Bi-amping Denon X1300W and Klipsch RP-280F

[Petrolhead]

I have a problem with sound quality at high volume, seems distortion or clipping starts at between 75 and 80 percent.

There is a power meter on the receiver that show high output if i set it at 80 percent and the meter quickly falls of and the sound turns bad.

I only run two channels. Will it help Bi-amping the speakers and spread the load over more channels, or will it be the same?

I don’t need that just more power, just a little. Or do I need something else to run it?

 

[everettT]

I have a problem with sound quality at high volume, seems distortion or clipping starts at between 75 and 80 percent.

There is a power meter on the receiver that show high output if i set it at 80 percent and the meter quickly falls of and the sound turns bad.

I only run two channels. Will it help Bi-amping the speakers and spread the load over more channels, or will it be the same?

I don’t need that just more power, just a little. Or do I need something else to run it?

It the same power supply, so no it won't help. Running them full range at loud volumes can cause them to distort. Add in some clipping too, depending on the content, and it's hard to pinpoint exactly which.. Can you demo those speakers with a more powerful amp?

 

[Petrolhead]

It the same power supply, so no it won't help. Running them full range at loud volumes can cause them to distort. Add in some clipping too, depending on the content, and it's hard to pinpoint exactly which.. Can you demo those speakers with a more powerful amp?

Thank you for your reply. I unfortunately can’t get access to anything like that, but what you are saying is that it could be the speakers also?

I am also running a Klipsch R115-SW.

 

[everettT]

Thank you for your reply. I unfortunately can’t get access to anything like that, but what you are saying is that it could be the speakers also?

I am also running a Klipsch R115-SW.

What do you have the crossover set to? And do you have them set to small or large?

 

[-Jim-]

According to the Specs from Klipsch these speakers are very efficient at 98dB @ 2.83V / 1m. (About one watt.) That means they don't need a much power to get really Loud.

I'm guessing that @Petrolhead is driving them too hard, and is into Clipping and may have damaged them if the duration was too long. Get a Sound Meter and see what the level is 3 feet away from the speaker just as it starts to distort. If you don't have a meter, use a free App on a Cell phone. Please advise the level you obtain and we can go from there.

 

[TLS Guy]

I have a problem with sound quality at high volume, seems distortion or clipping starts at between 75 and 80 percent.

There is a power meter on the receiver that show high output if i set it at 80 percent and the meter quickly falls of and the sound turns bad.

I only run two channels. Will it help Bi-amping the speakers and spread the load over more channels, or will it be the same?

I don’t need that just more power, just a little. Or do I need something else to run it?

My hunch is that you are overloading that horn tweeter. Crossover is 1750 still in a significant portion of the power band. I suspect if you did use more power you would blow the tweeters, and those are known for that at high power.

Klipsch speakers play pretty loud and I don't know why you would want to play them louder.

Designing a really high powered speaker for concert level is a formidable undertaking. You are not going to do it at the price level of those speakers.

 

[Petrolhead]

What do you have the crossover set to? And do you have them set to small or large?

Thank you!

Crossover for front speakers are set to 40Hz on the receiver. Sub is on LFE port and setting for that is LFE + Main. «LPF for for LFE :120HZ

Fronts are set to Large.

 

[Petrolhead]

According to the Specs from Klipsch these speakers are very efficient at 98dB @ 2.83V / 1m. (About one watt.) That means they don't need a much power to get really Loud.

I'm guessing that @Petrolhead is driving them too hard, and is into Clipping and may have damaged them if the duration was too long. Get a Sound Meter and see what the level is 3 feet away from the speaker just as it starts to distort. If you don't have a meter, use a free App on a Cell phone. Please advise the level you obtain and we can go from there.

Thank you!

I don’t think they are damaged. I am not first owner, but they play awesome. I have just gently tried pushing them and they have been klipping only for seconds.

Ok I will try that when I am home alone and report back to you.

 

[Petrolhead]

My hunch is that you are overloading that horn tweeter. Crossover is 1750 still in a significant portion of the power band. I suspect if you did use more power you would blow the tweeters, and those are known for that at high power.

Klipsch speakers play pretty loud and I don't know why you would want to play them louder.

Designing a really high powered speaker for concert level is a formidable undertaking. You are not going to do it at the price level of those speakers.

Yea you are right regarding volume, but sometimes I just want a bit of concert level. The maximum height on the ceiling in this room is about 4,5 meters or 15ft, so I might be better of with a couple RF7’s or something?

One thing I struggle to understand is why Klipsch rate the speakers at 150W, as you guys say with their sensitivity I have a hard time understanding this. This is why I first suspected my amplifier. As this is 80W per channel. Way below the speakers

 

[ski2xblack]

Speaker power ratings are not as relevant as sensitivity, and Klipsch sensitivity ratings are exaggerated by 5-6 db due to their "in room" method of rating them. Yours are probably only 92 db/w/m or so. Taking that into account, and a propensity to replicate concert volumes, you're most likely driving your Denon into hard clipping. That's a recipe for damaging the speakers.

 

[lovinthehd]

Your volume control is either the absolute or relative scale but neither are in percentages. I've not had a Denon with a power meter otoh. What's the reading on the master volume and are you using relative or absolute volume scale? It wouldn't surprise me you're maxing it out, tho. Passive bi-amping with an avr is largely a waste of wire, tho.

 

[Petrolhead]

Speaker power ratings are not as relevant as sensitivity, and Klipsch sensitivity ratings are exaggerated by 5-6 db due to their "in room" method of rating them. Yours are probably only 92 db/w/m or so. Taking that into account, and a propensity to replicate concert volumes, you're most likely driving your Denon into hard clipping. That's a recipe for damaging the speakers.

Yea this is my theory. (I could be wrong). It even seems it can deliver the output I want for a very short period of time. Before it starts. I have backed out as soon as I hear it’s beginning.

Is there a way to tell for sure what’s going on?

 

[Petrolhead]

Your volume control is either the absolute or relative scale but neither are in percentages. I've not had a Denon with a power meter otoh. What's the reading on the master volume and are you using relative or absolute volume scale? It wouldn't surprise me you're maxing it out, tho. Passive bi-amping with an avr is largely a waste of wire, tho.

Than you for your time. I just assumed it was percentage, but you are right. I checked now. The one scale I am using is 0-98, not specified units. The other one is: -79.5dB - 18dB. Problems start around 75 which is about -6dB

when adjusting volume there is a bar that display energy use, if you turn it up there is a green bar going in to a yellow section, a bit like a tachometer would. But it seems like when the amp goes hot it tries to maintain volume and starts clipping, but I am no expert.

 

[everettT]

I'd set your speakers to small and start with an 80hz crossover and see if that helps. You probably asking the speakers do more than they need to/can. 40hz is pretty low to crossover to a sub with most speakers. The only reason to run your speakers that low is if they're capable of playing 30hz or below, down 3db.

 

[lovinthehd]

Than you for your time. I just assumed it was percentage, but you are right. I checked now. The one scale I am using is 0-98, not specified units. The other one is: -79.5dB - 18dB. Problems start around 75 which is about -6dB

when adjusting volume there is a bar that display energy use, if you turn it up there is a green bar going in to a yellow section, a bit like a tachometer would. But it seems like when the amp goes hot it tries to maintain volume and starts clipping, but I am no expert.

I take that back, my 4700 does in Eco mode have an energy use thing, but never use it (and I leave eco mode off). No definition to the "energy" use so hard to know what it means. I think going to the LFE instead of LFE+Main setting is something to try.

 

[ski2xblack]

Yea this is my theory. (I could be wrong). It even seems it can deliver the output I want for a very short period of time. Before it starts. I have backed out as soon as I hear it’s beginning.

Is there a way to tell for sure what’s going on?

It's good practice to turn it down immediately if you hear audible changes. Audible changes means you're already way outside SOA, and rapidly approaching "let out the magic smoke" territory. Don't break your stuff (hopefully you haven't already). You have to reel in your "loud as a concert" expectations.

So, is it the speakers? Follow everettT's suggestion about crossover settings. That will reduce cone motion (protecting the speakers) and get a tiny bit more dynamic range, while ever so slightly easing the load on your amp. Now both of those benefits are marginal at best, so don't get your hopes up. A side bonus, it probably will be easier to blend the sub at 80hz, by virtue of sidestepping phase shift issues of the Klipsch down at 40 hz.
-Your amp still may not have the requisite power for your desired listening habits. The speakers could withstand a more powerful amp, one that's not clipping when you're blasting it.

Is it the amp? Based on what you've told us, likely so. Despite your speakers still fairly high, if exaggerated sensitivity, you must consider that power demands go up exponentially, while your Denon is only modestly powerful.

Guestimating via this callculator (I used 89db/w/m sensitivity, as your speakers real sensitivity is 92, the calculator is based on watts not volts, your speakers are 4 ohm, so minus another 3 db; 2 speakers; 12' distance, a total guess), and at the redline (60 watts...which could be optimistic if powering a full surround system) your amp can do about 98db, peak.

So lets say you could do average 89db with 10db headroom for peaks, which is enough for rock. That's reasonably loud, but not concert loud. If you crank the volume way up to attempt to get it concert loud, you're clipping the amp. If your program requires more than 10db headroom, your average levels will be forced even lower. Like previously mentioned, your expectations may have to be adjusted downward.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

I take that back, my 4700 does in Eco mode have an energy use thing, but never use it (and I leave eco mode off). No definition to the "energy" use so hard to know what it means. I think going to the LFE instead of LFE+Main setting is something to try.

Iirc, @PENG explained it very nicely. I use eco mode on my Marantz, but I also use a 250wpc amp for my mains. The main reason I do use eco, is just so it runs cooler. I think sometimes too much is made about temps. I have an older pioneer 1019 that I think would blister you if you touched it and it’s always been fine.
I also think OP should try 60-80hz set to small. I think the AVR is struggling.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Yea you are right regarding volume, but sometimes I just want a bit of concert level. The maximum height on the ceiling in this room is about 4,5 meters or 15ft, so I might be better of with a couple RF7’s or something?

One thing I struggle to understand is why Klipsch rate the speakers at 150W, as you guys say with their sensitivity I have a hard time understanding this. This is why I first suspected my amplifier. As this is 80W per channel. Way below the speakers

RF7’s would be very nice.
As said, the speakers wattage ratings aren’t that useful.
But the 80wpc on the AVR isn’t great. I demoed two different receivers in my system one time. One was 125w the other was 135w. My mains are 92db. The 10w difference between them should have made zero difference in real world playback. However. When testing various material, the one with 125w always seemed to go into some kind of compression. It didn’t sound like distortion, or clipping but it you could just tell it was running out of power. The 135w AVR only seemed to be willing to keep getting louder. Not wanting to wreck my speakers, I stopped at -3 MV with most material. A standout piece I used was Rush, “R-30” BD concert. It was very much like being there. The 125w AVR just sounded flat by the time MV reached about -15. SQ was good until then however.
Do you need more power? Hard to say. But IME more is always better than not enough.

 

[lovinthehd]

Iirc, @PENG explained it very nicely. I use eco mode on my Marantz, but I also use a 250wpc amp for my mains. The main reason I do use eco, is just so it runs cooler. I think sometimes too much is made about temps. I have an older pioneer 1019 that I think would blister you if you touched it and it’s always been fine.
I also think OP should try 60-80hz set to small. I think the AVR is struggling.

I remember some stuff about eco mode but not a lot, but it is a limitation that I just find not necessary. I've never tried to see if it runs cooler that way but I utilize a fan for the 4700 due its limited space. My old 919 basically went up in smoke tho.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

I remember some stuff about eco mode but not a lot, but it is a limitation that I just find not necessary. I've never tried to see if it runs cooler that way but I utilize a fan for the 4700 due its limited space. My old 919 basically went up in smoke tho.

Yeah. If I wasn’t using an amp I wouldn’t use eco mode and would possibly use a fan.