Good Surround Mix on Road Worthy Rescues

[Squishman]

Watching the MotorTrend show Road Worthy Rescues (on streaming Discovery Plus) with Derek Bieri from Vice Grip Garage and the sound track for a ht system is always top-notch to me. Now, I just wish I could hear something in my Infinity surrounds whilst watching The Rockford Files! Either on DVD or Amazon Prime. I'd be happy with a simulated surround. But noooo! Didn't the old Pro Logic used to give you at least something in the surrounds when you are watching something 40 years old? My two newish avr's don't seem to do that. Dang it!

 

[TLS Guy]

Watching the MotorTrend show Road Worthy Rescues (on streaming Discovery Plus) with Derek Bieri from Vice Grip Garage and the sound track for a ht system is always top-notch to me. Now, I just wish I could hear something in my Infinity surrounds whilst watching The Rockford Files! Either on DVD or Amazon Prime. I'd be happy with a simulated surround. But noooo! Didn't the old Pro Logic used to give you at least something in the surrounds when you are watching something 40 years old? My two newish avr's don't seem to do that. Dang it!

All current and recent Onkyo AVRs have up mixer including the Dolby upmixer which is the best one. It is called Dolby Digital surround. Read your manual!

 

[Squishman]

All current and recent Onkyo AVRs have up mixer including the Dolby upmixer which is the best one. It is called Dolby Digital surround. Read your manual!

That's the DSP I use! Doesn't seem to do as much as the old Pro Logic to me!

 

[TLS Guy]

That's the DSP I use! Doesn't seem to do as much as the old Pro Logic to me!

That is because you listen to junk recorded by idiots. In fact the latest up mixers are excellent. They can not work unless phase relationships of the original recording are preserved. If you stick a mic in front of every instrument and mix it all down, though Heaven knows what echo devices and Eq you then all the phase relationships of the instruments and the venue are lost. So these systems like Dolby DD have no chance, because it defeats their modus operandi.

In the classical arena there is a massive trend back to minimal microphone setups so these programs can work their "magic". There has been a massive resurrection of the old Decca Tree I have noted in recent years, which seems to suit these upmixers very well.

When I do have engineers here on occasion from the 'pop/rock' domain then I run straight two channel stereo, as I know upmixers can not work.

When I used to make live recordings for radio broadcast for the local public radio station, I always employed minimal mic techniques. The Dolby upmixer works superbly with those recordings.

 

[Squishman]

They aren't idiots who were the sound engineers on Rockford. It was a show on tv in the 70's. No one in those days had any inclination to use anything but the single 4" full range driver on your average tv. So I don't understand how they were idiots.
But regarding what I said about pro logic, i might be remembering it wrong what setting I was using 20 years ago.
But still, I have read the manual and tried every option on the Onkyo and on my Denon and I cannot get simulated, up-converted or fake surround sound with my favorite 50 year old tv show. And that bums me out a tad bit.

 

[TLS Guy]

They aren't idiots who were the sound engineers on Rockford. It was a show on tv in the 70's. No one in those days had any inclination to use anything but the single 4" full range driver on your average tv. So I don't understand how they were idiots.
But regarding what I said about pro logic, i might be remembering it wrong what setting I was using 20 years ago.
But still, I have read the manual and tried every option on the Onkyo and on my Denon and I cannot get simulated, up-converted or fake surround sound with my favorite 50 year old tv show. And that bums me out a tad bit.

Yes, they were idiots. They used to set up the musicians in isolation booths in those days, and then mix it down. I remember attending some recording sessions at a Westlake equipped studio back in the seventies. I quickly concluded they were absolute clowns. If you record like that, then the Dolby upmixer can not possible work. It defeats the whole premise of its design.

The whole design rationale to to be able to preserve and reproduce the acoustic of the recording location in your room. As far as I can tell the Dolby upmixer does that incredibly well and preserves the acoustic of the venue remarkably well. So Orchestra Hall Detroit sound very different in my room to the Royal Albert Hall or a cathedral.
I have noted the simpler the microphone technique the better it works, as you would expect.

In your case the recording was almost certainly made in a dead acoustic, likely with isolation and to add insult to injury with added artificial reverb. No decent upmixer is going to make sense of that.

 

[Trebdp83]

“The Rockford Files” episodes had mono tracks. On disc and streaming, they are presented in 2.0 but nothing was done to them and they are still essentially mono tracks. Up mixers have a hell of a time with them and they actually sound best in mono sound mode.

 

[Trell]

That is because you listen to junk recorded by idiots. In fact the latest up mixers are excellent. They can not work unless phase relationships of the original recording are preserved. If you stick a mic in front of every instrument and mix it all down, though Heaven knows what echo devices and Eq you then all the phase relationships of the instruments and the venue are lost. So these systems like Dolby DD have no chance, because it defeats their modus operandi.

In the classical arena there is a massive trend back to minimal microphone setups so these programs can work their "magic". There has been a massive resurrection of the old Decca Tree I have noted in recent years, which seems to suit these upmixers very well.

When I do have engineers here on occasion from the 'pop/rock' domain then I run straight two channel stereo, as I know upmixers can not work.

When I used to make live recordings for radio broadcast for the local public radio station, I always employed minimal mic techniques. The Dolby upmixer works superbly with those recordings.

So unless you listen to classical or jazz you're out of luck for the upmixer to work well? I do have many multi-channel SACD (mostly classical) and in my informal testing of the Dolby Surround Upmixer it does not sound better; worse actually using my 2015 model Denon AVR. My setup is 5.1 but adding a number of overhead speakers is hardly going to improve the sound.

 

[Trebdp83]

No, that is not exactly what @TLS Guy was saying but it does apply to old mono tracks being slapped on a disc or streamed as DD, DTS or PCM 2.0.

Two channel music with vocals can be up mixed quite nicely BUT the vocals will be steered to the Center Channel Speaker unless one applies Dolby Center Spread when using the Dolby Surround up mixer.

In the case of Onkyo receivers, one can use the Dolby Surround or DTS Neural:X/Virtual:X up mixers and use Onkyo’s own Vocal enhancement feature which can spread the vocals across the front stage to varying degrees. Dolby Center Spread is an ON or OFF affair that only works with the Dolby Surround up mixer.

There are exceptions to the rule and a PC or Mac configured to output multichannel PCM will behave a bit differently when two channel signals are output and up mixed.

Mono tracks disguised as Stereo can trip up the up mixers. They do for me anyway and I often just switch to the Mono sound mode in my Onkyo which outputs 1.1. The dialogue is nice and clear and a signal is sent to the subwoofer so there is a bit of rumble to the goings on and it doesn’t sound like it is being played from an old TV with a single, sad little speaker.

There are those mono 1.0 discs out there that aren’t up mixed well like certain 2.0 discs and streams that began life in mono. Dialogue can bleed out everywhere along with everything else.

 

[Trell]

Mono tracks disguised as Stereo can trip up the up mixers

And then there are Stereo tracks disguised as 5.1, like using the Netflix app in my LG OLED, as then Dolby Surround don't work at all in my Denon AVR (no surprise there, of course). Real annoying unless you sit in front of the TV watching the series. An Apple TV 4K fixed that for me.

 

[Squishman]

What about trying multi channel stereo or whatever Onkyo or Denon calls it? Just for this purpose I mean. I'm not home right now to check. Otherwise I'll try mono and see how that goes.

 

[Trebdp83]

And then there are Stereo tracks disguised as 5.1, like using the Netflix app in my LG OLED, as then Dolby Surround don't work at all in my Denon AVR (no surprise there, of course). Real annoying unless you sit in front of the TV watching the series. An Apple TV 4K fixed that for me.

What is the LG TV model? Denon model?

 

[Squishman]

Btw, a little off topic, or rather regarding the op, this is the latest from Vice Grip Garage, posted about 15 minutes ago. Looks like a good episode.

 

[Trebdp83]

What about trying multi channel stereo or whatever Onkyo or Denon calls it? Just for this purpose I mean. I'm not home right now to check. Otherwise I'll try mono and see how that goes.

All Ch Stereo mode will work.

 

[Trell]

What is the LG TV model? Denon model?

That's the LG OLED CX connected to my Denon AVR-X4200W.

 

[Trebdp83]

That's the LG OLED CX connected to my Denon AVR-X4200W.

The X4200W does not support eARC. There can be issues if eARC support is ON in the CX. Turn it OFF. Make sure the Digital Audio Output setting is set to Passthrough, not Auto. This should allow the CX’s webOS apps to bitstream lossy streaming service audio signals to the receiver and should eliminate up mixing issues. Results will vary of course.