New roof solar system (many questions)

BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
Has anyone done it?
What are your suggestions?
Any gottchas, pitfalls, good brands, bad brands (etc)?
Any experience you could share would be welcome.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
Has anyone done it?
What are your suggestions?
Any gottchas, pitfalls, good brands, bad brands (etc)?
Any experience you could share would be welcome.
I have a thread on my build out. “What did I build this for?
That thread has a lot of information. I am just off to Milwaukee right now. So can answer questions later.
 
BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
Thanks, thought the first few pages are filler, and I marked a couple of your posts as informative, but I still have more generic questions, as I'm clearly much earlier in this process than you.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
I have a solar system since 2012 that I installed myself with help of a local outfit who was willing to do the permitting design and submission.
In 2019 I got Tesla to install 2 batteries that was online in May 2020.
You can PM me if you want.
Don't rent or if you have to finance it yourself. Not sure you will be online before end of year as tax credits may be gone with the EV car credit, not sure.
 

Attachments

TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
Thanks, thought the first few pages are filler, and I marked a couple of your posts as informative, but I still have more generic questions, as I'm clearly much earlier in this process than you.
I will give you the important details in a couple of days, after I get back to Eagan. I am certain I can help you make the best decision for you. If it is going to be a go, we have to move fast. If you don't have a good south facing roof unobstructed by trees, then it is a non starter.
 
Speedskater

Speedskater

Audioholic General
The installations from one US brand are a known source of interference.
 
D

dlaloum

Senior Audioholic
I will give you the important details in a couple of days, after I get back to Eagan. I am certain I can help you make the best decision for you. If it is going to be a go, we have to move fast. If you don't have a good south facing roof unobstructed by trees, then it is a non starter.
It can depend - I like my East/West setup - as it means I have solar power from earlier in the morning to later in the afternoon/evening - but yes I have lower overall output... the balance being that I make more use of what I generate.

I also have a small number of panels facing north (the antipodean equivalent of your south)

In summer, the battery fills up, and extends my solar power through to around 10pm typically

Right now, it mostly sits idle... but Spring is coming - and I have noted signs of battery charging...
 
T

TankTop5

Audioholic Samurai
The first place you need to start is contacting your power company to find out regulations, subsidies etc. it varies a lot from state to state and here in Colorado it varies from every power company.

I’m a roofing contractor and looked into solar, too much regulation and permitting variables for me to deal with so I sun it out.

Also DO NOT RENT OR LEASE as your homeowners insurance will not cover the panels and if something happens to the panels, the company you’re renting or leasing from still wants their money. It’s also almost always a huge rip off or scam. If you don’t have the cash, the best way to finance solar is through your bank, using a home equity line of credit or a construction loan.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
... It’s also almost always a huge rip off or scam. If you don’t have the cash, the best way to finance solar is through your bank, using a home equity line of credit or a construction loan.
Well, it might be a rip-off but not a scam as the panels are installed and working, most likely a known brand, not brand x. ;) :D
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
...

I also have a small number of panels facing north (the antipodean equivalent of your south)

...
A good friend of mine decided to place panels on the north side for visual (outweighs generation) from the south sides where the main entry is. But they are tilted some amount above horizontal, so he gets a decent amount of energy. If it was flat on the roof, then it would be terrible.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
Thanks, thought the first few pages are filler, and I marked a couple of your posts as informative, but I still have more generic questions, as I'm clearly much earlier in this process than you.
So, this is all a fairly steep learning curve. As in all things there is shoddy work and bad advice abounding.

I am going to tell you again straight up, that if you don't have a good south facing roof unobstructed to the sun's rays, then forget it right there.

These East/West facing roof systems will never pay off. I know there a lot done and these marginal systems installed, but they should not be. Ethical companies will not sell you those.

Now, the first thing to understand is the NEC rules. The maximum power that the panels can deliver CAN NOT exceed 20% of the rating of your panel and electrical service. If you want to go higher then you have to instal a higher capacity electrical service, and may well have to pay for the utility to increase their infrastructure also. This makes it not worth it. So kept my original service.

The reason is that if you used the maximum draw your panel is rated at, and the panels are at maximum allowed then your service is actually handling 20% more power than spec. The NEC have granted that much 'wiggle room'. So I have a 200 amp service and so my max solar production can be no higher than 7.5 KW. So I have 20 panels that could max out at 7.6 KW, but that is within the what is allowed, but adding another panel would not be.

They will make you bring your service up to NEC 24, which essentially means SPD 1 surge protection at entry of your service to your home, and SPD-2 at all electrical panels.

Now I advise knowing your local electrical codes, and you will need to pull a building permit. Also contact your electrical service provider for any standards and codes they may enforce. In particular they will have questions about the phase locked loop systems involved to synchronize with their service. I did have trouble making our power company understand how my system achieved this, which surprised me. My first contact was in the pig dribble ignorant category. But once I got to talk to someone with more than one functional neuron and half a synapse, we got on swimmingly, and they were very helpful. The local electrical inspector was good enough to pay me a visit early in my planning stage. He told me he passes very few at the first inspection and two and three inspections is in the realms of the norm for him.

So I had mine installed by Blue Raven solar. After a little initial friction, a very good working relationship developed with their engineers.

Now you do need to stay involved and supervise a robust and neat installation. I stopped mine twice. By the third time they understood it was going to be my way, or the highway.

Now, these systems are actually quite simple. The panels are installed on the roof, and make sure you have a safe design. Also make sure your roof trusses are rated for the extra load. I still have a 100% load factor left after installation, but I went overboard with the truss design, as I wanted Florida hurricane spec.

Now each panel has it own inverter and a phase locked loop. Down below is the combiner, which synchronizes your system to the electrical service, and all the panel inverters synchronize to that.

The there is a fireman's switch so they can shut the system down. Your utility will need to install a meter that keeps track of what you take from them and what you sell back to the utility.

Now in the event of a power cut, the combiner shuts the system down, as they don't want downed lines going live from your system. This is why standby generators must have an automatic transfer switch to disconnect you from your utility in the event of a power cut.

Now make sure you have a really good ground. If it does not meet spec. then you will need a new one. I really went over the top with mine, when I built the house, so it was fine.

Now one important point. The grounding of the system, and especially the panels, must be well done. A big problem has been dissimilar metals causing galvanic corrosion resulting in high resistance grounds and fires over time. So watch out for that.

I did have issue getting the installation really tidy, like specifying pull elbows rather then ugly bent steel. This actually speeded things up, as it makes pulling wires quicker and easier Failure to adhere to this spec of mine, was the cause of one of the stops I called. If you have a good outfit, then they will in the end be happy, One of the senior engineers wrote my a nice eMail to say they are using my photographs in their teachings and instructions now.

I am glad to say we passed both electrical and building inspections first time. The Inspection from Dakota Electric was the most rigorous of all, which is as it should be. A the end they placed their sticker and turned the system on, and it has stayed on since with no issues.

I have no had any buzzes due to this system on my audio systems, except for those Marantz were responsible for.

Now, I am hoping that this system will replace 70% to 75% of our electrical usage. The big user is AC. Our unit while running used 7.5 KW, which is max panel production in a good noonday sun.

Last month we had a bill of $125 as we have had a really humid heat wave. I have been in credit two months and had minimal bills the other months. Last month's bill would have been over $500 without the solar panels. The panels have produced 8.1 megawatt hours of electricity so far this year. I am hoping for around 12 megawatt hours by years end. Last year we consumed 16 megawatt hours. I reckon we should make another 4 megawatt hours.

Their program helps you keep track on your phone, and you can check that all panels are producing, and you would see if a panel had failed right away.

So, that is what I know right now. Unfortunately you have to be careful as inappropriate installations and unrealistic goals abound.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
A good friend of mine decided to place panels on the north side for visual (outweighs generation) from the south sides where the main entry is. But they are tilted some amount above horizontal, so he gets a decent amount of energy. If it was flat on the roof, then it would be terrible.
That is not allowed here. They have to be flat to the roof. We get far too many high winds here and it would trap snow.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
That is not allowed here. They have to be flat to the roof. We get far too many high winds here and it would trap snow.
I guess we are lucky here in Monterey. Last snow, if you call it snow was too long ago to remember. ;)
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
You will want a southern exposure and a tilt angle roughly between 30-45 degrees.

Good panels: Trina, LG, Hyperion. Look for panels with built in optimizers. Roof mount won't benefit much from bi-facial panels.

Battery Chemistry: Lithium Iron Phosphate

I like Growatt inverters.

Put 3000 (10 panels) Watt on my parents cottage and did it with local Facebook Market place for the Trina panels / inverter and new on the LiFePo4 battery. Did 200AMP hour for them at 48V across 2 batteries. Make sure you array the batteries correctly to ensure even charge/dis-charge wear. Basically wire batteries in series and terminal connect top bottom legs so the circuit is evenly distributed. Batteries we purchased have a BMS (Battery Management System) in addition to the intelligence in the inverter/charge controller.

Been generating for two years no issues.
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
Unfortunately Solar and other Renewables are headed in the wrong direction. It started with the Biden admin and gotten or going to get way worse with Trump. The biggest was local utilities no longer buying your excess at the bulk sell rate.

Couple that with incentives being gutted and it's a huge disappointment.

Helped a buddy put in 16,000 watts for 100%+ dependency and just made it under the wire for production buy back and all possible incentives. He contracted out the panel electrical with auto-disconnect so he doesn't feed back to the grid in an outage and kill a line man.

My advice is size your system to take care of you in it's most productive months given your local and lean on your provider in the lean months.
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
I guess we are lucky here in Monterey. Last snow, if you call it snow was too long ago to remember. ;)
Solar is a good option in locals were your energy is really expensive. In locals like mine it's comparatively cheap but the hard and installations costs are the same. I don't know what permitting costs differences are. That's about the only outlier.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
Solar is a good option in locals were your energy is really expensive. In locals like mine it's comparatively cheap but the hard and installations costs are the same. I don't know what permitting costs differences are. That's about the only outlier.
I don't think permit was that expensive.
Yes, cost or energy makes a difference but also having batteries, can be a great advantage. While power outage is not that frequent, getting a generator out and making it connect, especially when it is raining cats and dogs
it could be a deal maker especially for longer outages. Getting too old for all that.
Now, I may not even notice the outage if it wasn't a text from power company.

One time I was able to help my good neighbor run his sump pump with a 100ft extension cord.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
Solar is a good option in locals were your energy is really expensive. In locals like mine it's comparatively cheap but the hard and installations costs are the same. I don't know what permitting costs differences are. That's about the only outlier.
We just had to pull a building permit which was very cheap. Batteries are not a good idea here, they are expensive and codes here will not allow you to put them in the house or attached garage because of the fire hazard. So you have to build a detached building for them. That would not be possible here as I am right up to the permissible building lines. However we have a fixed 20 KVA generator for the power cuts. It starts within seconds and shuts down after power is restored.

I think the process here was very straightforward. Once you know the regs it was not a difficult process. It helped that I am an inveterate DIYer and used to construction projects. So, I think it really helps to have a clue how to go about it. The electrical inspector regaled me with stories of the most appalling F-ups he had seen from some installers.
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
We just had to pull a building permit which was very cheap. Batteries are not a good idea here, they are expensive and codes here will not allow you to put them in the house or attached garage because of the fire hazard. So you have to build a detached building for them. That would not be possible here as I am right up to the permissible building lines. However we have a fixed 20 KVA generator for the power cuts. It starts within seconds and shuts down after power is restored.

I think the process here was very straightforward. Once you know the regs it was not a difficult process. It helped that I am an inveterate DIYer and used to construction projects. So, I think it really helps to have a clue how to go about it. The electrical inspector regaled me with stories of the most appalling F-ups he had seen from some installers.
When I helped do the 16KW array we put the battery bank in a shed on slab with HVAC. Our only requirement was that we had to have an electrician put in the transfer switch.

I've heard stories of some shops not wanting to panel tie if the didn't do the entire installation. Luckily my friend is in the trades so that wasn't an issue.

Did two inverters and they communicate over RS485 so they push 240v out and the app is really slick.
 
D

dlaloum

Senior Audioholic
We just had to pull a building permit which was very cheap. Batteries are not a good idea here, they are expensive and codes here will not allow you to put them in the house or attached garage because of the fire hazard. So you have to build a detached building for them. That would not be possible here as I am right up to the permissible building lines. However we have a fixed 20 KVA generator for the power cuts. It starts within seconds and shuts down after power is restored.

I think the process here was very straightforward. Once you know the regs it was not a difficult process. It helped that I am an inveterate DIYer and used to construction projects. So, I think it really helps to have a clue how to go about it. The electrical inspector regaled me with stories of the most appalling F-ups he had seen from some installers.
Battery prices are now going through a similar dramatic price reduction curve, to what PV went through over the last 20 years...

What was uneconomical in ROI terms, has become feasible today - much of it driven by the massive investments in battery R&D driven by the move towards EV's...

I currently run a 10kwh battery setup.

If I can add a few more panels to my setup, I could double the battery size, and achieve ROI by both using all of my own generated Solar electricity, but also by load shifting, charging when the utility charges the lowest rates, and using the stored energy during peak pricing....

This is of course very dependent on what your utility regime is like (varies from country to country! - and from utility to utility)

My current 6kw PV with 10kwh battery is well gauged, and tends to maximise battery usage during sunny weather - I don't charge the battery from the grid, as it makes no economical sense - the exception being when there is the possibility of a power outage - then I pre-charge the battery, and the house can run for 24hrs on the battery, as long as I don't need heating/cooling. Turning on the heat pumps tends to drain the battery within a few hours.
 
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