Low volume on new Denon S660H receiver

[DJ in TX]

So I’m back at it. I just got my new Denon S660h receiver and set it all up. I have two paradigm book shelves (atoms v6, and a klipsch sub). Have been testing it all out but the volume is low. I have to crank the volume up to 50 for normal volume (not loud), and on 30 I can barely hear it. I see this mentioned in a lot of posts and different methods to fix. I want to understand it a bit more with your help. I see two different ways to change settings and would love some input.

1. Options>Channel Level Adjust — from there I can change the settings for my sub, front L, and front R individually. (defaults are all 0.0 dB and each can be set to +\- 12 dB).

2. Setup>Inputs>source level (default is 0 dB). From there I can increase to a max of 12 dB, can go as low as -12 dB, but just one overall change, not per speaker.

So my question is, what is the difference between these two methods and which do I change or do I change both? Is it the same adjustment or does one provide better sound quality when increased?

would appreciate any input/advice or recommendations for setting either or both of these.

Thanks
Derek

 

[lovinthehd]

For the absolute volume scale you're using that sounds quite normal. What are you comparing it to? Did you calibrate the system manually or via Audyssey?

 

[DJ in TX]

For the absolute volume scale you're using that sounds quite normal. What are you comparing it to? Did you calibrate the system manually or via Audyssey?

I used Audyssey, I guess it just seems strange to have to make the volume so high to hear it, and finding down the volume up button it takes forever. Not from an impatient perspective just that seems like it should not take so long to get there. Maybe it’s just me.

As for the source level adjust and the channel level adjust are you recommending I leave these at 0 dB? Is this pretty standard?

 

[-Jim-]

Hi @DJ in TX

The Options>Channel Level Adjust allows you to tweak individual speakers after setup, and really is not intended to boost them all. I typically use it to boost /cut Subs depending on program material. (A little extra Bass can be a good thing.)

The Setup>Inputs>source level is to let you balance out the various sources, so there's not a jump in volume when you say switch from a CD to TV source. Again, this is not there to boost overall volume levels.

Like @lovinthehd I'd say what you are experiencing is normal, and I wouldn't worry about where the knob is positioned, as long as the system goes as loud as I want.

 

[DJ in TX]

Hi @DJ in TX

The Options>Channel Level Adjust allows you to tweak individual speakers after setup, and really is not intended to boost them all. I typically use it to boost /cut Subs depending on program material. (A little extra Bass can be a good thing.)

The Setup>Inputs>source level is to let you balance out the various sources, so there's not a jump in volume when you say switch from a CD to TV source. Again, this is not there to boost overall volume levels.

Like @lovinthehd I'd say what you are experiencing is normal, and I wouldn't worry about where the knob is positioned, as long as the system goes as loud as I want.

Thanks for the input, I’ll just leave them alone and try to get used to the new normal.

 

[lovinthehd]

One note about your volume control, it's dB--based, and you can't necessarily compare the numbers to a previous unit. I set my avrs to turn on around 40 on your scale, as thats a relatively low volume. I generally only go up to about 60 on your scale these days. A swing from 30 to 50 represents a 20x increase in power....I wouldn't worry about the volume "number" until you get up to about 80.

 

[John Lohmann]

DJ,

Ironically, I recently (about a month ago) installed a Denon X2800 myself to replace an old Onkyo TX-SR605 that we loved (it started to fail on the HDMI OUT port, which was important for me so I could check the onscreen menus from time to time), and I have had nothing but issues in terms of functionality and loudness differences.

First of all, I would definitely use (even though it was suggested not to upthread by one member; he's not really wrong, per se, but let me explain why I'd recommend it) the Denon's Source Level adjust feature; in my old Onkyo, there was something similar called "IntelliVolume," and this balanced out the preamp levels for each source connected to the amp. However, many of us used it instead as a sort of input boosting stage, much like old power amps of the past that had the input sensitivity control; so, by setting, say, the DVD input to "+10dB" on this IntelliVolume scale, the overall sound from that input would be much louder at a lower master volume number. It's just what I preferred, even though it's never recommended. The newer Onkyos dropped this feature, which is one of the reasons I did not go with Onkyo for a new receiver (the other major one being that they also stopped the name of the sound mode and input to be displayed at the same time on the front panel, which was definitely a dealbreaker for me).

The Denons do have this Source Input leveling feature, and I use it for the "Blu-ray" input we use on the new X2800; I leave this where I left my old Onkyo's IntelliVolume setting, at "+10dB," and while this has helped, this new AVR STILL doesn't sound as punchy, aggressive or in-your-face as my Onkyo did. Now, in touching on what lovinthehd said above, it is indeed difficult to compare numbers to a previous amp -- but I totally understand the temptation and desire to do so, because I do it as well. Every night we use the system.

We're set up on the ABSOLUTE volume scale, not RELATIVE, and I calibrate all my AVRs myself without Audyssey or any other kind of room correction/EQ. When I set up the Denon, I plugged in the exact same speaker trims, crossovers and distances as I was using with the Onkyo, and this, in theory, should have been fine because nothing about our seating environment changed. Using the exact same calibration values, I am finding I have to turn the Denon far beyond -- arbitrarily speaking -- what I kept the Onkyo's volume at to achieve anything resembling a similar output.

For example: on the Onkyo's ABSOLUTE scale (the only one available on that particular model), the system was screaming loud (depending on the way a disc was mastered) at 37 to around 40, perhaps even lower. With the new Denon, the "40" mark seems to be where the soundtracks just begin to pick up steam and appear loud-ish, and because of the way the Denon's remote stages the volume increases and decreases via "0.5" decibel steps, it sounds like nothing is getting louder or lower unless you REALLY go to extremes with the button pressings.

I am finding that I truly miss either the Onkyo "house sound" or the way their units' amps were set up in terms of bias and gain; I understand your pain in all of this...to the point that I am considering boxing up the Denon and just taking a financial loss on it, and then reinstalling the old Onkyo and living with the malfunctioning HDMI out port (to say nothing of the headaches I have been experiencing because of the Dolby Surround and DTS Neural:X upmixing systems, which have been driving me nuts due to our simple 5.1 setup; see my thread about this).

Give the Source Input a try, though.

Oh, one other thing to bear in mind with regard to using this feature: some will argue that you will "overload" the signal by pushing channel levels or the Source Input levels too high into the "+dB" range, ultimately adding distortion and possible failure of the loudspeakers and/or amplifier, but from how I understand it, all AVRs have an automatic compensation system built in, meaning that for every "+dB" step you set, the AVR automatically decreases the overall available volume/power you can use. So, it's not like you're "adding" all these positive stages of gain onto your existing signal...the AVR simply compensates by limiting what power is ultimately available.

Some say this all comes out the same in the end -- and that's true -- but for some of us, myself included, it's about not having to crank that master volume knob nearly to max to get really immersed in sound.

 

[-Jim-]

@John Lohmann I appreciate your frustration, but one cannot expect the same characteristics in volume gain from one OEM to another. For that matter even from one Model from the same OEM year to year, can be quite different. The position of the knob is not relevant, as the concern should be to focus that the sound is being produced is as close to the input signal driving it. When you close your eyes, use the remote and turn up the volume, is the sound distorted when you reach the level you typically listen at? If not, don't be concerned with the position of the Knob.

If you can't live with it, then you can certainly punt the Denon down the road, but there's no guarantee that anything other than your half dead Onkyo will meet your expectations with regards to the position of the volume knob. Personally I couldn't live with a defective HDMI circuit, and that's one of the reasons I typically don't recommend Onkyo's due to their history with them.

Good Luck to you in whatever you choose to do.

 

[John Lohmann]

@John Lohmann I appreciate your frustration, but one cannot expect the same characteristics in volume gain from one OEM to another. For that matter even from one Model from the same OEM year to year, can be quite different. The position of the knob is not relevant, as the concern should be to focus that the sound is being produced is as close to the input signal driving it. When you close your eyes, use the remote and turn up the volume, is the sound distorted when you reach the level you typically listen at? If not, don't be concerned with the position of the Knob.

If you can't live with it, then you can certainly punt the Denon down the road, but there's no guarantee that anything other than your half dead Onkyo will meet your expectations with regards to the position of the volume knob. Personally I couldn't live with a defective HDMI circuit, and that's one of the reasons I typically don't recommend Onkyo's due to their history with them.

Good Luck to you in whatever you choose to do.

The only reason I'm not still using my Onkyo is because of the near-dead HDMI out port -- but we weren't using it to feed video from our disc player because it doesn't support 4K video passthrough. It's an old model that supported 1080p passthrough, and we were using it in an older system all these years ago to pass such Blu-ray video from an Oppo BDP-83 to a Sony SXRD rear projection display. We ended up continuing to use the Onkyo in our current 4K setup because there was nothing wrong with it (save for the video out acting up) and it served our non-Atmos needs with DTS-HD MA and Dolby TrueHD support. I only used the receiver's HDMI out in this newer system to check menu settings from time to time on a separate HDMI input of our Samsung 4K display.

The issues with this brand's HDMI boards have been fixed, by all accounts, so that's not -- or shouldn't be -- a factor in no longer recommending this brand. To my ears, no other AVR I've heard comes close to the Onkyo "house sound," but that's a preference thing.

I understand what you're saying about the volume knob, but my point to the OP was that I understand where he's coming from.

 

[lovinthehd]

DJ,

Ironically, I recently (about a month ago) installed a Denon X2800 myself to replace an old Onkyo TX-SR605 that we loved (it started to fail on the HDMI OUT port, which was important for me so I could check the onscreen menus from time to time), and I have had nothing but issues in terms of functionality and loudness differences.

First of all, I would definitely use (even though it was suggested not to upthread by one member; he's not really wrong, per se, but let me explain why I'd recommend it) the Denon's Source Level adjust feature; in my old Onkyo, there was something similar called "IntelliVolume," and this balanced out the preamp levels for each source connected to the amp. However, many of us used it instead as a sort of input boosting stage, much like old power amps of the past that had the input sensitivity control; so, by setting, say, the DVD input to "+10dB" on this IntelliVolume scale, the overall sound from that input would be much louder at a lower master volume number. It's just what I preferred, even though it's never recommended. The newer Onkyos dropped this feature, which is one of the reasons I did not go with Onkyo for a new receiver (the other major one being that they also stopped the name of the sound mode and input to be displayed at the same time on the front panel, which was definitely a dealbreaker for me).

The Denons do have this Source Input leveling feature, and I use it for the "Blu-ray" input we use on the new X2800; I leave this where I left my old Onkyo's IntelliVolume setting, at "+10dB," and while this has helped, this new AVR STILL doesn't sound as punchy, aggressive or in-your-face as my Onkyo did. Now, in touching on what lovinthehd said above, it is indeed difficult to compare numbers to a previous amp -- but I totally understand the temptation and desire to do so, because I do it as well. Every night we use the system.

We're set up on the ABSOLUTE volume scale, not RELATIVE, and I calibrate all my AVRs myself without Audyssey or any other kind of room correction/EQ. When I set up the Denon, I plugged in the exact same speaker trims, crossovers and distances as I was using with the Onkyo, and this, in theory, should have been fine because nothing about our seating environment changed. Using the exact same calibration values, I am finding I have to turn the Denon far beyond -- arbitrarily speaking -- what I kept the Onkyo's volume at to achieve anything resembling a similar output.

For example: on the Onkyo's ABSOLUTE scale (the only one available on that particular model), the system was screaming loud (depending on the way a disc was mastered) at 37 to around 40, perhaps even lower. With the new Denon, the "40" mark seems to be where the soundtracks just begin to pick up steam and appear loud-ish, and because of the way the Denon's remote stages the volume increases and decreases via "0.5" decibel steps, it sounds like nothing is getting louder or lower unless you REALLY go to extremes with the button pressings.

I am finding that I truly miss either the Onkyo "house sound" or the way their units' amps were set up in terms of bias and gain; I understand your pain in all of this...to the point that I am considering boxing up the Denon and just taking a financial loss on it, and then reinstalling the old Onkyo and living with the malfunctioning HDMI out port (to say nothing of the headaches I have been experiencing because of the Dolby Surround and DTS Neural:X upmixing systems, which have been driving me nuts due to our simple 5.1 setup; see my thread about this).

Give the Source Input a try, though.

Oh, one other thing to bear in mind with regard to using this feature: some will argue that you will "overload" the signal by pushing channel levels or the Source Input levels too high into the "+dB" range, ultimately adding distortion and possible failure of the loudspeakers and/or amplifier, but from how I understand it, all AVRs have an automatic compensation system built in, meaning that for every "+dB" step you set, the AVR automatically decreases the overall available volume/power you can use. So, it's not like you're "adding" all these positive stages of gain onto your existing signal...the AVR simply compensates by limiting what power is ultimately available.

Some say this all comes out the same in the end -- and that's true -- but for some of us, myself included, it's about not having to crank that master volume knob nearly to max to get really immersed in sound.

Still sounds like all you're doing is obtaining a lower number on the master volume dial....which in order to level out differences between different input sources, otherwise isn't very meaningful.

 

[John Lohmann]

Still sounds like all you're doing is obtaining a lower number on the master volume dial....which in order to level out differences between different input sources, otherwise isn't very meaningful.

I acknowledged that I am not using the Denon's Input Level adjustment feature -- and the Onkyo IntelliVolume feature before it -- the way it was really meant to be utilized, and that I'm using it more like a power amp's input sensitivity control. I merely suggested using it to the OP because he complained of needing to jack the master volume up some, unless I misunderstood him.

Yes -- all it achieves is a lower master volume number for a louder experience at that level, but I prefer the delivery that way.

 

[lovinthehd]

I acknowledged that I am not using the Denon's Input Level adjustment feature -- and the Onkyo IntelliVolume feature before it -- the way it was really meant to be utilized, and that I'm using it more like a power amp's input sensitivity control. I merely suggested using it to the OP because he complained of needing to jack the master volume up some, unless I misunderstood him.

Yes -- all it achieves is a lower master volume number for a louder experience at that level, but I prefer the delivery that way.

I doubt it actually gets any louder just by increasing the input level source, especially if the avr simply reduces max output accordingly (which I have read before, don't know how true that is). The amp still is what it is and unlikely any of the inputs aside from perhaps a tt would be so low as to need it, or not so low as to preventing max output from the amp. I do use the input level adjustment in my Denon for my tt to make switching among sources a bit more even. Using a volume knob's position on older gear was less comparable than most avrs, with proper calibration; avrs should be very close to one another using same sources if calibrated....

 

[John Lohmann]

I doubt it actually gets any louder just by increasing the input level source, especially if the avr simply reduces max output accordingly (which I have read before, don't know how true that is).

It IS true. I tested it with my old Onkyo 605 and some other AVRs before that.

It does APPEAR louder -- all you're doing is making the source appear to be louder at a lower master volume level. It's not squeezing any additional power out of the AVR's amp; like you said below, an amp is what it is.

The amp still is what it is and unlikely any of the inputs aside from perhaps a tt would be so low as to need it, or not so low as to preventing max output from the amp. I do use the input level adjustment in my Denon for my tt to make switching among sources a bit more even. Using a volume knob's position on older gear was less comparable than most avrs, with proper calibration; avrs should be very close to one another using same sources if calibrated....

Turntables are an issue on every amp/receiver, especially if you go from, say, the CD input to the phono input -- the phono input will always appear lower. So I can understand upping the Source Input value for the turntable...

But I use it with every input, even the Blu-ray player port, because I simply like more PERCEIVED output at a lower master volume level. I'm not arguing that this gets any additional "magic power" out of the AVR; merely that it can behave like a power amp's sensitivity control, wherein if you bring those controls up, the amp will seem to be more powerful at lower levels (in those cases, there may be chances of adding distortion if too high).

As an example, on my Onkyo TX-8555 stereo receiver in our two-channel system, all the components connected to this amp -- a turntable, CD changer, CD recorder and CD mixing unit, plus the built-in tuner -- are set at "+9dB" on the "IntelliVolume" system so they can appear "rocking out" in volume at low master output numbers on the display. Of course, again, vinyl tends to sound lower than CDs and even the tuner at these levels, but if it bothers me too much, I can always drop the other sources in response so they sound about even with the turntable.

 

[lovinthehd]

It IS true. I tested it with my old Onkyo 605 and some other AVRs before that.

It does APPEAR louder -- all you're doing is making the source appear to be louder at a lower master volume level. It's not squeezing any additional power out of the AVR's amp; like you said below, an amp is what it is.


Turntables are an issue on every amp/receiver, especially if you go from, say, the CD input to the phono input -- the phono input will always appear lower. So I can understand upping the Source Input value for the turntable...

But I use it with every input, even the Blu-ray player port, because I simply like more PERCEIVED output at a lower master volume level. I'm not arguing that this gets any additional "magic power" out of the AVR; merely that it can behave like a power amp's sensitivity control, wherein if you bring those controls up, the amp will seem to be more powerful at lower levels (in those cases, there may be chances of adding distortion if too high).

Tested? How? You measured output and distortion etc? Appearance means little, tho. TT cartridges just generally have low output, even mm type. I don't think it gives you more sensitivity "control" just moves it up front a bit. Some people do the same with external amps to get them louder sooner, but doesn't change the actual output capabiolities. YMMV.

 

[John Lohmann]

Hi @DJ in TX

The Options>Channel Level Adjust allows you to tweak individual speakers after setup, and really is not intended to boost them all. I typically use it to boost /cut Subs depending on program material. (A little extra Bass can be a good thing.)

The Setup>Inputs>source level is to let you balance out the various sources, so there's not a jump in volume when you say switch from a CD to TV source. Again, this is not there to boost overall volume levels.

Like @lovinthehd I'd say what you are experiencing is normal, and I wouldn't worry about where the knob is positioned, as long as the system goes as loud as I want.

Jim,

Something you posted here gained my interest, specifically with regard to the Channel Level Adjust under the Option button on the remote.

I played with this a bit -- and it gets kind of inconvenient because content actually has to be PLAYING, not paused, in order to access the menu -- and dropped my surround left channel a .5dB (because I find it a bit too hot, given I sit a bit closer to that in-ceiling speaker than the right...I never got around to tweaking it in the main setup menu) while raising the subwoofer level .5dBs. It didn't seem to do much, to my ears, so I raised them 1dB, and still I didn't really sense any change....

Should these levels be left alone (via the remote's Option button I mean) and adjusted solely through the main setup menu's manual speaker configuration? I understand the Channel Level Adjust via the remote is PER INPUT and that the main speaker adjust is GLOBAL, but I'm wondering, based on what you said, if these settings should be left alone going through the remote.

These newer AVRs have SO many ways to make adjustments now compared to older ones, it's almost dizzying; there are redundant subwoofer adjust controls in the main menu of the Denons, in a separate menu under the Audio section of the menu, through the Option button on the remote....it's maddening.

 

[John Lohmann]

Tested? How? You measured output and distortion etc? Appearance means little, tho. TT cartridges just generally have low output, even mm type. I don't think it gives you more sensitivity "control" just moves it up front a bit. Some people do the same with external amps to get them louder sooner, but doesn't change the actual output capabiolities. YMMV.

How did I test? You asked if the COMPENSATION actually works on these AVRs when you raise channel levels and Input Level, correct? I tested this by raising the channel levels to where I wanted them and attempted to go to max volume with no source playing -- the maximum available volume was reduced in conjunction with how much I dialed into the "+dB" trims.

You mentioned "appearance means little" -- yes, to some, or, I'd argue, to most -- but not to all. I just prefer not having to crank the master volume up so high to get engrossed in a program (a lot of others do, too, based on Reddit post complaints and those on forums such as this one). I'm merely explaining what the goosing of levels does to a signal, i.e. making the overall volume level appear "stronger" at a lower indicator mark.

What do you mean it "moves it up front a bit" -- do you mean these controls merely make the source volume louder? If so, yes -- I was merely comparing it to a power amp's sensitivity control of yesteryear because these systems are KIND of like that. Not exactly like that, but kind of doing the same thing.

I have stated, several times already, that what this does is NOT affecting output capabilities -- so I am in agreement with you. It's just preference some of us have to get louder at an earlier stage.

And, yes, turntables/cartridges simply have lower voltage outputs compared to other source devices, namely digital ones like CD players. THAT'S why I said I could understand why you use the input source level adjust feature for that input.

 

[lovinthehd]

How did I test? You asked if the COMPENSATION actually works on these AVRs when you raise channel levels and Input Level, correct? I tested this by raising the channel levels to where I wanted them and attempted to go to max volume with no source playing -- the maximum available volume was reduced in conjunction with how much I dialed into the "+dB" trims.

You mentioned "appearance means little" -- yes, to some, or, I'd argue, to most -- but not to all. I just prefer not having to crank the master volume up so high to get engrossed in a program (a lot of others do, too, based on Reddit post complaints and those on forums such as this one). I'm merely explaining what the goosing of levels does to a signal, i.e. making the overall volume level appear "stronger" at a lower indicator mark.

What do you mean it "moves it up front a bit" -- do you mean these controls merely make the source volume louder? If so, yes -- I was merely comparing it to a power amp's sensitivity control of yesteryear because these systems are KIND of like that. Not exactly like that, but kind of doing the same thing.

I have stated, several times already, that what this does is NOT affecting output capabilities -- so I am in agreement with you. It's just preference some of us have to get louder at an earlier stage.

And, yes, turntables/cartridges simply have lower voltage outputs compared to other source devices, namely digital ones like CD players. THAT'S why I said I could understand why you use the input source level adjust feature for that input.

I just don't get perhaps why the lower number or volume knob position is important. I think it started with some analog gear where the less twisting of the volume knob was deemed "better". I meant actual meassurements in testing, not a sighted test by ear at different times with different setup. Reddit is full of nonsense, too.

 

[John Lohmann]

I just don't get perhaps why the lower number or volume knob position is important. I think it started with some analog gear where the less twisting of the volume knob was deemed "better". I meant actual meassurements in testing, not a sighted test by ear at different times with different setup. Reddit is full of nonsense, too.

I wasn't mentioning Reddit because it was a font of accurate information -- I mentioned it to stress the point that I've seen the "issue" complained about a lot there and elsewhere. It's not "nonsense" when someone has a concern about something with regard to the way his/her electronics works; you may not "get it" in terms of why a lower volume value is important to some people, but it simply is. I was merely trying to relate to the OP, but obviously he got his issues sorted out.

I still don't know what you're getting at with regard to measurement and testing -- I am referring to the fact that when I have experimented with adding a plethora of "+dB" values to speaker trims or input leveling systems, and then tried maxing out the master volume, the available volume value was always REDUCED in reaction to those values.

You mentioned you weren't sure that AVRs even did this (the compensation aspect), didn't you? I was answering that.

 

[lovinthehd]

I wasn't mentioning Reddit because it was a font of accurate information -- I mentioned it to stress the point that I've seen the "issue" complained about a lot there and elsewhere. It's not "nonsense" when someone has a concern about something with regard to the way his/her electronics works; you may not "get it" in terms of why a lower volume value is important to some people, but it simply is. I was merely trying to relate to the OP, but obviously he got his issues sorted out.

I still don't know what you're getting at with regard to measurement and testing -- I am referring to the fact that when I have experimented with adding a plethora of "+dB" values to speaker trims or input leveling systems, and then tried maxing out the master volume, the available volume value was always REDUCED in reaction to those values.

You mentioned you weren't sure that AVRs even did this (the compensation aspect), didn't you? I was answering that.

It is nonsense if there's no actual basis to the complaint....

ps your observations aren't particularly "fact"

pps the thing with the available volume didn't come with other issues wasn't tested (you can get louder but not necessarily cleaner)

 

[John Lohmann]

It is nonsense if there's no actual basis to the complaint....

ps your observations aren't particularly "fact"

pps the thing with the available volume didn't come with other issues wasn't tested (you can get louder but not necessarily cleaner)

I'm going to just ignore the hyperbole regarding what you're deeming "nonsense" and the irrelevant observation about "other issues coming along with the volume raised" thing, as I see it's not going anywhere. We weren't TALKING about what side effects are attached to raising dB levels; at this point, you're being facetious.

Let's talk about how my "observations" aren't "fact" -- can you explain how that can be when I LITERALLY explained to you that the AVR compensated by LOWERING the overall available volume? I OBSERVED it. When I cranked one speaker to "+6dB," but not the others, the AVR's total available volume value was REDUCED by SIX.

How is this not fact with regard to you not believing that these systems WORK like this?

P.S. It's not nonsense when someone PREFERS something -- in this case, it's louder audio at a lower master volume number. These people observed that they had to crank the AVR's volume to extreme numbers to get "something" out of it, and they, like me, didn't PREFER that. To YOU, it's nonsense. Not to everyone.