Danon X4700H, Arcam sa30 and 2 Subwoofers.

Trell

Trell

Audioholic Spartan
I used a ultra quiet fan with my AV preamp processors, as even those could get quiet warm and I suspect even if you add an external amp, you can probably benefit from a fan in terms of reliability and longevity.

Noctua NF-S12A ULN, Ultra Quiet Silent Fan, 3-Pin (120mm, Brown) : Amazon.ca: Electronics

noise level is only 8.6 dB, likely lower if you use the lowest voltage/speed.
I’ve Noctua fans on my Denon AVR as well, though I use the 5V PWM version along with a Noctua fan controller to adjust fan speed. Two of them powered by USB from my TV and one from my Oppo player. So when everything is off that includes the fans as well.

Silent from where I’m sitting even when there is no audio.
 
E

EBN

Audioholic
The Arcam doesn’t have HT bypass so you’re really listening to both pre amps plus the Denon doesn’t shut down the amps so you’re powering 2 amplifier sections for a second amp with about the same specs.

If you think you like the ‘sound’ of the Arcam you can download the Audessey app and EQ it to your liking.
Arcam SA30 has HT-Bypass. It`s called Processor mode and mentioned in manual. SA30 comes with Dirac Live and pretty decent power amp section, 220w / 4ohm.

 
G

Genchic

Audioholic
Why is a fan not an option, is it size, noise?

I used a ultra quiet fan with my AV preamp processors, as even those could get quiet warm and I suspect even if you add an external amp, you can probably benefit from a fan in terms of reliability and longevity.

Noctua NF-S12A ULN, Ultra Quiet Silent Fan, 3-Pin (120mm, Brown) : Amazon.ca: Electronics

noise level is only 8.6 dB, likely lower if you use the lowest voltage/speed.

Of the amps you listed, the NAD M23 will have the lowest distortion and noise, the other ones don't even come close, but still, all of them, even the Denon AVR already have distortions level that is considered below the threshold of audibility.

NAD M23 Stereo Amplifier Review | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum

You can save a ton of money with brands such as Apollon, buckeyeamp and their return policy may not be as good, while warranty should be fine because they are covered by the manufacturers, ie. Purifi, or Hypex.

I would not go with Rotel, Anthem (I own one) as those class AB amps are really on the way out, for reasons related to size, weight, heat, i.e. much poorer efficiency. So, my choice would be the NAD, if brand name, return policy is important, but you will pay twice as much, or more, for the same rated output and audio specs.
Yes. The NAD is a little more than I want to spend. In the long run I will most likely replace speakers. I misworded "not an option" I was going to say I never looked at it as an option. I might look into it. Arcam is class G. Whatever it means, I've heard them, and I realy like the sound.
 
G

Genchic

Audioholic
Arcam SA30 has HT-Bypass. It`s called Processor mode and mentioned in manual. SA30 comes with Dirac Live and pretty decent power amp section, 220w / 4ohm.

That is how I connect my Denon to Arcam SA30. I bypass the integrated and use it as an amp for L&R. The center channel is driven by Denon when I watch movies. For music streaming through Denon, I use it as preamp, direct mode, which turns off center channel. All I have left in this setup is L&R preamp and Arcam works as an amp plus 2 woofers. For turntable and CDs, I use Arcam as integrated amp and keep the Denon off. I like how it all sounds, but want to explore the denon preamp and other amp with more power. At least 200w per channel.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
That is how I connect my Denon to Arcam SA30. I bypass the integrated and use it as an amp for L&R. The center channel is driven by Denon when I watch movies. For music streaming through Denon, I use it as preamp, direct mode, which turns off center channel. All I have left in this setup is L&R preamp and Arcam works as an amp plus 2 woofers. For turntable and CDs, I use Arcam as integrated amp and keep the Denon off. I like how it all sounds, but want to explore the denon preamp and other amp with more power. At least 200w per channel.
Exercise extreme caution with claims that can only be corroborated by audio dealers & equipment makers. They stand to profit from the extra sales. Unfortunately, this also includes audio review websites & magazines who accept paid advertising from audio gear makers. Don’t forget all those readers who readily swallow that Kool Aid. It’s a myth.

In my own limited experience, an AVR performs very well for both movies and music. I've heard high-priced 2-channel preamps in action with speakers I know well. I honestly cannot hear a difference between them and AVRs when both preamps drive the same power amp. If you want extra power, a decent AVR does provide the option of adding external power amps for at least the front 2 channels. There will always be others who challenge this without any convincing supporting evidence. Until then, any such claim is a myth.
 
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Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
… I might look into it. Arcam is class G. Whatever it means, I've heard them, and I realy like the sound.
FYI, this Wikipedia page briefly explains the various amplifier classes. I'm not an electrical engineer, but this allows me to "nod my head intelligently" when those various amp classes get mentioned.
 
everettT

everettT

Audioholic Spartan
Be extremely cautious about believing things in audio such as the benefit from 2 different preamps, one for home theater & the other for 2-channel music – leading to the "need" for preamps with audio bypass. This is a myth spread by dealers & equipment makers who stand to make money from the extra sales. Unfortunately, this myth is also spread by audio snobbery proponents (many review sites & magazines who accept paid advertising from audio gear makers), plus, all their readers who readily swallow their Kool Aid.

In my own limited experience, an AV receiver performs very well for both movies or music. I've heard high-priced 2-channel only preamps in action, and I honestly cannot hear a difference. With a decent AVR, you always have the option of adding external amps for at least the front 2 channels. There will always be others who challenge this without any supporting evidence.
Agreed, two of my setups with Salk speakers are preamped by Denon AVRs and I have no issues whatsoever.
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Overlord
Be extremely cautious about believing things in audio such as the benefit from 2 different preamps, one for home theater & the other for 2-channel music – leading to the "need" for preamps with audio bypass. This is a myth spread by dealers & equipment makers who stand to make money from the extra sales. Unfortunately, this myth is also spread by audio snobbery proponents (many review sites & magazines who accept paid advertising from audio gear makers), plus, all their readers who readily swallow their Kool Aid.

In my own limited experience, an AV receiver performs very well for both movies or music. I've heard high-priced 2-channel only preamps in action, and I honestly cannot hear a difference. With a decent AVR, you always have the option of adding external amps for at least the front 2 channels. There will always be others who challenge this without any supporting evidence.
This is 100% right. It’s called FOMO(fear of missing out), and is an unfortunately powerful marketing tool.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Thank you for the advice, but fan is not an option. If I had a separate equipment room, then may be. I'm still working on the Denon tweaking. I will add an amp, I'll addition a few, and the Arcam PA240 is one of them. It has plenty of power for my application and RCA preouts, I can use for subwoofers, and I liked the sound of SA30, hopefully the PA 240 will give me the same sound. I checked Crutchfield website they only have 5 amps 200W + : Rotel RB-1582, Anthem MCA 225, NAD Master series M23, And Arcam PA240. They have 60 days return policy, I have enough time to test drive one.
There are fans you can barely hear with your ear next to them.

What would you hope to "hear" in an audiition of an amp? The idea that all those amps have distinctive "sounds" is pretty far out there....I'd simply pick on power/impedance handling myself, and 200wpc would be a minimum if going external.
 
G

Genchic

Audioholic
There are fans you can barely hear with your ear next to them.

What would you hope to "hear" in an audiition of an amp? The idea that all those amps have distinctive "sounds" is pretty far out there....I'd simply pick on power/impedance handling myself, and 200wpc would be a minimum if going external.
I'm not sure, that is why I want to audition the amp, and compare the sound to AVR, AVR + an amp. In my theory, a powerful amp should give me a clearer sound in low volume vs just my AVR. If my theory doesn't work, then, I and up with my AVR, and if it does, I'll get the Amp/Integrated amp of my liking. I think it is reasonable move to make. All the measurement, graphics, and sound correction apps are very useful tools, but at the end of the day, what we hear with our own ears matters the most.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
I'm not sure, that is why I want to audition the amp, and compare the sound to AVR, AVR + an amp. In my theory, a powerful amp should give me a clearer sound in low volume vs just my AVR. If my theory doesn't work, then, I and up with my AVR, and if it does, I'll get the Amp/Integrated amp of my liking. I think it is reasonable move to make. All the measurement, graphics, and sound correction apps are very useful tools, but at the end of the day, what we hear with our own ears matters the most.
What is not clear about the sound at low volume? The amp won't change the sound, particularly at low volumes (at least not without eq). A more powerful/capable amp could make for clearer playback at high volume. Why add another integrated amp (a receiver is basically an integrated amp)? You can fool your ears with poor comparisons, tho.

" If my theory doesn't work, then, I and up with my AVR, and if it does, I'll get the amp/integrated amp" seems to be missing something
 
G

Genchic

Audioholic
When you are in a store in their listening room and auditioning several AVRs, they all sound a little different. You choose one, bring it home and it doesn't sound even close to what you heard in the store. Why? Because your room is different. I already know, I don't like the 2 channel sound of Denon X4700H with my Focal 926. It is too late for me to return the Denon, and too late to return speakers I invested $5K into. I have to make it to work somehow. I know the Denon X4700H has an excellent preamp and a streamer for any devices using HDMI port. I auditioned Arcam SA30 as a power amp and got the sound I like with ease. If an Arcam PA240 meets or exceeds the sound quality I like, I will keep it. I have not explored the Arcam's Dirac live, may be once I get to it, it will be the game changer.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
When you are in a store in their listening room and auditioning several AVRs, they all sound a little different. You choose one, bring it home and it doesn't sound even close to what you heard in the store. Why? Because your room is different. I already know, I don't like the 2 channel sound of Denon X4700H with my Focal 926. It is too late for me to return the Denon, and too late to return speakers I invested $5K into. I have to make it to work somehow. I know the Denon X4700H has an excellent preamp and a streamer for any devices using HDMI port. I auditioned Arcam SA30 as a power amp and got the sound I like with ease. If an Arcam PA240 meets or exceeds the sound quality I like, I will keep it. I have not explored the Arcam's Dirac live, may be once I get to it, it will be the game changer.
It's most likely due to different levels/settings and that it is a sighted test. Arcam has nothing particularly magical about their electronics, its just a boutique brand. The room is a much greater factor along with your speakers than the electronics by a fair bit, true. More power otoh can be useful but that's best done with a power amp. I can't think of a bigger waste of time than auditioning anything but speakers. I find nothing wrong with my 4700 for 2ch audio in any case (or any of my four other avrs). Dirac could be useful but if using the SA30 it's limited to 2ch. Are you taking full advantage of the setup the 4700 offers via Audyssey and the editor app?
 
G

Genchic

Audioholic
It's most likely due to different levels/settings and that it is a sighted test. Arcam has nothing particularly magical about their electronics, its just a boutique brand. The room is a much greater factor along with your speakers than the electronics by a fair bit, true. More power otoh can be useful but that's best done with a power amp. I can't think of a bigger waste of time than auditioning anything but speakers. I find nothing wrong with my 4700 for 2ch audio in any case (or any of my four other avrs). Dirac could be useful but if using the SA30 it's limited to 2ch. Are you taking full advantage of the setup the 4700 offers via Audyssey and the editor app?
Well, I don't take a full advantage of 4700 at all. I'm only running 2 channels for the most part, and 3 when watching TV. Center channel helps with hearung dialogs a little better. Let's put it this way: the Denon X4700H has 9.2 channels for $2000.00, it make 9 amplifiers worth $2000 = $222.22 per amp. The Arcam sa30 cost $3300.00 for 2 channels = $1650.00 per channel. I'm getting it for $2k. A Toyota Corola is an excellent car, and it will take you from point "a" to point "b" reliably, safe and with high efficiency, however, in Lexus LS460 you will be delivered with a Joy of the ride on the top of all the benefits of Toyota Corola. If this makes sense.
 
G

Genchic

Audioholic
FYI, this Wikipedia page briefly explains the various amplifier classes. I'm not an electrical engineer, but this allows me to "nod my head intelligently" when those various amp classes get mentioned.
Thank you for the link. Based on my reading, no wonder class G, which is Arcam, sounds better in lower volume. It is the physics of sound, not my imagination.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Well, I don't take a full advantage of 4700 at all. I'm only running 2 channels for the most part, and 3 when watching TV. Center channel helps with hearung dialogs a little better. Let's put it this way: the Denon X4700H has 9.2 channels for $2000.00, it make 9 amplifiers worth $2000 = $222.22 per amp. The Arcam sa30 cost $3300.00 for 2 channels = $1650.00 per channel. I'm getting it for $2k. A Toyota Corola is an excellent car, and it will take you from point "a" to point "b" reliably, safe and with high efficiency, however, in Lexus LS460 you will be delivered with a Joy of the ride on the top of all the benefits of Toyota Corola. If this makes sense.
The cost and car analogies are odd at best.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
When you are in a store in their listening room and auditioning several AVRs, they all sound a little different. You choose one, bring it home and it doesn't sound even close to what you heard in the store. Why? Because your room is different. I already know, I don't like the 2 channel sound of Denon X4700H with my Focal 926. It is too late for me to return the Denon, and too late to return speakers I invested $5K into. I have to make it to work somehow. I know the Denon X4700H has an excellent preamp and a streamer for any devices using HDMI port. I auditioned Arcam SA30 as a power amp and got the sound I like with ease. If an Arcam PA240 meets or exceeds the sound quality I like, I will keep it. I have not explored the Arcam's Dirac live, may be once I get to it, it will be the game changer.
It has been said, and explained by experts in the field (including our respected Dr. Toole, Dr. Olive etc.) that if you perceived "sound quality" in sighted tests in which you know which device you listened to, then it doesn't matter what you think. The thing is, unless you take the time to do comparisons that follows generally accepted protocols such as to make sure you won't know which device you listen to, no one here can change your mind. If you do take the time like some of us have, then you will learn the truth. It is of course up to you to weigh the benefits of knowing the truth, or ignoring it for better reasons (I can think of at least one such benefit of ignoring blind tests). Some of us on this forum can say, been there, done that on this well design amps sound the same, or not thing lol..

In my case, just learning/knowing the truth, has saved me hard earned money, time, effort, real estate (clutter) and frustration in recent years. I used to visit many so called high end stores, listen to the sales pitch, then multiple amps that got swapping in and out, pairing with different loudspeakers etc., in search for the "better" sound quality. Now, if I am in the market for something, say an amp or dac, I would just do my research and make my choice based on specs, bench test results, and all available publications that have credible technical information; and then in the end on all else being equal basis, I would make my choice after considering the cost, aesthetic, and physical aspects such as size and weight.

You said you had your theory, but are those theory totally scientific based, on proven scientific principles, and on logical, bottleneck analysis? For example, on all else being equal basis, separates are better than integrated devices such as integrated amps and AVRs, but that's (all else being equal) based on interference between parts and components, that may or may not be a factor in the end results depending on the design and implementation of each as there are many ways to mitigate such interference that would result in noise and distortions, and such has been shown in test results many times, such as RCA unbalanced outputs did better than XLR balance outputs on the same devices such as the Marantz AV10 and Anthem AVM90, both are flagship class AVPs.

Many forum people may tell you class G, class D, class H, class A, AB, AAB all sound different, but in the end it is bench test results that tell the truth. Yes there are obviously things not measured, but if our audio experts such as Gene, Amir, John Akinson who have been doing tests on audio devices for decades know something that would affect sound quality (audibly), then would have included such tests. Also, if there are something that could not even be tested/measured, then we are out of luck anyway because in that case if a device, such as you favored Arcam amp did well in such things that have not been, and could not be measured, then how the hack did the Arcam design/engineering team managed to come up with their design that would give it such a distinct "sound", that did not show up in know scientifically based metrics such as noise, distortions, and frequency response? Perhaps it was a random process then? At least that would make sense logically speaking, but if so, then we really have to depend on luck to a large extent to make our selection and as you know it will be very difficult to make such a choice relying on our ears/brains as there are so many factors including but not limited to the speakers paired with the amps, room, placement, even our mood at the time, that all affect our perception, let alone the various cables that those demo room reps do tend to believe and would try to sell you those things would make clearly audible differences.

You analogy based on cars, is a popular on on audio forums but again, as has been pointed out by many, so I won't repeat what's been said before, is not really relevant.

Sorry about my long post, I do this because it seems to me you are open to reasonable discussion on this controversial topic and I am interested in knowing why some obviously experienced audio hobbyist who seem knowledgeable, yet still seemed so convinced amps could sound so audibly different when all the measurements on metrics known to impact on audibly different sound quality show they should at best sound subtly different when used well below their rated output capabilities in terms of voltage and current. Note: I always prefer not using "power" to avoid arguments about impedance and phase angles etc.

Please feel free to ignore this long post, won't hurt my feelings at all.
 
G

Genchic

Audioholic
It has been said, and explained by experts in the field (including our respected Dr. Toole, Dr. Olive etc.) that if you perceived "sound quality" in sighted tests in which you know which device you listened to, then it doesn't matter what you think. The thing is, unless you take the time to do comparisons that follows generally accepted protocols such as to make sure you won't know which device you listen to, no one here can change your mind. If you do take the time like some of us have, then you will learn the truth. It is of course up to you to weigh the benefits of knowing the truth, or ignoring it for better reasons (I can think of at least one such benefit of ignoring blind tests). Some of us on this forum can say, been there, done that on this well design amps sound the same, or not thing lol..

In my case, just learning/knowing the truth, has saved me hard earned money, time, effort, real estate (clutter) and frustration in recent years. I used to visit many so called high end stores, listen to the sales pitch, then multiple amps that got swapping in and out, pairing with different loudspeakers etc., in search for the "better" sound quality. Now, if I am in the market for something, say an amp or dac, I would just do my research and make my choice based on specs, bench test results, and all available publications that have credible technical information; and then in the end on all else being equal basis, I would make my choice after considering the cost, aesthetic, and physical aspects such as size and weight.

You said you had your theory, but are those theory totally scientific based, on proven scientific principles, and on logical, bottleneck analysis? For example, on all else being equal basis, separates are better than integrated devices such as integrated amps and AVRs, but that's (all else being equal) based on interference between parts and components, that may or may not be a factor in the end results depending on the design and implementation of each as there are many ways to mitigate such interference that would result in noise and distortions, and such has been shown in test results many times, such as RCA unbalanced outputs did better than XLR balance outputs on the same devices such as the Marantz AV10 and Anthem AVM90, both are flagship class AVPs.

Many forum people may tell you class G, class D, class H, class A, AB, AAB all sound different, but in the end it is bench test results that tell the truth. Yes there are obviously things not measured, but if our audio experts such as Gene, Amir, John Akinson who have been doing tests on audio devices for decades know something that would affect sound quality (audibly), then would have included such tests. Also, if there are something that could not even be tested/measured, then we are out of luck anyway because in that case if a device, such as you favored Arcam amp did well in such things that have not been, and could not be measured, then how the hack did the Arcam design/engineering team managed to come up with their design that would give it such a distinct "sound", that did not show up in know scientifically based metrics such as noise, distortions, and frequency response? Perhaps it was a random process then? At least that would make sense logically speaking, but if so, then we really have to depend on luck to a large extent to make our selection and as you know it will be very difficult to make such a choice relying on our ears/brains as there are so many factors including but not limited to the speakers paired with the amps, room, placement, even our mood at the time, that all affect our perception, let alone the various cables that those demo room reps do tend to believe and would try to sell you those things would make clearly audible differences.

You analogy based on cars, is a popular on on audio forums but again, as has been pointed out by many, so I won't repeat what's been said before, is not really relevant.

Sorry about my long post, I do this because it seems to me you are open to reasonable discussion on this controversial topic and I am interested in knowing why some obviously experienced audio hobbyist who seem knowledgeable, yet still seemed so convinced amps could sound so audibly different when all the measurements on metrics known to impact on audibly different sound quality show they should at best sound subtly different when used well below their rated output capabilities in terms of voltage and current. Note: I always prefer not using "power" to avoid arguments about impedance and phase angles etc.

Please feel free to ignore this long post, won't hurt my feelings at all.
I would never ignore a post like this. And I appreciate you taking your time to write it that long. This is the reason I raised my question here, to get multiple opinions to develop my own and make a right decision in setting up my stereo.
I realize the separate components set up may be the best, if I had a dedicated listening room. In my case, when I purchased Denon 4700 when I was planning to drive Klipsch 5.2.3 set of speakers. After setting everything up my wife, who has an excellent ear, and I hated the sound. We returned the Klipsch, and got the Focals that we loved how they sounded in a show room comparing to other brands in the same price range, at ABT Electronics in "Chicago." We decided no to use surround anymore and left
L C R and 2 subs. The focals sounded great, but not for long, the sound quality started going down rapidly, and lots of unusual noises started coming out of different speakers and subwoofers. After a lengthy troubleshooting time with Denon reps involved, we determined that the AVR has gone bad. After repairing it under factory warranty I came to a decision to star using it as a preamp. I am not an electronic engineer, and do not have knowledge and tools to create and read graphs and other speaker/amplifier parameters. I just cannot understand why I cannot use only an amplifier portion of an integrated amplifier, and use the the whole thing when needed. Back to car analogy: my car has a wormer on steering wheel, but I will never be using it, because I live in a warm climate. It doesn't make my ride any worse. If I travel to a North part of the US, I may start using it because it is there. I didn't see anything wrong with using AVR for 2 channel stereo, but for some reason everybody is telling me that this Denon is underpowered for my speakers, and this is the main reason it sounds as it sounds. This is the reason I started exploring options with Arcam, which has a little more power than Denon. Some body mantioned that what I'm doing is a waste of time, I like doing it, and even if I endup using my Denon and return the Arcams, I still like the journey with listening different types of music, and do not consider it as a waste of my time.
 
Trell

Trell

Audioholic Spartan
I would never ignore a post like this. And I appreciate you taking your time to write it that long. This is the reason I raised my question here, to get multiple opinions to develop my own and make a right decision in setting up my stereo.
+1

Peng knows what he talks about.

Back to car analogy: my car has a wormer on steering wheel, but I will never be using it, because I live in a warm climate. It doesn't make my ride any worse. If I travel to a North part of the US, I may start using it because it is there.
The modern thing to do is leave this world and cars, and put our heads into the sky listening for strange sounds!

Like this one this recent incident on The Starliner spacecraft has started to emit strange noises:

The weird noise is 45 seconds in this clip:

 
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