Really Strange Fault

TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
This is a really strange fault that caused me a lot of grief.

The timing was unfortunate as it added to the confusion, but it turned out to be an uncanny coincidence.

My solar system went live on December 4. At the same time my AV room developed a hum/buzz on all channels. I searched high and low for a ground loop and never found one.
The strange thing was that the hum was on all channels, was unaffected by volume setting and did not go away activating the mute on the 7705. So I thought it may have been something to do with the solar panels. An Internet search confirmed that as a possibility. So I ordered a power cable for my AVP with and RF blocker, and it made no difference.

So then I got curious to find out if you could hear it on headphones. I could not. This is where the story gets strange. When I removed the headphones the hum was gone.
Despite this I was suspicious there was trouble afoot and there was. So I phoned Scott of Hi-Fi sound and talked to him. Like me he was of the opinion that problems would return. He gave me a deal on a Marantz 7706 I could not refuse. It was significantly below any Internet price. I picked it up just before Christmas, but was too busy to install it, as we had a lot going on. Well at the end of last week, I got at an enormous speaker busting thump from all channels and the hum returned but with a vengeance. A soft reset made the hum quieter, and the headphone trick worked again. However on checking the system the output to the left surround back had totally failed. Luckily no speakers were damaged. But if I did not select very robust drivers, there probably would have been.

So yesterday my eldest son came over to help me install the 7706 in the rack.



So, I spent last night and a good deal of today making the connections and doing the set up. I carefully kept note of all the settings, as I wanted it to sound the same as before.

I am glad to report that, at this time the 7706 is working perfectly.

The question becomes of what to do with the 7705. It has been in use for 5 years and 3 months. It has had intensive use.

The options are to send it for recycling or have it repaired by an authorized service center and sell it on. This is by far the most serious problem I have encountered with any of the six AVPs I have owned. The first, a Rotel was sold on, because it had no HDMI. The others are still working. My Marantz 8003 has been boxed in storage for quite a few years. It was working fine when I took it out of service. That unit had a failed voltage regulator in less then a month of service and was quickly repaired under warranty and there were no subsequent issues.

AVPs and AVRs are the very heart of AV systems and just about the whole system communicates with them. Installation and set up is a huge task.

 
Last edited:
Alex2507

Alex2507

Audioholic Slumlord
The options are to send it for recycling or have it repaired by an authorized service center and sell it on.
I would have a hard time trusting that unit not to blow up my speakers. I had an amp take out a ribbon from one of my speakers with a loud static burst of an intermittent nature. Once bit, right?
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
I would have a hard time trusting that unit not to blow up my speakers. I had an amp take out a ribbon from one of my speakers with a loud static burst of an intermittent nature. Once bit, right?
That is my feeling as well. If I send it for repair, you don't know if they we really find the root cause of this. Even if I sent it for repair, I do have qualms about putting up for sale. I would be very unhappy if the unit blew up a buyers speakers or worse. So I am leaning to the recycling option. So that unit has not done well in terms of longevity.
The issue holds that we are all one tiny solid state junction or cap away from disaster out of thousands. So it is a game of "Russian Roulette" for all our systems.

I will say that setting up these AV systems is very complicated and time consuming. This was after I had recorded all the settings from the 7705. You can see why there is so much consumer resistance to good AV. I can't imagine any of our close friends completing the task. I doubt all my children and spouses could. I think three out of the four probably, and one highly doubtful.

When I did that service call out to Grand Forks a while back for the Quad power amp service, the owner would not have had a chance of setting up that small AVR I had her order. Just getting her how to use it was major endeavor.

This really is a massive limitation for people to enjoy this wonderful technology. It really is. I never imagined in my lifetime, that you could reproduce concerts from around the world with such stunning realism. But that luxury is reserved for very, very few. It takes experience, cash, and the ability to carry out total design which includes the design of the room in the equation. So it does come down to total design. So I don't think the concert halls will empty out any time soon, despite the ever increasing prices. Tickets for two at the opera and now at least the cost of a decent AVR.
 
Mikado463

Mikado463

Audioholic Spartan
Doc, you have further re-enforced my happiness with my rather simplistic 2.1 set up ............ ;)
 
T

Trebdp83

Audioholic Spartan
It happens but you are very capable of getting it all back together again. I would have been in hog heaven and made a day of it. I love rewiring it all.

I would recommend giving some of those wires a bit of slack and suggest going with just HDMI cables whenever possible to do so. I remember the nightmare of having several devices with component video cables and using the 7.1 EXT. IN.

To make your life a bit easier if the 7706 has an issue, there is this feature.

 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
It happens but you are very capable of getting it all back together again. I would have been in hog heaven and made a day of it. I love rewiring it all.

I would recommend giving some of those wires a bit of slack and suggest going with just HDMI cables whenever possible to do so. I remember the nightmare of having several devices with component video cables and using the 7.1 EXT. IN.

To make your life a bit easier if the 7706 has an issue, there is this feature.

I think I will do that when I am satisfied everything is working correctly.

All the HDMI ports are in use.

I do have one component connections, as one of my best demo discs is an a SACD with circular drumming. HDMi puts the signal on the wrong surrounds. But I don't use that pre BD disc player much.

The only analog connections I have are from the switch bus which handles all the disc and tape equipment.

Then there is the Quad FM 4. Thought sounds much better then the very lossy MP3 public radio stream over the DAW.

Then I do have a VCR for when needed that has analog audio and a composite video connection.

The DAW from the RME connects via optical and my old Marantz CD player connects via RCA coax digital. CDs are strange, some will play on certain players and not others.

Most of the wiring is to amps. There are 18 power amp channels from that unit.

The main speakers are triamped, the center bi-amped and the rear surround are biamped. The side surround and four ceiling height speaker have one amp channel each.

So for the mains, the mid and top end take a channel each via RCA. The center has one RCA connection for the main coax speaker and one balanced XLR connection to a modified Shure SR 106 for the variable BSC to the fill driver. Each bass line has an RCA connection to the amps for the lower driver, and then the upper driver has a mixer circuit the uses the right and left RCAs and the balanced XLR outs. The upper of the two bass drivers receives the sub signal plus a blended circuit via two modified Shure SR 106 crossovers for the BSC signal, this goes to a buffer amp and an adjustable circuit and mixer for the variable BSC and sub for the mains upper of the two bass drivers. The variable controls are in my rack mounted amp controller that controls the power amp turn on 27 volt relays. The variable control for the center is also in that unit and the control for the bass drivers of the rear surrounds.

The amps from the rear surround are connected from the rear surround XLRs to a two channel Crown VFX-2 variable crossover. This has been upgraded by me to more modern ICs.

This crossover is set at 180 Hz and with outputs to the Quad 909 bass amp, there is a level control in the amp controller. This crossover point is set at where the BSC needs to start and balance with the top end. The Crown high pass goes to another Quad 909. The mains are powered by three Quad 909 amps, the center by one, the side surrounds by one and the rear surrounds by two Quad 909s. The height speakers are powered by two Quad 405-2s

The variable BSC is a game changer. I and others have found the correct BSC is room and speaker location dependent, and "one size" far from fits all.

Correctly setting BSC by instruments and listening I have found is crucial to getting a proper balance of sound in the room. I should state that the surrounds although passive have a two position switch to give two levels of BSC. The heights being in the ceiling need no BSC.

When I moved rooms with the last move, the BSC settings are vastly different between the rooms. In my view most of these so called 'room correction' systems are actually reacting to variations in BSC between rooms. They don't do it as well as controlling it at the bass driver input. These programs tend to interfere with the natural listening distance effect on FR to the detriment of natural sound. So this explains why I don't use room correction and don't need it.

So the majority of the wiring is for the connections from the AVP to the active crossovers and power amps.
 
T

Trebdp83

Audioholic Spartan
It is no small task to change out an AVP in that system for sure. I am interested in the surround issue concerning SACD and HDMI. Can you elaborate on the disc and player used here?

You now have a single 40Gbps HDMI port on the new 7706 that supports 8K @60Hz/4K @120Hz. If your new PC supports as much, color and text will be noticeably improved if 4K HDR @120Hz is supported by the TV and PC. Ultra Certified HDMI cables will be necessary for the PC to AVP and AVP to TV connections.

I didn’t think going from 4K SDR @60Hz using my Mac mini M1 through my AVR to an LG C1 TV would result in much improvement of the image. I was wrong. The USB-C to HDMI adapter with special firmware gets around the Mac’s HDMI limitation and it thinks the Thunderbolt port is connected to a monitor with DisplayPort. Set to 4K HDR10 RGB 10 Bit Color @120Hz for output, the picture is amazing and text is very easy to read.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
It is no small task to change out an AVP in that system for sure. I am interested in the surround issue concerning SACD and HDMI. Can you elaborate on the disc and player used here?

You now have a single 40Gbps HDMI port on the new 7706 that supports 8K @60Hz/4K @120Hz. If your new PC supports as much, color and text will be noticeably improved if 4K HDR @120Hz is supported by the TV and PC. Ultra Certified HDMI cables will be necessary for the PC to AVP and AVP to TV connections.

I didn’t think going from 4K SDR @60Hz using my Mac mini M1 through my AVR to an LG C1 TV would result in much improvement of the image. I was wrong. The USB-C to HDMI adapter with special firmware gets around the Mac’s HDMI limitation and it thinks the Thunderbolt port is connected to a monitor with DisplayPort. Set to 4K HDR10 RGB 10 Bit Color @120Hz for output, the picture is amazing and text is very easy to read.
The disc is this SACD.



The first movement contains Laplander circular drumming. They are huge drums that play loud all round the room.

In a component connection from my Marantz DV 9600 wich has both component and HDMI outputs. HDMI puts the rear drums on the side surrounds. However to make it play correctly the rear needs to play on the back surrounds. Whilst my surrounds are competent speakers, and high spl. the are not as good as my biamped rear surrounds, which are really good and potent speakers with a low end F3 of 27 Hz, with lots of power well below F3 rolling off 12 db per octave. They are TLs with 450 watts each powering them. So the component connection allows you to plug the rear into the surround back inputs.

When you do this the drums go full force in rotation around the room. There is also a symphony orchestra up front and a chamber orchestra in the rear.

It is a disc that few system can reproduce without getting into serious trouble. The reviewer in Gramophone panned the disc for being unplayable. Well not is this room!

I don't have any 8K sources or an 8K TV. 4K is fine for me. My viewing distance is 19' with a 77" OLED LG screen.

So far the 7706 is performing fine. I have packed the 7705 up in original packing and pondering what to do with it.
 
Verdinut

Verdinut

Audioholic Spartan
I also have that SACD disc of Aho's Symphony No. 12. It's playable and sounds good on my system, an amazing recording!
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Doc, you have further re-enforced my happiness with my rather simplistic 2.1 set up ............ ;)
You are a wise man. I also have a 2.1 system in our family room. To be honest that is actually adequate for most people's AV needs. It is way better than a sound bar. Despite no center channel it has a very stable image, and speech clarity is excellent.





It is a great place to listen to music by the fire in the winter. I do that often. It has an FM radio tuner (Quad FM4) Comcast remote box, Oppo universal disc player, Chromecast, a gaming system for the grandchildren and a really nice turntable (Thorens/SME/Shure).

The speakers are outstanding performers, and fill that space without difficulty.



The bass driver is the KEF B139, one of the best bass drivers of all time. That driver is available again form Falcon Acoustics, with the same T/S parameters, but the power increased from 100 to 200 watts. The mid is one of the best ever, the Dynaudio D76 dome. Tweeter is a planar ribbon. Crossovers are at 400 Hz and 4 KHz so the dome is handling the whole speech discrimination band, and it can do it at power.

There has always been and lack of decent midrange drivers, almost all, are nothing really of the sort. The other is the ATC dome but not available to the DIY community.

Volt make a really good and powerful midrange dome available in a range of impedances. They are powerful and cover the whole speech discrimination band. They have recently become available in the US via Madisound. These are used in the acclaimed PCM TL speakers.

So it would be possible for members to build a first class speaker similar to that. Also the B139 is ideal for transmission line loading. So it now would be possible to design and build an updated version of John Wright's famous TDL transmission line speakers.

So yes, a good two channel system bests any system with more poorer speakers. So you have given up little with a good 2.1 system and more likely than not have gained.
 

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