Audio Research amps

DrMorbius

DrMorbius

Audioholic Intern
Hi, just wondered if anyone had or have any experience with both Audio Research VS60 and I50? I’m looking to narrow down the differences between the two models and am looking what pretty much what everyone wants - wide and deep soundstage with crisp crystal clear vocals and wondered which one of these outperforms over the other.
thanks!
Steve
 
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lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Why would the amp have anything to do with the soundstage or vocal reproduction? They're just amps....
 
DrMorbius

DrMorbius

Audioholic Intern
They are both tube amps, which with my speakers at 105db sensitivity mold the sound to different parameters.
 
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ski2xblack

ski2xblack

Audioholic Samurai
Those amps, while using old tech, are top notch, engineered as well as any class ab tube amps out there.

I sincerely doubt you could pick one from the other by ear. Heck, you would be hard pressed to pick them out compared to a ss amp. Well, maybe-their output impedance will be slightly higher than a typical ss amp.

Another way a tube amp will sound different is if it's overdriven, which you will never do with such sensitive speakers. It sounds like you have KHorns or similar.

So, yeah, they should definitely have crystal clear vocals, but they'll have no effect on the soundstage, nor will they provide chocolatey mids or any other of that audiophool claptrap. They're just good amps.
 
m. zillch

m. zillch

Enthusiast
Tubes have a limited life. They wear out. Buying a used amp using tubes is like buying a used car that has a broken odometer: You have no idea how much wear and tear has really been put on it so it's a crap shoot. Frankly I'd ignore any claims it was, say, "only played for a couple of hours by a little old lady on Sundays" and instead buy the newer technology, solid state. Besides better durability they also typically, as a class, have better sound quality.
 
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TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
They are both tube amps, which with my speakers at 105db sensitivity mold the sound to different parameters.
For Heaven's sake don't fall for that tube amp nonsense. With the best solid state amps, that have a very low output impedance you can choose any amp you want. Tube amps have output transformers and so they have a significant output impedance and so they will tend to have their FR follow the output impedance curve of the speaker it is connected to. That is bad and yes, tube amps will be affected by the speakers they are connected to.

But it gets worse. In the heyday of tube amps speakers were generally 16 ohms. and so the output transformer resistance of the tube amps was a much lower percentage of the prevailing speakers.

However, solid state amps are essentially current amplifying devices and don't like to produce the high voltages that 16 ohm speakers would require. That would cause arcing across the PNP and NPN junctions in output transistors, which would punch a hole in the semiconductor material and destroy the device.

So 8 ohm and actually 4 ohm loads are the order of the day in this era. Actually if you look at speaker impedance curves, I would say more speakers than not actually dip to four ohms or less. That is my main beef against receivers, that are not four ohm rated, as you can't get a power transformer or power transistors of the required size stuffed into a receiver box. That is why you have to be gentle with receiver volume settings.

So my strong advice is to forget tube amps, get a good solid state amp, and then you can pick the speaker you like best and not have to worry.

The bottom line is that, whatever the talking heads say, even the most costly tube amps are inferior and less fit for purpose than good solid state amps.

That is the truth. So banish all this audiophoolery someone has filled your brain with.
 
DrMorbius

DrMorbius

Audioholic Intern
I have 5 restored HH Scott tube amps that I have been using for 12 to 15 years now. My friend who has a D’agastino $22,000 solid state amp that is selling after he heard my Scott 296 tube amp. He is buying the Scott 296 so I, to replace it am asking about something new like the Audio Research. I’m also Intrigued by the Black Ice F22 amp also. My Klipschorns are so sensitive that I can lower the output of the tubes with my multimeter from 0.05 volts to 0.04 volts which brings the output down from 48 wpc to 40 and still peel the paint off the walls and make your ears bleed at only setting the volume halfway. By lowering the voltage to the tubes they last a very long time, like 10 to 12 years for the 296 and 8 to 10 years for my model 299C. Not bragging, it’s just the truth.
 
ski2xblack

ski2xblack

Audioholic Samurai
Yes, Zilch is correct. I should have caveated my comment ",,,as long as they're fully functional (including tube life)..."

With speakers so sensitive, and if you want something that will reveal every subtle detail however deeply buried in the mix (thus letting through everything the source recording has to offer, "better soundstage"), I would suggest something like a Benchmark AHB1. Amost unmeasurable noise, great for uber-high-sensitivity speakers like yours.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
I have 5 restored HH Scott tube amps that I have been using for 12 to 15 years now. My friend who has a D’agastino $22,000 solid state amp that is selling after he heard my Scott 296 tube amp. He is buying the Scott 296 so I, to replace it am asking about something new like the Audio Research. I’m also Intrigued by the Black Ice F22 amp also. My Klipschorns are so sensitive that I can lower the output of the tubes with my multimeter from 0.05 volts to 0.04 volts which brings the output down from 48 wpc to 40 and still peel the paint off the walls and make your ears bleed at only setting the volume halfway. By lowering the voltage to the tubes they last a very long time, like 10 to 12 years for the 296 and 8 to 10 years for my model 299C. Not bragging, it’s just the truth.
Yes, but it is a pointless exercise
 
DrMorbius

DrMorbius

Audioholic Intern
Not pointless if you want the best audio experience………..unless you’ve never listened to a tube amplifier or only a Chinese tube amp!
 
m. zillch

m. zillch

Enthusiast
Not pointless if you want the best audio experience………..unless you’ve never listened to a tube amplifier or only a Chinese tube amp!
When it comes to home audio amps, is your ideal goal like mine? To faithfully reproduce the amp's input signal so accurately to the ear it differs from it exclusively in one way only: its magnitude (volume level)? [Also known as providing "complete 100% transparency".] Or is your goal to get a signal that has been altered in some manner you deem beneficial?
 
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ski2xblack

ski2xblack

Audioholic Samurai
It's a rabbit hole we can't stop you from going down, and it would be hypocritical to level harsh accusations your way. Been there, done that myself. I never had KHorns, but did have 'Scalas and other lesser Klipsch. At one time I had the Scalas fully active and time aligned, using all SET power on the squakers/tweeters, ss for the bass bins. Yeah, it was a bit ridiculous, but I sure had fun doing it. Sounded pretty good to me. I think I have been cured from the madness since then.

If you liked the results with the old Scotts, you might not like the ARC amps as much. The ARC are simply more well engineered overall, and won't provide as much tube coloration as the Scott.

Given the KHorns sensitivity and your proclivity to go down the rabbit hole, you could take a walk on the wild side and build the aptly named "Little Sweetie" SET amp designed by guy who goes by "Tube Fanatic" on the Klipsch and DIYaudio forums. I did, really like it. And it's inexpensive (full bom about $300). Pointless exercise? Prolly. But kinda fun too.
 
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m. zillch

m. zillch

Enthusiast
Google's AI overview on the correct abbreviations:

"There are two distinct high-end audio companies with very similar names: Acoustic Research and Audio Research
. While "AR" is the official abbreviation for Acoustic Research, it is not used for Audio Research in order to avoid confusion.

Acoustic Research (AR)
  • Abbreviation: AR
  • Specialty: Loudspeakers.
  • History: Founded in 1954, Acoustic Research was a prominent manufacturer known for its high-fidelity speakers. The company's models were typically designated with the "AR" abbreviation, such as the AR-3 and AR-3a loudspeakers.
Audio Research Corporation (ARC)
  • Abbreviation: ARC or sometimes simply Audio Research, but not AR.
  • Specialty: High-end vacuum tube audio equipment, such as preamplifiers and amplifiers.
  • History: Founded in 1970, Audio Research was a pioneer in advancing high-end audio reproduction, particularly with its re-introduction of vacuum tube technology. The company's full name is Audio Research Corporation, hence the "ARC" abbreviation."
 
T

TankTop5

Audioholic Samurai
It's a rabbit hole we can't stop you from going down, and it would be hypocritical to level harsh accusations your way. Been there, done that myself. I never had KHorns, but did have 'Scalas and other lesser Klipsch. At one time I had the Scalas fully active and time aligned, using all SET power on the squakers/tweeters, ss for the bass bins. Yeah, it was a bit ridiculous, but I sure had fun doing it. Sounded pretty good to me. I think I have been cured from the madness since then.

If you liked the results with the old Scotts, you might not like the ARC amps as much. The ARC are simply more well engineered overall, and won't provide as much tube coloration as the Scott.

Given the KHorns sensitivity and your proclivity to go down the rabbit hole, you could take a walk on the wild side and build the aptly named "Little Sweetie" SET amp designed by guy who goes by "Tube Fanatic" on the Klipsch and DIYaudio forums. I did, really like it. And it's inexpensive (full bom about $300). Pointless exercise? Prolly. But kinda fun too.
Much kinder response than most here. When I move into a bigger place I want to play around with tubes and high efficiency speakers just for fun. My ears probably aren’t good enough to enjoy the even order distortion to know if I like it but it’s just a hobby.
 

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