AVR + External Amp VS Seperates

[Trebdp83]

The x3800H and Cinema 50 will process 11.1 channels, but not 13.1 for those wanting a 7.1.6 speaker configuration.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The electronics has the least affect on the sound. So, spending $4K+ on it doesn't make much sense. You could get a Marantz Cinema 50 or Denon 3800 for around $1500. At least then you'll get the better version of Audyssey.

This is exactly the reason why I always say, "Each person has to do what's BEST for himself".

For some people, it's the X3800. For some it's the X4800. For some it's the X6800. For some it's the Marantz AV10 or AV20.

If I want a LEXUS LX600, then that's what I'm getting for MYSELF dammit! Not a Toyota or BMW or whatever.

 

[TLS Guy]

Some have, but for sure not all. In another thread, to be unnamed, you've wrote (to paraphrase) that a configuration error could be a cause of the "optimistic" claims of the Marantz AV 10. Me? The dude got a new toy and won't admit to any misconfiguration, and his previous AVP are now classified as "junk" after extolling their virtue for years as not AVR.

I did not mis configure anything. I set them all up correctly. I never had a major problem with my AVPs until the 7705 and 7706. I firmly believe the reasons, are suspect components by counterfeit components, and interior layout. These last units were basically AVRs without amps. The Atmos versions do create a little more heat, although case temperatures did not go over 95F. But from videos I have watched of disassembly on YouTube, the interior design is not good. with circuits one above the other and hard to get to. From the behaviour of the failures, I have a strong suspicion that some components were overheating due to bad interior design. So now I have made sure that I have a unit that has nothing in common with an AVR. It also seems that in order to get a spacious layout these Atmos units have to be large. This AV 10 is way bigger then any receiver I have ever seen. And yes, it does sound better. Only time will tell if it proves reliable over time, but I every expectation of a long life.

Two units that had background you can hear in a quiet room with failure at 5 years and one at three months. I have no hesitation in giving a junk classifications to these units. So I can in no way recommend them. That is based on experience.

So, if an AVP that is the size of most receivers has premature failure, then I would imagine adding a bunch of power amps will only add to the misery.

Yes, at the moment I am very happy with my AV 10, which is by far the best AVP I have owned. Only time will tell if it has long legs.

Now I am going to start a thread on AV and the barriers of interior design.

 

[MysticLint]

The electronics has the least affect on the sound. So, spending $4K+ on it doesn't make much sense. You could get a Marantz Cinema 50 or Denon 3800 for around $1500. At least then you'll get the better version of Audyssey.

Agreed. The only reason I’m hesitant to go with a Denon x4800h is because it lacks 13 channel processing. I’m planning on setting up for a 7.1.4 Auro 3D setup but suspect I will want to go to a 7.1.6.

I guess it comes down:

1. Do separates really make that much of a difference? If not I’ll probably just get a 6800h and 3-5 channel amp.
2. If so, what 13 channel pre/pro would you recommend with Auro 3D processing and 4k video output to pair with an external amp?

 

[TLS Guy]

Agreed. The only reason I’m hesitant to go with a Denon x4800h is because it lacks 13 channel processing. I’m planning on setting up for a 7.1.4 Auro 3D setup but suspect I will want to go to a 7.1.6.

I guess it comes down:

1. Do separates really make that much of a difference? If not I’ll probably just get a 6800h and 3-5 channel amp.
2. If so, what 13 channel pre/pro would you recommend with Auro 3D processing and 4k video output to pair with an external amp?

You have expensive tastes. I have had very good luck with pre/pros until the last two Atmos ones. I had a Marantz 7705 fail at five years and I was lucky it did not take out some speakers. Its replacement 7706 failed at three months. So, that soured me on AVPs based on receivers. So I have recently installed a Marantz AV 10 and I am very happy with it. It is made in Japan and is beautifully crafted and sounds really good. If you go the route you are intending, it will be very expensive. I do not recommend driving more than three front channels off one power supply, so you would need the three channel amp and then I suppose for surround duty a five channel amp might cut it.

Depending on your room, you will have to think very hard if it is worth it. But if you really intend to join this "club" then the AV 10 is a good foundation. That has been around, a while and I can't find reports of premature failures. If you intend to go down that path, then I think the AV 10 is the best insurance against premature failure. I like to stay out of trouble and I am still annoyed those last two AVPs landed me in "muddy weeds."

 

[Trebdp83]

I wouldn't throw the AV 20 out of bed. It can process 13 channels. But, it does come in over the stated budget and then there are the 13 channels that still need to be powered by external amps. There are no guarantees and any new component can s#%t the bed. I do not believe an X6800H with an external 3-5 channel amp will disappoint and the coin saved can be spent on two more subwoofers.

 

[TLS Guy]

I wouldn't throw the AV 20 out of bed. It can process 13 channels. But, it does come in over the stated budget and then there are the 13 channels that still need to be powered by external amps. There are no guarantees and any new component can s#%t the bed. I do not believe an X6800H with an external 3-5 channel amp will disappoint and the coin saved can be spent on two more subwoofers.

I agree with that. Unless you have a huge room, putting in the height speakers to Atmos specs, gets two of the surrounds too close to the mains, and risks comb filtering. I like to keep my speaker spacing wide enough not to run that risk.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I wouldn't throw the AV 20 out of bed.

it’s in your bed? Sicko.

 

[lovinthehd]

it’s in your bed? Sicko.

Reminds me of bike folk

 

[Trebdp83]

Come on, it has a f#%kin' glory hole, sorry, port hole in it! Apologies to @MysticLint. I'm not well.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Come on, it has a f#%kin' glory hole, sorry, port hole in it! Apologies to @MysticLint. I'm not well.

Well then I’m in good company!

 

[Trebdp83]

Best forum ever!

 

[dlaloum]

I think you are right but the OP is asking about the 6800 vs 8805. Based on price the 3800 is virtually unbeatable.

Yes well, as an alternate solution, using an X3800 with an external amp for L/R, might well provide a very very similar experience to the X6800...

If looking for a value alternative, picking the more economical set of electronics, and budgeting for an external amp, may well result in some substantial savings. - As long as the X3800 has all the features needed/desired.

I would seriously consider a single external stereo amp + X3800, as an alternative to the X6800. (I would not try the X3800 on its own, driving what may be difficult main speakers)

 

[PENG]

Yes well, as an alternate solution, using an X3800 with an external amp for L/R, might well provide a very very similar experience to the X6800...

If looking for a value alternative, picking the more economical set of electronics, and budgeting for an external amp, may well result in some substantial savings. - As long as the X3800 has all the features needed/desired.

I would seriously consider a single external stereo amp + X3800, as an alternative to the X6800. (I would not try the X3800 on its own, driving what may be difficult main speakers)

Agreed, but I think once someone has his/her mind thinking about the better specs, especially those keen of bench measurements, are prone to buyer's remorse, 2nd thought etc., if they ended up going for something less expensive but have lower specs/measurements. So, paying a couple thousand dollars more for the 6800 may keep him happier longer.

 

[Trebdp83]

@MysticLint mentioned a 7.1.6 speaker configuration down the road and a $4,000 budget. In the new Denon models, 13.4 channel processing starts with the X6800H. In the new Marantz models, 13.4 channel processing starts with the Cinema 30. Both units can power 11 channels.

@MysticLint mentioned getting the X6800H for a discounted $3,000. The Cinema 30 will be more expensive and the AV 20 and AV 10 will be much more expensive and require external amps for all channels.

Now, for those who want their AURO-3D cake and eat their Dolby Atmos too, The AV 10 supports 17.1 channel speaker connections for a 13.1(7.1.6) channel AURO-3D configuration and a 15.1(9.1.6) channel Dolby Atmos configuration and will switch the output speakers accordingly based on the audio format.

When wanting both an AURO-3D and Dolby Atmos speaker configurations, the AURO-3D configuration will be compromised as SHL and SHR speakers will be replaced with RHL and RHR speakers. Dolby Atmos Top(Ceiling) speakers will be limited to the TML and TMR speakers. The Front and Rear Height speakers will be FHL, FHR, RHL and RHR.

Marantz AV 10:

This is a pisser for those wanting matching sets. The AV 10 supports 17.1 connections but the Amp 10 powers 16 channels. Those wanting 13.1 channels using the AV 20 are also f#%cked as the Amp 20 powers 12 channels.

Now, for those wanting 13.1(7.1.6) for both AURO-3D and Dolby Atmos, the AV 20 supports 15.1 speaker connections. The same Height speaker limitations from the AV 10 would apply here.

Marantz AV 20:

In case anybody is wondering, while the Denon AVR-X6800H and Marantz Cinema 30 do process 13.4 channels, they do not support 15.1 connections like the AV 20 or 17.1 connections like the AV 10 and AURO-3D is compromised more still when configuring for both it and Dolby Atmos.

Finally, for those wanting separate AURO-3D and Dolby Atmos 13.1(7.1.6) speaker configurations and a pair of new Marantz components, the AV 20(15.4 channel processing) and Amp 10(16 channels of power) will get it done… for a hefty price.

 

[olddog]

Keep in mind if you go to amp separates that the Denon can output about 2v during max output before distortion starts to rise so you want a amp that can reach full output at something around 1.6v for synergy and clean sound.

 

[PENG]

Keep in mind if you go to amp separates that the Denon can output about 2v during max output before distortion starts to rise so you want a amp that can reach full output at something around 1.6v for synergy and clean sound.

Not really, more like at least 3-3.5 V for distortions + noise to get higher than say, 0.005% - 0.008% or a little higher than 4 V at clipping.

That’s based on test results of the predecessor, the 6700 and the Cinema 30 and I am being conservative, so on the test bench I do expect it to do better than the numbers I am using.

 

[PENG]

As Gene pointed out before, Denon (Marantz as well) AVRs typically should have high enough preout V for most power amps, that’s probably true since 2016-17, basically a solved issue.

 

[Trell]

As Gene pointed out before, Denon (Marantz as well) AVRs typically should have high enough preout V for most power amps, that’s probably true since 2016-17, basically a solved issue.

So is DAC IC and it's implementation, but even this site has succumbed on that.

 

[PENG]

So is DAC IC and it's implementation, but even this site has succumbed on that.

They did get that one solved when they started using the AK4458 in around 2016. After the factory fire (2020 iirc), by the spring of 2021, they switched to the PCM5102A and that’s when some of us started complaining. The AVR-X6800H and C30 got that issue solved again. Even the PCM IC should still be audibly transparent but people got spoiled by the lower THD+N of the units before the AKM factory fire.