Low volume on new Denon S660H receiver

[lovinthehd]

I'm going to just ignore the hyperbole regarding what you're deeming "nonsense" and the irrelevant observation about "other issues coming along with the volume raised" thing, as I see it's not going anywhere. We weren't TALKING about what side effects are attached to raising dB levels; at this point, you're being facetious.

Let's talk about how my "observations" aren't "fact" -- can you explain how that can be when I LITERALLY explained to you that the AVR compensated by LOWERING the overall available volume? I OBSERVED it. When I cranked one speaker to "+6dB," but not the others, the AVR's total available volume value was REDUCED by SIX.

How is this not fact with regard to you not believing that these systems WORK like this?

P.S. It's not nonsense when someone PREFERS something -- in this case, it's louder audio at a lower master volume number. These people observed that they had to crank the AVR's volume to extreme numbers to get "something" out of it, and they, like me, didn't PREFER that. To YOU, it's nonsense. Not to everyone.

Your observations are colored by poor setup. Preference is not the same as reference in any case, never said otherwise. Without measurements your claims are dubious in any case.

 

[John Lohmann]

Your observations are colored by poor setup. Preference is not the same as reference in any case, never said otherwise. Without measurements your claims are dubious in any case.

My God, man. This is incredible.

I don't need MEASUREMENTS to tell me how these systems work -- what are you not getting about this?

I LITERALLY added six decibels to a speaker, went into the master volume and cranked it up AS A TEST -- the available volume value was reduced by SIX. Every time I added dBs, this happened in reaction. I need scientific tests for that? Are you kidding?

And what do you even know about my setup at that point? How do you know it was "poor"? I said I was doing experiments to see if the overall master volume would be lowered in reaction to +dB boosts, and it WAS.

And you DID in fact suggest that places like Reddit are "full of nonsense," so you did, in turn, suggest that preference was "nonsense," too.

 

[lovinthehd]

I'm going to just ignore the hyperbole regarding what you're deeming "nonsense" and the irrelevant observation about "other issues coming along with the volume raised" thing, as I see it's not going anywhere. We weren't TALKING about what side effects are attached to raising dB levels; at this point, you're being facetious.

Let's talk about how my "observations" aren't "fact" -- can you explain how that can be when I LITERALLY explained to you that the AVR compensated by LOWERING the overall available volume? I OBSERVED it. When I cranked one speaker to "+6dB," but not the others, the AVR's total available volume value was REDUCED by SIX.

How is this not fact with regard to you not believing that these systems WORK like this?

P.S. It's not nonsense when someone PREFERS something -- in this case, it's louder audio at a lower master volume number. These people observed that they had to crank the AVR's volume to extreme numbers to get "something" out of it, and they, like me, didn't PREFER that. To YOU, it's nonsense. Not to everyone.

Did you observe it's actual max output or just by comparing "numbers"? Preference is one thing, claiming it has anything to do with reference is another. We're more about reference/measured response here rather than subjective experiences, particularly uncontrolled ones.....as I said earlier, YMMV

 

[John Lohmann]

Did you observe it's actual max output or just by comparing "numbers"? Preference is one thing, claiming it has anything to do with reference is another. We're more about reference/measured response here rather than subjective experiences, particularly uncontrolled ones.....as I said earlier, YMMV

Ummmmm....where did I EVER make ANY kind of statement that ANY of my observations or preferences had ANYTHING to do with reference? I even ADMITTED in my first reactive post to the OP that what I do and recommend isn't actually the "way to do it," but it achieves a louder experience at a lower volume number.

Yes, I observed the AVR's max value number -- on the Onkyo that comes to mind, the max volume was 98. It was reduced by SIX when I added six dB to one channel. Multiple AVRs I tested before and since behaved this way too.

When did I ever claim what I am suggesting here is BETTER THAN REFERENCE? I merely explained to you that the AVR volume systems DO in fact compensate when +dB values are added. They LITERALLY do.

Even if I DIDN'T observe the maximum volume number -- it wouldn't matter, because the max available volume dropped in reaction to what I did. What does the actual number have to do with it? It dropped in reaction by the same amount of decibels as I dialed in via the +dB trim.

 

[lovinthehd]

Ummmmm....where did I EVER make ANY kind of statement that ANY of my observations or preferences had ANYTHING to do with reference? I even ADMITTED in my first reactive post to the OP that what I do and recommend isn't actually the "way to do it," but it achieves a louder experience at a lower volume number. Jesus Christ....

Yes, I observed the AVR's max value number -- on the Onkyo that comes to mind, the max volume was 98. It was reduced by SIX when I added six dB to one channel. Multiple AVRs I tested before and since behaved this way too.

When did I ever claim what I am suggesting here is BETTER THAN REFERENCE? I merely explained to you that the AVR volume systems DO in fact compensate when +dB values are added. They LITERALLY do.

Again, the lower number means little. Live with it. Who cares if you like it higher particularly?

 

[lovinthehd]

Ummmmm....where did I EVER make ANY kind of statement that ANY of my observations or preferences had ANYTHING to do with reference? I even ADMITTED in my first reactive post to the OP that what I do and recommend isn't actually the "way to do it," but it achieves a louder experience at a lower volume number.

Yes, I observed the AVR's max value number -- on the Onkyo that comes to mind, the max volume was 98. It was reduced by SIX when I added six dB to one channel. Multiple AVRs I tested before and since behaved this way too.

When did I ever claim what I am suggesting here is BETTER THAN REFERENCE? I merely explained to you that the AVR volume systems DO in fact compensate when +dB values are added. They LITERALLY do.

Even if I DIDN'T observe the maximum volume number -- it wouldn't matter, because the max available volume dropped in reaction to what I did. What does the actual number have to do with it? It dropped in reaction by the same amount of decibels as I dialed in via the +dB trim.

More about why bother to sum it up quickly. Who cares what your subjective preference is?

 

[John Lohmann]

Again, the lower number means little. Live with it. Who cares if you like it higher particularly?

So no reaction to the fact that I explained to you how the systems work after you accused me of pretty much saying I didn't have a clue as to what I was talking about?

What does that last statement by you even MEAN? What do you mean "who cares if you like it higher particularly"? What does that MEAN? I said it was my PREFERENCE, and I thought it was the OP's, too.

So we're talking about PREFERENCE here -- yet you keep coming back with "the lower number means little."

We understand that. It's PREFERENCE.

 

[John Lohmann]

More about why bother to sum it up quickly. Who cares what your subjective preference is?

Ummmmm....because I'm participating in a thread that I thought I had a connection to based on what the OP had stated?

Was providing my opinions -- you're the one who initially jumped on me about "well it sounds like all you're doing is....." when I explained the lower volume value element, after Jim.

 

[lovinthehd]

So no reaction to the fact that I explained to you how the systems work after you accused me of pretty much saying I didn't have a clue as to what I was talking about?

What does that last statement by you even MEAN? What do you mean "who cares if you like it higher particularly"? What does that MEAN? I said it was my PREFERENCE, and I thought it was the OP's, too.

So we're talking about PREFERENCE here -- yet you keep coming back with "the lower number means little."

We understand that. It's PREFERENCE.

Because it simply makes no difference overall....

 

[lovinthehd]

Not something we particularly promote on this forum....

 

[John Lohmann]

Because it simply makes no difference overall....

That very well may be -- and, most likely, is. But I just prefer to see that lower volume value while the audio is kind of loud at that point on the scale. That's all.

 

[John Lohmann]

Not something we particularly promote on this forum....

That doesn't mean I can't have an opinion and try to help another member with something I suspected I related to personally.

 

[John Lohmann]

At any rate, I'm done arguing. Subscription to thread removed.

 

[lovinthehd]

That doesn't mean I can't have an opinion and try to help another member with something I suspected I related to personally.

Of course not, but helps when you specify the method involved rather than just a subjective opinion....

 

[lovinthehd]

That doesn't mean I can't have an opinion and try to help another member with something I suspected I related to personally.

Your're reading too much into it I think. Get deeper or not.

 

[TLS Guy]

My God, man. This is incredible.

I don't need MEASUREMENTS to tell me how these systems work -- what are you not getting about this?

I LITERALLY added six decibels to a speaker, went into the master volume and cranked it up AS A TEST -- the available volume value was reduced by SIX. Every time I added dBs, this happened in reaction. I need scientific tests for that? Are you kidding?

And what do you even know about my setup at that point? How do you know it was "poor"? I said I was doing experiments to see if the overall master volume would be lowered in reaction to +dB boosts, and it WAS.

And you DID in fact suggest that places like Reddit are "full of nonsense," so you did, in turn, suggest that preference was "nonsense," too.

I do think you are making a fuss over an issue you are going to have to get used to.

I have stayed away from getting involved with this, but I think you have forced my hand. The issue is changing standards for audio normalization in terms of distribution of media especially over the Internet.

Let me just clear the air and say that the number your volume reads is irrelevant as long as you can get it loud enough.

Now let's get to the nub of the problem which is audio normalization for the distribution of audio and AV media. These are evolving and this will bring about changes in level as to where you set your volume control.

The issue was brought to a head vai Dolby over control of the distribution of Atmos streams over the Internet.

Now there has been a standard for the normalization of audio streams. Historically this has been -18 LUFS. AES and the European Broadcast Union have come to the view that -18 LUFs is too loud and does not allow for the wide dynamic range afforded by digital media. In other words they wanted a lower normalization level to allow higher dynamic range without compression. This is especially important for classical music opera etc.

So EBU 128 was adopted in 2023 which lowered normalization to -23 LUFS. That will effectively lower average levels by 6 db. Now Dolby are vigorously enforcing EBU 128 of -23 LUFS for Dolby Atmos streams and insist streams not normalized to -23 LUFS be pulled.

At first I was concerned by this but have come to realize this was the correct decision. The BPO are now trending their stream to the same -23 LUFS as their Atmos streams. I note the BBC have trended their streams to EBU 128. I for one am now strongly in favor of normalization to EBU 128. When I now send out a Wav. file of work I have done, I now send it normalized to EBU 128. This actually allows for a much higher quality stream and essentially zero dynamic compression without saturation.

So you are all going to notice lower average levels on streams going forward. I am now convinced that this produces far better and more realistic reproduction, you just have to turn up the volume. Whereas the old streams used to have my volume set to -13 to -14 db. On these newer compliant streams the volume is now set to -7 to 9.5 db. The only downside of this change is that it requires rigs have superior signal to noise ratio. Otherwise low db passages will descend into the background.
The is the long version of why the OP has noticed a different scale setting on his newer AVR as I suspect the designers to be adjusting to new standards, which I expect to be enforced in the near future.

So the OP just needs to advance his volume control to get his desired spl. Resistance is useless, so get used to it.

 

[Trell]

Now let's get to the nub of the problem which is audio normalization for the distribution of audio and AV media. These are evolving and this will bring about changes in level as to where you set your volume control.

The annoying part is that the normalization level is different among the various streaming services, with the result that switching to another streaming service can give a HUGE increase in SPL.

Some time ago you recommended an European classical streaming service, so while that one was very nice the volume level was very low. As I recall that was due to Atmos for music, I think. The difference was huge.

 

[mtrycrafts]

The annoying part is that the normalization level is different among the various streaming services, with the result that switching to another streaming service can give a HUGE increase in SPL.

Some time ago you recommended an European classical streaming service, so while that one was very nice the volume level was very low. As I recall that was due to Atmos for music, I think. The difference was huge.

Just like a blue ray disc being mastered at different levels, one in particular that is 10dB hotter than others.

 

[Trell]

Just like a blue ray disc being mastered at different levels, one in particular that is 10dB hotter than others.

At last Blu-ray mastering for movies is supposed to have standardized volume levels, but I guess there are exceptions.

 

[mtrycrafts]

At last Blu-ray mastering for movies is supposed to have standardized volume levels, but I guess there are exceptions.

One easy one to compare is Bladerunner 2049. At least 10dB hotter. Check it out if you have a copy.

THX standards supposed to take care of the level standard but not many are still mastered to that standard.