It lasted almost 2 years before channels starting crapping out.

I used It on and off for a few years. Now it’s in its original box waiting to be donated.
are you properly ventilating your AVRs? I've never had an AVR just die on me like that. I've owned Marantz/Denon/Yamaha AVRs for years until I sold them in perfect working order.
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
are you properly ventilating your AVRs? I've never had an AVR just die on me like that. I've owned Marantz/Denon/Yamaha AVRs for years until I sold them in perfect working order.
To this I would add that my first Marantz, an SR6012, had to be sent out twice for warranty service: first time the tech could not replicate the issue and returned it unrepaired. On the second trip, she figured it out and replaced the digital board.

It worked well until I switched it for an AV20 last year. Now it’s waiting in the wings as emergency backup.

Before that I had a cheap Onkyo HTIB that lasted well over 10 yrs before tapping out. This one was in a cubby for 3-4 yrs before it died and I do think its demise was heat related. Probably would have died sooner if the space were tight, but it had lots of room in the cabinet where we had it and always had doors open when it was in use.
 
J

JuniorInAZ

Audiophyte
are you properly ventilating your AVRs? I've never had an AVR just die on me like that. I've owned Marantz/Denon/Yamaha AVRs for years until I sold them in perfect working order.
Hi Gene…..

The two Pioneer AVRs were in an open-faced built-in shelving unit. The sides and back were enclosed. There was at least 16 inches of clearance on the top of the unit, 3-4 inches clearance on either side and about 2 inches in back. Yes, these AVRs cranked out a lot of heat. I then raised it up on some wood blocks to get more air circulation underneath. I even started moving the AVRs away from the back wall towards the front cabinet edge. No good.

For the Marantz, I invested in a dual fan component air cooler (that sits on top of the unit) to help circulate air and draw heat out of it. That helped. It extended the life of the Marantz, but it too started to fail as well. That’s when I gave up on AVRs.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
Hi Gene…..

The two Pioneer AVRs were in an open-faced built-in shelving unit. The sides and back were enclosed. There was at least 16 inches of clearance on the top of the unit, 3-4 inches clearance on either side and about 2 inches in back. Yes, these AVRs cranked out a lot of heat. I then raised it up on some wood blocks to get more air circulation underneath. I even started moving the AVRs away from the back wall towards the front cabinet edge. No good.

For the Marantz, I invested in a dual fan component air cooler (that sits on top of the unit) to help circulate air and draw heat out of it. That helped. It extended the life of the Marantz, but it too started to fail as well. That’s when I gave up on AVRs.
I have to say, that I have had pretty good luck with Marantz AVPs, except the 7705 and 7706. The 7705 failed at around five years and no parts. The 7706 failed in about a month, warranty repair and now demoted to the two channel family room system.

Now, my Marantz 7701 that I have had for 14 years is giving trouble in the three channel great room system. I suppose you could say that is fair enough. Anyhow I have an AV 34 coming any day now. I hope tomorrow. I like to install and forget. Install well, and give the units good protection and hope for long life. One thing I would say, is that there are far too many units around with channels galore. Most rooms are not suitable for that approach, and we be far better served with better built 3.1 or 3.2 systems. But those darn marketers are H-bent on trying to sell a boat load of speakers, of whic far too many designs are not actually much good. We would be far better served catering for less channels and a much higher build quality.

I agree with you, there is a lot wrong with the current state of affairs. Anyone for a sound bar?

I bought and AV 10, and so far I'm delighted with it. Build quality is beyond reproach and I would say comparable to REVOX and Quad quality I have had for years. I would say the AV 10 is the first Home theater pre amp I have owned that is of comparable quality to what I have become accustomed to over many years.

I tend to agree with you, that the build quality of AVRs and AVPs over the last 20 years or so, has been a disgrace.
 
J

JuniorInAZ

Audiophyte
Funny you should mention soundbars. I haven’t given up on surround sound and migrated away from AVRs to an early version of a Nakamichi soundbar w/wireless sub and 2 surrounds wired to the sub. It actually worked pretty well as a surround sound system (I had to pull speaker wire through the attic to rear subs).

We moved to another home and left the Nakamichi at the old home. For the “new” home I invested in a SONOS system; Arc Ultra sound bar, Sub 4 subwoofer and dual ERA300 rear/surround speakers. Except for power cords (including the ERA300s) the whole thing is wireless (I was lucky I could tie into outlets and switches that had constant power) and mounted recessed outlets up my the ERA300s.

Any way, I just finished mounting the ERA300s on the walls about 7 feet up and started “tuning” the system using the SONOS phone app. It sounds fantastic; but I’m still playing with the room tuning using different audio formats as reference for the best audio performance. I was warned by other SONOS owners that this process can take some time to get “right”….to my ears any way. Played both Dolby ATMOS and DTS encoded movies. I need to find a ATMOS encoded movie that has some good “height” audio. But as of now, both sound great. I need to try some older discs that are 5.1 encoded and see how they sound.

And that as they say….is that.
 
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